"Nah man, Flashlight saves, Background player, infinite Flashbangs are balanced bro"
This is why I run Lightborn 90% of my matches even when there is no flashlight.
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Background Player is the major issue I'd say, though flashbangs shouldn't be able to blind killers facing a wall.
Background Player existing means it's no longer enough to just chase a flashlight user away before picking up, you pretty much have to just slug the person you downed and go after the other survivor.
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I kinda wish people would just argue their points in their points instead of posting a long video from a CC I don't want to watch just to have a discussion.
Post edited by Rizzo on27 -
I mean, he could have just ran Lightborn and never ever picked up anyone ever if they died anywhere near a pallet
Sarcasm aside, the sooner BGP gets nerfed and Flashbang/Firecrackers get fixed so that you don't get blinded when you're not looking at them the better, Flashbang's been broken since at least Unknown's release and survivors are able to phase through killers while they're picking someone up, there is nothing more infuriating in this game then picking someone up and a survivor going "LIFE HAS MANY DOORS ED BOY" and teleporting in front of you, blinding you, and then teleporting to the other side of the map
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If flashbangs aint to blind killers facing a wall then it makes no sense the perk exist. At that point its way better to run flashlight. You know what since people think background player and flashbang is op. Let me use street wise/build last/champion of light and lightfooted with a green flashligh(greenbattery+low amp_). It cause me to ran killers for 3 gens+ alot. That is op because that flashlight combo let me have a perm flashlight.
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Yeah its so disgusting then they wonder why more survivors give up or more people play with swf or less and less people play this game. They need to remove the survivors out the game and turn into a killer vs killer only game ^^. I just cannot think of one thing that is NEVER complaint about on survivor yet killers make it seem survivors are the one who whines more. I cant even tell I seen any topic asking about a killer nerf other than a few unknown ones. @Spare_Them_Mori_Me
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Easiest way I avoid flash saves is with Infectious Fright.
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Exact, there is hardly anything to complain about from the killers since almost everything has been nerfed for survivors, so now the focus is shifted to useless things like Flashbangs (never a problem until now) or Distortion.
The only problem is Background Player, the rest is just sterile controversy.7 -
Technically the 'easiest' way is with Lightborn, but I get your point. 🤓
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Yes but it's a good perk in general and still is effective in most matches regardless of items or not. LB is a wasted perk slot if they're not going for that stuff.
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He could have equipped:
- Lightborn to entire disable this meta if this is the issue
- Some addond that inflicts exhaustion or show survivor auras - Freddy unfortunately don't have one, but there are killers that have those addons.
- Some perk that reveals survivors - Infectious Fright would be good in this case.
- Fire up to mess up with timings on picking up survivors
- Exhaustion - inflicting perks, for example:
- Blood Echo
- Genetic Limits
- Mindbreaker - this one even gives Blindness and it's kinda used
- Septic Touch
Yet he decided he didn't want to and did video in which he demanded nerfs.
If I don't like my aura revealed, I'd bring Distortion - counter killer perks.
Killers could also do the same if Flashlights/Flashbangs/Exhaustion Perks are the issue, to this day killers have 118 perks and there are really some other perks than Pop/PR/Lethal/NTH :)10 -
LB is a wasted perk slot if they're not going for that stuff.
Same with Distortion if killer don't have aura-related perks.
Same with Flashbang if killer bring Lightborn
Same with Blastmine if killer don't want to kick gens and relies on gen regression meta.
Same with All totem-revealing perks if killer didn't bring any Hex.
Same with Object of Obsession if killer is Undetectable
Same with Reactive Healing, Resurgence, Solidarity, if killer brings Sloppy and inflicts Hemorrhage
Why are you assuming that one side should have everything granted and other one should take risk with bringing perks that could "waste a perk slot"?
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I mean he said he could do all that and just hard tunnel a person and win off rip to make it have no chance. But it's about keeping it casual and just trying to have fun and do the normal back and forth. If your doing a hard counter like lightborn. Running a meta build and slugging or tunneling. You'd win very easily. But all that does is promote stagnation and hardcountering to something which can't be countered in a usual game with a build like he had or a killer. BGP literally removes all the necessary timing basically. And flashbang the intended counterplay (looking at a wall). If BHVR wants to promote stagnation and hard countering everyone could just do it. It just won't be as fun. And all the techs and mindgames and tricks you have to deal with survivors doing just won't register to a killer with like 1/10th of his hours. They will get hit by this over and over and the fov techs or the forced swings. Or the vault tech. Or the counter tech. And just not want to generally play at all because half of that isn't even intended gameplay. "OH I have to know if a survivor runs toward me and the side they are trying to force my hit reg to go that direction so I have to manipulate my camera to fix it" or "Oh a survivor might be waiting to run through my killer model itself when i finish vaulting so i better walk back a second to make sure" just a casual thing you have to learn I guess trying to have fun.
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He still gets a draw.
