"Nah man, Flashlight saves, Background player, infinite Flashbangs are balanced bro"

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  • WolfyWood
    WolfyWood Member Posts: 306
    edited April 21
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    I'm shocked Resilience isn't being complained about considering the same rhetoric people used for MFT regarding 'being rewarded for making a mistake' can apply to it.

    I am not surprised however, that survivors are told to get good and just never lose chase when asking for counters to four slowdowns with tunneling and camping. But telling killers to just equip lightborn and three slowdown is something that's controversial.

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
    edited April 21
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    @HolyDarky ofc you will say that as if killer mains dont do us vs them 95% of the time more than survivors, goodness you sure had alot of time to qoute so much different person to defend the same boring topics that where tired of seeing. Yall do not wanna run lightborn for flashbangs/flashlights too bad. You do not want to look around before picking up a down survivor that is on you. Also do you and some people do not get tired of saying this lame excuse of this vs them.

    I swear people do not know when to use that term anymore. Yeah when someone speak the truth its the excuse of=us vs them or this is not relevant to the topic where you can see from my nearly 10+ likes that am speaking the facts.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,494
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    Chaos like BGP is something the game sorely lacks nowadays.

    I believe the more technical term would be swing perks.

    Oh! Actually, furthering that thought. Maybe make BGP no longer and Exhaustion perk, stop it from stacking Haste and make it usable only until you get a save. Now you get one real use, but the perk isn't dead.

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,645
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    Best weekend thread >_>;

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,677
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    Not sure what swing perks means, sorry. I guess chaos wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that chaos in this game usually means being fun at the expense of being uncounterable but right now I don't think more perks like this is ever going to be a good idea.

    That idea isn't too bad actually. It would still be good but not overbearing anymore if it's not unlimited. Make flashbangs not work when facing a wall and this would be pretty fair.

    Only problem though is that it could be infinite easy sabos if you don't ever go for the save, but I'm sure they could find something for that.

  • Slurpin
    Slurpin Member Posts: 107
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    Yes, and I don't know why is this such a big deal. If killers want to counter pallet saves, flashlight saves or exhaustion perks, they could use what they have now. This perks were made specifically to counter Exhaustion or Flashlight saves.

    At the detriment of everything else. Prepare for an eventuality that is impossible to counter without perks and you get crushed in every other scenario (for the most part).

    Another use said this but both infectious and mind breaker do not matter to people with the BGP playstyle. Double that for infectious if they decide to run calm spirit just to also counter ultimate weapon (horrible perk but still, if they're determined …)

    Here's a very simple set of counters to PR + Pop + Grim:

    • Get better at looping. The longer you last, the less chance you have for the killer to interrupt gens.
    • Toolboxes. Sure, an item that you'll need to bring but incredibly strong with the right addons.
    • Repressed alliance. Hey, you proposed Blood Echo, let me propose this niche and barely useful perk too.
    • You just sit longer on a gen?

    Notice how my very first option depended entirely on the player's ability and skill? Yeah, you won't find that with the current BGP issue.

    To say that combo has no counter is as absurd as saying there's no counter to a killer chasing you off a gen. The killer, through hooking, earned a bonus to extend the game. The counter is to either be faster than the killer's ability to down or outlast the killer in chase.

    Versus - I have a survivor that purposefully died under a pallet or in the open and their friend is poised to save them with their 200% movement speed. Unlike the above, you CANNOT do anything about this unless you equip a specific build or are an obscenely strong killer.

    There'd be more perk variety if most weren't total garbage made only for youtube content or to lose.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,494
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    Well, Sabo's on a pretty big cooldown and toolboxes are finite and better used on gens, honestly more of an issue with hook spawns.

    Swing perks are perks like DS, NOED, etc etc that have the potential to swing the game.

  • LeFennecFox
    LeFennecFox Member Posts: 1,209
    edited April 21
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    Yes very much my fault a survivor intentionally goes down in the open or on a pallet and I’m playing a 0 mobility killer let me just scare them by looking at them. I’m not going to pretend the majority of bgp users get a save against me but you’re going to remember the players that use it very well.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,494
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    Well yeah but that's just negativity bias. You'll remember bad things well.

  • Veritere
    Veritere Member Posts: 37
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    Just use lightborn if it bothers you so much?

    "Oh but I shouldn't be forced to use a perk just to be able to get hooks and do my objective. Besides, sometimes I don't even get any value from it, waste of perk slot"...

