The Prevalence of Tunnelling?

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UndeddJester
UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,421
edited April 12 in General Discussions

When he put out the poll, I was wondering what the results would be... Scott cooked in this video imo...

Pretty much exactly my experience with the game. I rarely see genuine tunneling... and was always confused to hear its a problem all the time and/or its the only things killers can do to win in high MMR or it happens most games.

I see it pretty rarely in my own games, maybe 1 in 10 I'd estimate, which is in line with Scotts observations, but I assumed it was more common in other regions or skill brackets... I can only think of 1 time in the last year where I got tunneled a lot one day to the point I put an anti tunnel build on (ofc it stopped after that because screw me right? 🤣).

I watch a lot of high MMR players games, and I almost never see genuine hard tunneling, usually tunneling is a result of survivor actions rather than killer actions...

So this video was pretty cathartic to watch... so does anyone else experience different? Or is this in line with what you see?

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Comments

  • DragonMasterDarren
    DragonMasterDarren Member Posts: 2,762
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  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,682
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    Maybe it’s an MMR thing? The average killer might not tunnel so in average MMR it’s not common.

    Low MMR killers though are less confident in their skills and probably be more likely to tunnel.

    Higher MMR killers probably don’t tunnel that much either because most times they don’t need to or feel confident in their skills. Except for the times where they are going against the best of the best, but that’s pretty rare given how poor matchmaking is (and because match making is so poor higher skill killers are more likely to get paired with lower skill survivors and they generally won’t tunnel because they don’t need to)

    So maybe that is it? I rarely ever see tunnelling and I think I’m probably in the average MMR range as survivor, and Scott is probably somewhere above average which could explain why he doesn’t see it at all.

    However the survivors who are in lower MMR ratings might see it more frequently and that could potentially be what’s causing this difference in experiences.

    The average survivor doesn’t see tunnelling that much, as shown by Scott’s data, and so they don’t talk about it because they don’t need to.However those that DO experience tunnelling are more likely to talk about it and therefore most discussion about tunnelling will be about how common it is simply because those who discuss it do experience it.

    Not sure if that makes sense…

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,421
    edited April 12
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    Is why it's such an interesting topic, because over the past year from being a newbie, I haven't really experienced excessive tunneling as a new player, nor when I've been playing with teammates who are new. Like it happens, but it's still not common at all in low level games...

    I've also played with some pretty high-skilled survivors and well known streamers, and I don't really see tunneling there much either... though it's maybe a little more common.

    Scott I'm sure is high MMR... I'm pretty sure Pulsar is high MMR based on how they talk about the game... so I dunno...

    There is like a culture surrounding streamers... maybe its streamers who know other streamers who tunnel, maybe at a certain MMR you start hitting the "streamer" and "streak" crowd, who do play monstrous meta and sweat incredibly hard... Literally those are the only types of players I see tunneling somewhat regularly.

  • not_Queef
    not_Queef Member Posts: 797
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    Maybe I'm missing something but how is an average of 21-40% insignificant?

  • not_Queef
    not_Queef Member Posts: 797
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    What I mean is that if tunneling is only happening 20% of the time, that's still kind of a lot.

    And the stats show the average is always above 20% no matter the time of day.

    It's certainly a lot more common than facecamping, which was addressed (sort of).

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,086
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    It could be an MMR thing, but it's hard to say. I will say that matchmaking seems way off when I do see hard tunneling in my games. It usually happens with a really bad killer, 1 or 2 solid survivors, and 1 or 2 really bad survivors. I usually only see hard tunneling in those instances. The killer farms the 2 bad players until they have time for the other 2 survivors to run them to Narnia and back.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,318
    edited April 12
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    The video matches my experiences as well. Very rarely ever see "actual" tunneling happening.

    As referenced in the video, I don't think people are lying, I just think many people have a misunderstanding of what is and isn't tunneling. "Most" people if you ask them will say it's intentionally targeting the same person to remove them from the game as fast as possible while ignoring everyone else. However, if like me, you rewatch the matches through streamers perspectives or even just reading post game chats for that matter, you'll see that people call almost everything tunneling. People just get upset that they got outplayed or lost and will say tunneling no matter what. Someone didn't die till 6 hooks? Tunneling. You just happen to run into the same guy as you're looking around the map? Tunneling. They use their built in BT off hook to body block you from going for the unhooker? Tunneling.