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Gets even better if you pair it with Forced Hesitation. (but you might get yelled at in the end game chat).
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I wasn't assuming anything.
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…and this will go over all the heads of those who try to comment on this discussion without watching the video.
Otz hit the nail on the head with his commentary here. This is exactly the type of trial that drives new and casual players away from the game.It wouldnt be as much a problem if MMR protected players from this experience, but for whatever reason a player of any skill level could encounter this at any time.
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Exactly. Us players who allready spend year(s)+ with this game we are kinda used to it because sometimes we all get wild matches or unbalanced stuff in the way.
Now imagine you are kinda new or returning player and you get such game where you get blinded on every single pick up and have to face every single second chance stuff in your way. Bro wouldn't prob last long if he gets anything more than 2 games like this and just says it's not worth it and leaves.
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I should try this 🤔
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No deliverance if you get hooked first
Most perks do nothing if you get tunneled
No one left behind adrenaline and hope do nothing if you die before the endgame. And now in solo que if your team does the last gen while your on the hook, you won’t get adrenaline
It’s hard to pick a consistent build in as survivor without just running sprint burst windows lithe resilience distortion
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This is the correct response.
I am a flashbang enjoyer myself, particularly Head On into Flashbang as it just makes me laugh. But they should not work when killers are facing walls as there is absolutely no way to outplay that when combined with BGP.
The only other option (other than LB) is to tunnel out every BGP using survivor but you often find out the hard way that they are running it.
I don't feel killers should feel like LB is now mandatory but I can totally understand why some do after experiencing the misery of a full BGP using Flashbang/flashlight squad
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Nerfing flashlights and flashbang is a mistake.
Nerfing BGP is also a mistake, but it's less of a mistake than nerfing the former.
Sucks to have another perk deleted, but I don't see any other option to satiate people at this point.
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Go to 2:24 in that video. He said he did not want to end the game early. He chose to play more casual for the sake of content, and then got frustrated that he allowed the survivors, who came in with the intention of using their perks to delay the killer, to use their perks. That is proof that you do not need lightborn since these survivor builds need time to actually come online. Otz gave them that time for free.
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"You must run the following to not have an awful time against things that aren't counterable as they stand."
So you have to bring god awful perks (for the most part) or perks with little use outside of stopping something that is impossible to counter normally?
You cannot compare this to distortion where your aura is revealed but you can still outplay the killer with looping and good game knowledge. Or Calm Spirit to counter Ultimate Weapon, as you could also loop and play (the issue was it did its job far too well for stronger killers with no good way to mitigate it).
Besides, these perks are bad for the following reasons:
-Lightborn: I've never needed this until BGP and Flashbangs caused this mess. This is a complete waste of a perk slot and a death sentence if I'm matched people of my skill level.
-Infectious Fright: A decent perk on some killers, but pointless when survivors have BGP. You won't catch them as they can stay far away and pre-run if you go after them. Sure, you can slug, but do you really want to encourage this sort of gameplay?
-Fire Up: Yeah unless all the gens are done, the changes in blinding timings are so generous it almost never matters. Even then, god awful perk just as bad as lightborn.
-Blood Echo: Beyond being mediocre, you actually have to HOOK people AND injure the saviours. The former isn't possible if you're getting flashbanged with BGP.
-Genetic Limit: Requires the survivors to do something out of your control first. Terrible perk.
-Mindbreaker: The only decent choice here. But then again they can also just walk for 5 seconds. Only useful to catch them when they're doing a gen, barely useful in this scenario.
-Septic Touch: Same as Genetic Limits.
Your suggestion that killers need to vary their builds goes against your whole thesis here: You MUST run at least one of these perks to not have to suffer something you CANNOT counter lest you simply slug the whole team. This is a horrible take and reinforces the incredibly unhealthy nature of the game's current state. I should not have to run specific perks to even be able to fulfil my objective.
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I don't think there's any design problem regarding BGP in what it does, just the haste effect duration is probably too long of an effect and could be reduced to 2 seconds from 5 seconds. Sort of on par with how overcome adds 2 seconds extra sprint time while put into an injured state, which is more than enough of a distance gain, so i don't see a reason why it can't be applied to BGP too.
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It's not correct in my opinion. Flashbang should be allowed to aoe blind a killer who is facing a wall. Flashbang requires 45 seconds on a generator minimum without items or perks. As a killer, you have 45 seconds to get the snowball rolling, which happens almost every game.
Lightborn should not negate an entire mechanic.
As I've said in other threads, the fact you have multiple survivors swarming means the game has hit a standstill. 2 survivors going for an altruistic save on a downed survivor means that at most, one gen's worth of progress is being done over 90 seconds. That is better slowdown that bringing 4 slowdown perks as killer.
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I find it hilarious, that back when there where the true bully squad, with their ridiculous loadouts and items, one was ridiculed for calling them out. Now, a streamer has one bad match and suddenly its a huge problem.