    Funny, then survivors shouldn't also be forced to use perks to be able to do objectives/get more points/enjoy the game. Perks like deliverance, decisive strike, unbreakable and god knows how many more that you get no value sometimes just because survivor is afraid of killer camping or slugging.

    And yet, it's what people always say: Oh, you are being tunneled? Use decisive strike. Oh, getting slugged? Just use unbreakable, easy.

    At the end of the day, you just have to use the perk meant for that situation. Didn't get any value? Too bad, maybe next time you will.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,494
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    Some techs need to go, like Hug and Locker.

    Patching in invis walls is dumb.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 8,978
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    Ultimate Weapon literally is getting gutted even though survivors could run Calm Spirit to negate it.

    If a counter perk existing isn't enough to stop killer perks from getting nerfed, then survivor stuff is free game for the same reason.

  • vBlossom_
    vBlossom_ Member Posts: 386
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    Ultimate Weapon was nerfed because it gave absurd amount of value for free, literally nothing.

    It was comparable to old OoO that gave killer location by simply looking at them.

    But OoO have bigger drawback - it also revealed your location, while Ultimate Weapon had 30 seconds (🤡) cooldown

  • vBlossom_
    vBlossom_ Member Posts: 386
    edited April 22
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    No, when killer brings Lightborn, they totally eliminate:

    • Whole item, its addons,
    • Whole altruistic playstyles with saving someone via flashbang (or firecracker), flashlight,
    • Perks like: Blast Mine, Flashbang, Champion of Light, Residual Manifest

    It isn't "counter perk by perk", it's "counter whole playstyle by perk".

    And honestly it's kinda dull that Distortion - similar perk as Lightborn, that could totally eliminate aura - reading perks - don't work with "revealing location".
    Aura reading and revealing location have the same purpose - to show survivors on map. It would not be nice if Lightborn wouldn't protect killers from Flashbangs.

    Also it's killers that dictate what survivors should do:

    • I should bring Distortion because aura reading meta,
    • I should bring Unbreakable because of slugging
    • I should bring DS because of tunneling

    etc.

    And when killers c o u l d bring any perk to counter survivor saving playstyle, suddenly it's a big deal, because "I shouldn't bring perks that I wouldn't fully utilize in every match". Take a risk, it's a game.

    Post edited by BoxGhost on
  • hermitkermit
    hermitkermit Member Posts: 208
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    Doesn't this sound….familair? One side saying it isn't right that they have to bring a perk to counter something that feels unfair and uncounterable without a perk, the other side telling them that if it bothers them so much to just equip the perk and "git gud". Idk it just feels….hypocritical.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,419
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    I generally like Otz, but think he was way off on this take.

    Survivors, and killers, should both have multiple strategies that they can pursue. All the time spent rescuing each other could have been spent hitting gens.

    Also if new killers are frequently hitting coordinated SWFs who are perfectly hitting flashbang saves, that's a problem in and of itself. But at least they have far more agency there then the SWFs who genrush. More likely they are hitting SWFs who will frequently mess up the saves.

    It's also weird the focus in the video and the channel on the playing casual. Great, go ahead and play casual, I usually do as killer. But the expectation that you should be able to get the same result is silly.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,491
    edited April 22
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    I find this hilarious. The real bully squad isnt around anymore or at least incredibly rare. I think most people dont know how these groups actually look like and looked like. The group in Otz video definitely isnt abully squad. Just people that want to have a fun time.

    I hope that people finally realize that flashlights are actually more healthy for the game due to their nature of encouraging interaction between killer and survivor in a meta and mmr system, that encourages to have as little interaction as possible.

    I take your four -flashlight-squad over :

    • 3 med kits + one toolbox + strong addons
    • 2 med kits + 2 toolboxes + strong addons
    • one med kit + 3 toolboxes + strong addons
    • 4 med kits + strong addons
    • 4 toolboxes + strong addons

    every day. At least they want to enjoy the game as much as I do.

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,677
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    Yes both sides use this same hypocritical excuse. Rather than argue over which side started it and continue this cycle forever, wouldn’t it be better to fix the issues on both sides?

    Both sides hate having to run something to counter something otherwise near uncounterable but rather than admit it is an issue the other side would rather neither side get fixed and just use them as excuses.

  • burt0r
    burt0r Member Posts: 4,087
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    Thinking likes on this forum equals facts 😂😂😂😂

  • Feetusgod9
    Feetusgod9 Member Posts: 20
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    Solution to background player, FIRE UP. it makes you pick up 4% to 16% faster.