    It really is wild all the times I see matches called tunneling that aren't. Like I see people call the killer a tunneler like 10x as often as I see "actual" tunneling, at least. I think it's just human nature to want to make excuses for why we lose. I tend to play extremely fair, like go out of my way and cost myself games I could have won to play fair. No tunneling, no camping, no slugging, super low tier m1 killer, full non meta perks, only 1 slow down, doesn't matter, they will still complain about something. Anyway, off topic, I'm ranting a bit now.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,421
    edited April 12
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    You do need to remember these are blocks of 0-20, 21-40.

    That means everyone who says 0-20 (who make up vaste majority of the data) is being counted as 10%, and everyone 21-40 is 30%.

    If those people are all in reality <2.5% (which is where my personal number for me being tunnel is, it's ~10% where someone is being tunneled), that average drops quite sharply.

  • Bafugaboo
    Bafugaboo Member Posts: 402
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    It is the usual issue of I got killed and in this fashion so run to the forums. It is a thing that happens for several causations. Got tunneled, got background playered, got proxy camped, got slugged, etc. These occurrences just took a toll on the players who had it done to them. It is mostly a frame of mind that can be adjusted. Laugh and have fun and all of the negatives will pass.

    My personal gripe is running the killer for most of the gens then getting first hooked and left for dead.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 2,353
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    Jund has a strict & myopic definition of tunneling. It’s kind of like the proxy camping vs face camping argument.

    Tunneling to most people: hooking a survivor, going off to chase another survivor. The hooked survivor is unhooked. While I’m chasing another survivor I notice that unhooked survivor off doing something, so I break chase to go after them again specifically.

    Tunneling to Jund: Hooking a survivor, proxy camping, then pursuing the unhooked survivor.

    Both legitimate forms of tunneling but Jund appears to only consider the latter “true tunneling” and frames his poll in a way where only that definition could be used.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,953
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    This was a poll based on self-reported prevalence (so according to the arguments he made in the video, not reliable in terms of magnitude, because survivors overestimate how much they get tunneled). However the purpose of the poll was to compare between different time periods.

    So even though the actual figures may be skewed higher, they are consistent between time periods. It's purely to debunk any claims of "you probably got tunneled less because you play at x time, try playing at z time instead."

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,953
    edited April 12
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    It's not "strict and myopic" to suggest that tunneling should be defined by "the killers intention to eliminate a survivor" as opposed to the survivors subjective experience of "getting hooked soon after being unhooked". It's the only way to differentiate between "killer instigated tunneling" and "survivor induced tunneling".

    It's not always the killers intention to tunnel, or even awareness that they could be tunneling, even though the survivor feels they have been.

    1. Killer hooks a survivor and leaves the hook. Looks for other survivors, finds no one. Unhook notification goes off, killer returns to the hook.

    2. Killer hooks a survivor and leaves. Finds and hooks another survivor. First survivor is unhooked so killer returns to the first hook.

    A. The unhooking survivor stealths away leaving the unhooked survivor injured and crying.

    B. The unhooked survivor bodyblocks with a weaponised Endurance, or to 'make use' of DS.

    Four combinations there to choose from, all can be interpreted as tunneling by the survivor, none of them are intentional, or with any purpose to 'eliminate a survivor early' they're simply hitting what is in front of them, and to avoid doing so would be tantamount to throwing the game, similar to if a survivor had the opportunity to complete a gen but instead decided to 'let the killer kick it and go away to leave it to regress' even if they could easily avoid it.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 2,353
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    Others may believe different but I don’t think it matters if a killer ‘intends’ to tunnel when they tunnel. Tunneling is a deliberate action regardless of the circumstance because killers aren’t bots; they know which survivors they’ve recently targeted (barring every survivor wearing identical cosmetics). If you’re a tunneling apologist, which you may well be, that’s fine. But don’t @ me with some nonsense, Seraphor.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,421
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    Not accusing you of anything my guy, but... just so you know that one came across as "tunneling is always bad, and its entirely the killers fault if they tunnel'. Tunneling is not black and white always bad, and it is sometimes a reasonable decision, and/or even the only choice a killer has.