  • The_Yosh
    The_Yosh Member Posts: 145
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    Unfortunately, that is the way it usually goes with these content creators. They think something is OP and "problematic", but refuse to use any of the counters against them. They want to run their mindless 3 or 4 regression and maybe 1 aura reading.

    A similar complaint I see is about Windows of Opportunity. When I am playing killer, if I think Windows is losing me games, I will equip a blindness perk/addon. Every killer I play has access to a blindness perk, or addon. I don't go onto YouTube or the forums and complain so the perk gets nerfed. I just use my thousands of hours of experience to equip a perk that directly counters the problem I am having…

  • supersonic853
    supersonic853 Member Posts: 5,372
    edited April 22
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    The funniest part of this is there is not even a hard counter to this. You run lightborn. They just start going down on pallets to snipe you. You leave the person on the floor they could have unbreakable and power struggle. There's legit survivor plays with no counterplay from the killer side even with perks. Same case for something like buckle the people. If they can instant heal while your whiping your blade what can you do? Run stbfl? So let's see. I need a build of. Stbfl. Infectious. Fire up. Lightborn. To get rid of half of these no counterplay in normal gameplay scenarios. Here's the problem. Thats not having fun. I'm not having fun running the same 4 perks just for the chance to deal with these no counterplay scenarios. And even then they don't even solve the problems. Sure you can't be blinded. But you can still be pallet saved even with fire up. Stbfl might make you clean faster but depending on your stacks if it's first down they'll still get it off. And your running all this in hope that you can at least make these scenarios more manageable. Killers perks matter a lot to the overall gameplay. If they have to run all this stuff while survivors complained about having to run calm spirit to deal with ultimate weapon. I see a painful irony.

  • Rick1998
    Rick1998 Member Posts: 101
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  • The_Yosh
    The_Yosh Member Posts: 145
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    First of all, you are mentioning that there is not counter-play, and then directly giving examples of counter-play. You are also talking about "What Ifs" a lot here. What if a survivor brings this perk, and what if a survivor brings that perk. When you start talking about what if, then anything and everything is possible.

    Where are all these competitive SWFs with every "OP" perk that other people are playing every game? I have 3k+ hours, and it is swinging 60/40 towards killer lately. I'm not having these problems you speak of. Sure, every now and again I run into BU+FTP, or BGP+FB, but it is rare. Also, if people are going down on pallets, you can bait the save, or you can vacuum them out of it, or you can body block the side they are going to come from, or you can pick up straight away before they get in position. There is four counters to pick from alone.

    Honestly though, altruism perks are great, they give me interaction with survivors, and usually work against them. It also provides more of a challenge because I know I am going up against a SWF instead of just stomping 4 solo players. I have always said that there is nothing more boring than going up against four people who hide all game, slam gens, and escape. I'd rather have people swarming the hook, or going for pallet/flashlight saves.

    For reference, my main build is Ultimate Weapon, Game Afoot, Nemesis, Rancor on Bubba. I also play Wesker with Rapid, Corrupt, Pain Res, Bamboozle. Both of these styles I focus on chasing, but I might swap out Rapid and Corrupt for Pop + NTH if I feel MMR is getting to me. I find these builds to be great fun, and I really don't struggle getting 2 or more kills, in fact nearly all games are 3k+.

    I just don't understand why people aren't willing to solve their own problems instead of complaining to Behaviour to make the game easier for them. Did I think UW was too powerful? Yeah. Did I play Calm Spirit to counter it? You bet I did. Did I cry about it because it took a slot? No, because it directly counters a killer's slot. The same goes for Distortion, I ran that as a baby survivor before it regenned tokens and I loved it. I don't run it now because I play in a SWF and the less experienced looper runs it. I still think it is a great perk as it counters killer's perks and allows you to choose when you take chase.

    Overall, I guess I am just playing to have fun with chases. I've played where my only goal was to win, and I left each game stressed, miserable, or angry. That's not what I want when I am playing a video game, but each to their own. 🤠👍️

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
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    Yeah and flashbang counter play is to prevent wall looking up?

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
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    Apparently it is

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,491
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    You make no sense.

    The counter to a flashlight is to look at a wall or to chase a survivor away.

    BGP negates the second option because the survivor will still reach the spot in time despite being chased away.

    The counter to a flashbang is not looking at a wall due to them having a bigger radius and being able to be disposed (excuse my language) in the killers butt. The option of chasing the survivor away is also not possible if the survivor runs BGP, as mentioned before.

    Your earlier post implied that the counter a killer has to flashlights is annoying and that they should just give the survivor a free safe. That's seems like entitlement to me. A killer should have an option to avoid a safe after a potentially long chase.

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
    edited April 22
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    To make it clear yes the counter to flashlight is to look up at wall. The counter to killers looking up at a wall is using flashbang. Ever hear a counter for a counter?

    You run the perk that negates two perk and you look around before you pick people up if pallet save is a problem end of story.

    Post edited by Rizzo on
  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,491
    edited April 22
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    I play a ton of survivor recently. Just for you to know.

    Post edited by Rizzo on
  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,491
    edited April 22
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    It shouldn't matter what side you play more. What matters is, if your argument makes sense.

    Edit: congratulations for the p100 fengu.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
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    Specifically " If killers are forced to run one of these perks just to counter one perk/strategy then it's clear this is not healthy, especially when most of the mentioned perks are trash. It's the same as survivor picked Calm Spirit just to counter Ultimate Weapon.

    Bringing a perk to counter a playstyle/other perks is literally what DBD is all about. Don't want to be blinded? Lightborn. Don't want to scream because you dislike doctor? Bring Calm spirit. The mentality that 'I shouldn't have to bring a perk to stop X Y or Z is getting way out of hand. You SHOULD have to bring them to stop things you dislike. Or bring a 'build' and hope it chews through whatever the other team brings.

    Also, just to touch on the 'Us vs Them' bit, it can totally be healthy. People just do what humans do and corrupt everything.

  • Snowbawlzzz
    Snowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,419
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    You actually missed his point. could bring Lightborn, Infectious Fright and Fire Up at the same time and you STILL wouldn't be countering Background Player because it still enables 5-mile-away pallet saves and sabotages. The perk is a catch-all for preventing hooks. Every thing you bring to counter blinds will only counter one half of the perk, and the 200% speed bonus means you're actually incapable of fending off a pallet save because they can zoom in from 32 meters away for it. You don't even need to run a breakout build, this one perk can be shoved into any build to create unhookable scenarios.

  • 100PercentBPMain
    100PercentBPMain Member Posts: 490
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    This entire drama could have been avoided if social media didn't get hysterical over OG background Player just like they did with Lucky Break.

    Careful what you wish for.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
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    This entire drama could have been avoided if this game had players who weren't always at each other's throats. Its why I wish it never got as popular as it has: It's just a mess between player types now. And likely will ever be moving forward.

  • Rick1998
    Rick1998 Member Posts: 101
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    that's literally every single game on the market tough. For destiny it is titans vs warlocks vs hunters. For overwatch its healers vs tabks vs dps . Every game will get turned into a me vs you argument one way or another. People like to discuss and argue over things they disagree on .

  • Unknown2765
    Unknown2765 Member Posts: 1,810
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    Yep, but hardly anything that can be done about it, it dosnt feels good to be tunnled either, its still a valid tactics.

  • powerpuffCheryl
    powerpuffCheryl Member Posts: 39
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    I mean I wish I had players in my lobby that could actually use Background Player and flashlights lol.

    That playstyle is only present and/or successful in High MMR matches and at that point, I don't see the problem with running Lightborn.

  • Bardon
    Bardon Member Posts: 1,001
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    If ever there was a case of the pot calling the kettle black…

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,494
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    They literally admitted not many people use it effectively, they just didn't like it when it happened.

    Like yeah, no duh. I don't like it when someone pulls off a sabo play on me, but that doesn't mean I think it's overpowered.

  • Atom7k
    Atom7k Member Posts: 224
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    Why is it even possible to walk through the killer during pick up animation? I think this shouldn't be possible at all.
    Backgroundplayer is problematic to me because it allows you to stay far away and get the pallet save and still have enough haste left to get somewhere safe. It does require more then the ftp buckl up bs (I still wonder why that is still in the game) but essentially it has the same problem. It prevents a hook that was earned with no risk to the one rescueing.

  • jokere98
    jokere98 Member Posts: 536
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    "you look around before you pick people up if pallet save is a problem end of story."

    So, every time i down a survivor at the pallet, i need to go check 25m+ area around that survivor, am i right?

  • goodfriday
    goodfriday Member Posts: 209
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    Your absolutely correct so do not get mad if a pallet save happens since you just want go grab and go. Smart killers do that in 90% of my games anyway lol.

  • jokere98
    jokere98 Member Posts: 536
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    you know how much of an area to check it is?… you can't be serious

  • Souplet
    Souplet Member Posts: 319
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    I just pick lightborn on most of my matches and watch them cry in the post game screen

    Its always funny to see a wannabe bully squad still trying to flash you after they obviously noticed you have lightborn.