    The theory behind why not tunneling is good is, if a survivor is being chased, another is injured and in fear of being tunneled, then likely they will seek an ally to heal. If they do, that is 3 survivors currently not on gens. This is why tunneling to my mind is not necessarily the strongest strategy point blank

    I always try to avoid tunneling, mostly ccauseof this, and I like to make more of a game of DBD. Chases and exerting map control is fun for me; following a guy off of hook repeatedly is not... it's brain dead and uninteresting...

    However that said there are occassions where other survivors are hiding really well, and little too well, either running Distortion or other avoidance perks, and keeping hidden enough to make it so you can only find the survivor you've recently hooked. What exactly should a killer do here if they don't have things like Nowhere to Hide, Darkness Revealed or whatever? There have been a few occassions where I've literally not even seen survivors other than 1 for extended periods of time (I can only assume cause of comms and callouts), and while I've not wanted to tunnel, I've even stated out loud to myself "someone better bloody show themselves right now and stop this hiding crap, or I'm afraid Claudette is gonna have to die". I've made good on my word when it happens, if someone appears I shift chase, but if not, I have no choice but to tunnel.

    If you only know where a wounded survivor off hook is and you choice is going after them vs. wandering blindly into the map... well there is giving someone a bit of a break to play a more fair game, and there is actively playing stupid and ignoring a vulnerable survivor to walk off into nowhere to play hide and seek with a severe FOV handicap.

  • WolfyWood
    WolfyWood Member Posts: 307
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    These are all tunneling though?

    I think people need to stop bringing in morality to excuse tunneling, it should be very clear to anyone intelligent that this isn't a moral dilemma and that killer players aren't felons for wanting to play to win.

    The entire point is that a recently unhooked survivor shouldn't be such an obvious choice of target for a killer who wants to win. That is the entire problem.

    And only being borderline unhookable until they do something conspicuous will truly kill tunneling, obviously remove collision to prevent weaponizing it too.

    Having such a narrow definition of tunneling is counterproductive because the solution needs to be broadly applicable or it's useless.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,953
    edited April 12
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    Having such a wide definition of tunneling is equally counterproductive.

    If everything a killer can possibly do counts as tunneling, what can you possibly propose to 'fix' it? Prevent people playing killer?

    2. Killer hooks a survivor and leaves. Finds and hooks another survivor. First survivor is unhooked so killer returns to the first hook.

    B. The unhooked survivor bodyblocks with a weaponised Endurance, or to 'make use' of DS.

    This can 'feel like' tunneling to the survivor, but this is an example of the killer going out of their way to not tunnel. They have chased, downed and hooked a survivor in the mean time, but the first hooked survivor was not rescued timely. They have had to return to where survivors are (the hook) and then attempted to go for the unhooker instead of the unhooked, yet they have been prevented from doing so.

    This is not a hypothetical either. I've done this. As someone who actively avoids tunneling and usually tries to 2-hook everyone before eliminating anyone where possible, I've been in this situation, and ended up accused of tunneling.

    This is why the survivor perspective cannot be used to define tunneling. It means everything is tunneling. So it's no wonder it's so prevalent when it's every action a killer can take.

    The definition of tunneling cannot be so wide that the killers only recourse is to throw the game. It needs to be narrow enough that it leaves room for both survivors to counter it with good, smart plays (distracting the killer, leaving the hook, hiding, making distance, etc.) and room for the killer to exploit the survivors failure to do so.

    No less is expected for the other side. We don't call "repairing a gen to 100% in one go "genrushing". We don't expect survivors to repair 50% of a gen then leave to look for a totem or chest out of repect for the killer.

  • KerJuice
    KerJuice Member Posts: 1,851
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    My experience is different. I play in the US East, mostly in the late afternoon up until 1 or 2am. Either it’s myself or someone else getting tunneled out ASAP by a killer with Lethal Pursuer. No body blocking by unhooked; just the killer straight breaking off chase to return to hook to get the same player he downed a moment ago. No killer following tracks to only realize it’s the unhooked and might as well down them again. It’s just blatant clear as day tunneling. Rinse and repeat for 3rd down. Killer has to get that first survivor found, out the game ASAP. No wonder so many survivors run Distortion and Off the Record.

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
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    People gotta understand even if its not them being directly tunneled, their team mate being tunneled is still a problem. I am also tired of the excuse of its on the team fault if their team mate get tunneled, I say its slightly true but MOST times it is not true. I shall use an example and please once more this is solo que example because me and my swf we do not care if we are being tunneled we can loop and specially if its a killer we love going against be(loving wesker and trickster) please tunnel me!!!!. I do not even wanna do gens at that point xD.

    Back on topic if I unhook my team mate(new player obviously) we both make sure to move from hook and start our healing process but the killer still finds us even IF i literally take a hit or incase say I have 0 hooks and that person already have 1 or 2 hooks and go down willingly for the killer, there is a chance the killer will literally slug me and chase the already hooked person, so that is not my fault at all.

    A streamer like myself tends to be victims to be tunneled(which I again do not care), and most likely I may sound bias here but killers seem to bring mori offering once they see one or more ttvs load up to get try do the oh time to make a survivor angry and expose them on my ytd(people do this yes and even a certain content creator whom I will not say names does this alot).

    Killers may even tunnel for something petty like they do not like neas because they face one toxic nea they think every nea now is toxic. Even a glam that a person is wearing on a character a killer will tunnel believe it or not. Finally there is tunneling if ofc part of the LGBTQ community, you be surprise at the horrible names people have like LBGBTQ=mori/tunnel/camp/slug etc or incase of a survivor if LGBTQ=I will dc/sandbag etc which is sad. So there are several reason killer tunnel and it does not have to be just because gens are flying which is ofc this video dont state anything about that.

  • IamFran
    IamFran Member Posts: 1,605
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    Some people call tunneling to things which are not tunneling. Tunneling is actively looking for the unhooked survivor to down him again.

    • Being unhooked and the killer seeing you again before other survivors and hooking you again is not tunneling, he just saw you again.
    • Using the endurance effect to protect the survivor who unhooked you. Well, it is tunneling, but it is the most deserved form tunneling.
    • Some people even call tunneling when hooking you again before hooking the other three survivors before. Usually if you just hooked one person before hooking them again.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,536
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    You could make a case for the others, maybe, but the first one is literally just tunneling.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,536
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    "Oh boy I just saw this guy get unhooked, that's not tunneling though, he should've just gotten away"

  • IamFran
    IamFran Member Posts: 1,605
    edited April 12
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    No, if you are not actively looking for the unhooked survivor after he has been unhooked is not tunneling, you have seen him again. I'm not going to ignore the first survivor I see after a hook just because he is the same I hooked recently.

  • GolbezGarlandGabrant
    GolbezGarlandGabrant Member Posts: 839
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    Scott releases data and everyone is agreeing with it and into it.

    BHVR releases data and it gets scrutinized and rejected.

    I think the poll should have been more specific similiar to how BHVR does the player satisfaction.

    Also does this mean genrush doesn't happen as much as we think we do?

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,426
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    Direct tunneling to me is hard focusing one surv until they are sacrificed or otherwise dead, to the exclusion of all else. Number of gens done is irrelevant in this case.

    An example is being in chase, and immediately dropping it to return to the unhook, then follow the unhooked through any endurance/bodyblock/etc. and down & re-hook. Repeat until dead. This would include not really patrolling gens or commiting to a chase, once that unhook occurs.

    Now I feel many believe the killer immediately going back to the unhook is tunneling, whether the rescuer defends that surv or not. And that action of the killer stopping what they're doing and returning to the unhook (often strategically and/or tactically correct) happens most of the time during regular gameplay. In my experience of course.

    Obviously region and MMR and time of day all are interconnected as to who sees this type of tunneling frequently, as does all other forms of tunneling. But it's that feeling of being focused that sticks with survs the most, just like really bad matches will too.

    So what we're talking about here is an emotional response, plus definitions that are all over the place. Good luck sorting that out.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,903
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    Add a broad enough definition of tunneling to random chance and you could potentially see it a lot more.

    I think there is a lot of assumption playing into it too. If a player goes down then they must have been tunneled, if I don't interact with the killer much it means they are tunneling, a poor post game score is often a way players jump to a tunneling conclusion regardless of gameplay.

    There are a lot of secondary concepts that likely inflate the perception of tunneling.

  • ExcelSword
    ExcelSword Member Posts: 451
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    I agree with Scott on this.

    Lets boil this down to basics; why do people dislike being tunneled? Because people dislike dying when it feels unfair. But what exactly is unfair about that first scenario? survivor got unhooked, they presumably got healed back to full, and they are now progressing in the match again, either by doing gens or being altruistic going for saves.

    Personally, I only dislike getting tunneled off hook in the second scenario because it means that I have started my second or third chase at a disadvantage. I am injured, the killer knows where I recently was and I might be out of position. If I got put in the basement, it becomes very difficult for me to get out of that basement without giving the killer a free hit, so I am under more pressure.

    Survivors get 3 chases minimum to avoid death, but if you were able to get fully healed and then put yourself back in the match, it doesn't really seem like tunneling to me. I can see how it might feel unfair because your 3 chases came before everyone elses, but that would happen in a 12 hook game as well for who ever died first.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,953
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  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,903
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    That's a very unfair assessment of what was a reasonable point.

    At what point does it stop being tunneling if hooking the same survivor twice or should survivors just be 100% safe until someone, or even everyone, else gets hooked?

    Frankly both of those scenarios seem kinda ridiculous and highly exploitable.

    This is the problem of the broad buzz phrase "they need to fix tunneling." I'm yet to see any suggestion that would "fix tunneling" that isn't just an exploitable safety net.

    Also I should say that I don't really see a problem to fix with respect to a killer choosing whom to chase and survivors being under the threat of potential early elimination.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
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    Then you're tunneling, and have no issues with it. Not a big deal.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,903
    edited April 12
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    In addition to folks pointing out the the non-significance comes from comparing the trend across time points, it also looks pretty similar across region too. So not a lot of difference in perception of tunneling regardless of when or where you play.

    But the use of average here is a little misleading. We don't have counts of instances of tunneling, what we have is the average respondent answered in this bracket. So mean is not an entirely appropriate measure of significance here. The last bracket also include the 0 counts which likely overly influences any averages.

    If you want to take anything from the graphs as a whole, its that perception of tunneling is skewed toward the lower end, which means players in general, according to the categories of this survey, feel they are being tunneled in less than half of there games, with the greatest representation being tunneled in less than a quarter of their games.

    So if a player "on average" experiences tunneling in ~1-2 games out of 5, how big of an impact is it really having?

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
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    Maybe I'm an outlier in this, but tunneling itself isn't an issue. Its the frequency of seeing it at the start of the game that I have issues with. Its the same thing every time. I want variety. I want more skilled killers. Its been amazing Blights/nurses/weskers sweating and playing great… or a tunneling fool who couldn't chase down lil brudda.

    Tunneling certainly has a place in the game, but man 'm just burnt out trying to save the other three rando's. SWF seems like the only viable way to enjoy survivor atm, so maybe I should start looking.

  • Thusly_Boned
    Thusly_Boned Member Posts: 2,808
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    I think there's nuance there, still. Sometimes you see the last surv you hooked again first because that surv is just way worse than the rest of their team. I'll try to avoid hooking them again when this happens, but at a certain point you can only ignore a person so much when their ass is always the one that's out.

    As for the topic in general, my experiences matches Scott's - five years in the game at just about every MMR level and I simply have never seen hard tunneling at remotely close to the rate so many describe. And not just in my games, but the games I watch being streamed. I just don't see it. I'll have days where I might see it 4 times out of 5 games, but those days are massive outliers.

    And I do think that this is largely because people have such wildly different definitions of tunneling. And definitions aren't like feelings - not all of them are valid. I've been accused of it when I've hooked two (and even three) other survs between times I hooked the accusing party, just because I did it quickly. How do you even regard something like that?

    I feel like many people just feel like that if they aren't left alone for a certain amount of time, that they're being tunneled, regardless of what else is going on. Really oppressive killers will feel like they are omnipresent, and always on you, even if they're hooking everyone. I think that is why high mobility killers seem to be accused of it the most (though I think many Blight players also sweaty goobers who tunnel by design, which makes it feel like all Blights tunnel) It sucks to be on the receiving end of that, but it is what it is.

    And I also agree with Scott in that I think that many people who are saying that they are "always" being tunneled are telling on themselves for being bad without being self-aware about it.

    And just because it was brought up earlier, surv players who actually pay attention know when their teammates are being tunneled. It's not often a case of survs thinking tunneling isn't happening because it isn't happening to them. If one of your teammates just died and no one else has been hooked, you don't need an advanced degree to sort out that tunneling is going on.

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
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    This is exactly it sadly and I wish killers stop complaining about swf when they do not even treat solo que properly then have the nerves to complain about bully squads. I been building my discord up of swfs more and more cause even if i have a 3 man once they see me and my 2 swf loopers they then pick on the poor 1 random its sad.

  • JoaoVanBlizzard
    JoaoVanBlizzard Member Posts: 554
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    I don't think there's a problem with someone wanting to tunnel in the game, the killer has to play with all the resources he has available, it's even funny that there are killers who say the game is stronger for surv but don't want to tunnel, it's in the game, use it

    What I don't like is when killer complains when devs create anti tunnel features, but this helps killers to tunnel whenever they want, but they need to accept the consequences of doing this

  • IamFran
    IamFran Member Posts: 1,605
    edited April 13
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    The word "tunneling" is a reference to "tunnel vision" which is term that means focusing only in one thing and ignoring everything else, so if you are not actively focusing an objetive but by chance you see the objetive again and hook him/her then you are not tunneling, it is as simple as that, it is not debatable because that is the definition of the term itself.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 4,844
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    Just expanding on my initial comment after I watched the video.

    Agree with Scott that the discussion is very nuanced. Like, in general it seems to be tunnelling at 5 gens that's deemed frustrating by most, which is understandable. No one wants to queue up and not get to play. Tunnelling in late game though is deemed pretty acceptable and understandable. It's a strategy to employ when the game appears to be going in the survivors favour. So yeah, it's hard to discuss tunnelling when there's so many different interpretations and scenarios to consider.

    I didn't record my games, but fwiw the longest amount of games I kept stats on is 421. I only considered tunnelling when at the start of the game, though obviously I couldn't say whether it was survivor or killer induced. But that's where I got my average of 1 in 12 games. There were some weeks where it dropped to 1 in 10, and a day here and there where it was like 1 in 5 lol but overall it averaged about 1 in 12.

    The term was negativity bias, so I remembered right.

    Region appeared insignificant, so guess I'll drop that one.

    Time of day was interesting. Fwiw I typically play between 10am and 12pm. Give or take.

    MMR could play a factor but without people knowing where they fall it's just assumptions. I also typically hear "you HAVE to tunnel at high MMR", yet I also watch presumably high MMR survivor streamers and feel like I don't see tunnelling all that often in their games either, so... who knows.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,536
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    One notable thing Scott did not take into account, that I saw, was OTHER people being tunneled.

    I, personally, get tunneled somewhat often. Not every game, not infrequently. I imagine it has something to do with P100 and not being good lol.

    HOWEVER, I see tunneling more frequently than that. I might not know the nuance, but three hooks on one player before anyone else gets hit is a pretty easy case to solve.

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
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    Certainly just buzz me on my stream/discord I been working on building more and more swf to tolerate dbd lol. I am not sure if this site has dm options that Ill give you the information.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,139
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    Which one?

    • The bandaid fix of "just remove survivor collision"
    • The share hook states one
    • The completely rework the game one