I personally think BGP creates a ton of problematic situations, due to it nullifying the normal back and forth that is usually in play when a survivor goes for a flashy safe. It creates a ton of uncounterable situations.
Im just sick of this: suddenly its a problem because X popular streamer had one bad game.
We are all players. If its a major problem for all of us, it should be changed. Not because one player had one bad game.
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1 Flashbangs are better since its way harder to tell if someone has a giant torch in their hand or a small grenade
2 They were always better since the buffer to blind buff.0 -
I think neither should be deleted or nerfed in my humble opinion. If they just fix the no collision when tossing a flash bang against the wall I would be happy. Leave everything else as is.
Survivors already don’t have a lot to work with and taking this away I think would way too much.
Do you agree, my friend?1 -
I usually just scout the area and find someone hiding before picking up, and even then if there’s a wall to face I’ll just face that.
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Yeah that is why I am so tired of these killers complaining about it prevents their look up at wall pick up technique. Cause if flashbangs did not do that, then they sorta would be worst than flashlights. That look up at wall technique is so annoying anyways.
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There's a really easy counter to the killer looking at a wall: Don't go down next to a wall. Only the most absolute madlads can pull off this technique, however.
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I think the pallet save aspect of BGP is more impactful.
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So you have to bring god awful perks (for the most part) or perks with little use outside of stopping something that is impossible to counter normally?
Yes, and I don't know why is this such a big deal. If killers want to counter pallet saves, flashlight saves or exhaustion perks, they could use what they have now. This perks were made specifically to counter Exhaustion or Flashlight saves.
-Infectious Fright: A decent perk on some killers, but pointless when survivors have BGP.
Are you sure about that? Basic killers have 32m terror radius, downs are unpredictable and even if someone wants to do save, they would go nearby. BGP isn't insta-teleport perk and from what I've played with it, if you are outside terror radius on pickup, there's very little chance to do save.
-Mindbreaker: The only decent choice here. But then again they can also just walk for 5 seconds. Only useful to catch them when they're doing a gen, barely useful in this scenario.
No, if they use exhaustion - and it's easy to use BGP when you don't want it to or don't use this perk value - they would have to walk around on map (aren't doing objective, are slower - easier to hunt down) or be perma-exhausted on gen.
You MUST run at least one of these perks to not have to suffer something you CANNOT counter lest you simply slug the whole team. This is a horrible take and reinforces the incredibly unhealthy nature of the game's current state. I should not have to run specific perks to even be able to fulfil my objective.
Yeah, PR + Pop + Grim is terrible meta, but I could counter it with… ah, yes, nothing.
You shouldn't have basekit counter to everything that other side brings to the game, if something bothers you (exhaustion perks, healing, boons, gen speed perks, survivors doing gens together, sabo squads), you should just equip perk that counters this playstyle.
BGP + Flashbang has terrible pickrates, and even if they are picked together, they have very bad escape rate.
Honestly, I don't know what is this fuss about, I think that some killers just got to top MMR and now they:
- Don't want to use anything to counter some SWF playstyles in High MMR
- Demand nerfs for everyone, because survivor once again have some variety in perk builds and don't simply run WoO/Lithe/Adren/DS
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"they wonder why more survivors give up or more people play with swf or less and less people play this game"
This narrative sure isn't reflected by current queue times, that's for sure.
Don't get me wrong, the survivor role definitely has it's issues and is in need of some help, mainly against tunneling and camping, but it's also not THAT bad. And just because the survivor role can be rough, doesn't mean they don't have any broken things at all.
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Infectious will not scare off a background player, if you try to harass them, the downed survivor will just crawl under a pallet and then you're really f-ed
Blood Echo activates on hook and will often be expired by the time you get the next down, I run it on LegionMindbreaker would not help you if the background player is following the chase
Septic Touch is actually useless and IDK why you even mentioned it
Genetic limits would rarely activate because it would require the background player to have recently healed someone2 -
Honestly after many trials, I think the best counter to background player is just to tunnel the guy using background player
It's so egregious and versatile between flashlights, flashbangs, sabos and pallet saves that you should just try to take that guy out ASAP and hope he's the only one2 -
For sure!
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There is a pretty common trend of wiggle/sabo/save builds being used not strategically but to have fun even if it results in a 4k at 5 gens. Big difference between funny swfs and bgp used for a crucial early down to stop pr/pop being applied before first gens get done or anti tunneling.
Infectious doesn’t matter unless you’re on the few killers that have the mobility to punish someone with bgp sitting a good bit away. Mind breaker isn’t doing anything unless they touch a gen magically before the pick up. Blood echo requires the bgp user to be injured during a hook which means it does nothing early game.
BGP can be easily saved by just not moving for few seconds after a pick up allowing you to run other exhaustions on top of it. Killer isn’t forcing it out if someone is on their back.
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Flashlights are fine. It’s just Background Player being overtuned that’s the problem. Flash bangs them selves would be okay as well if it weren’t for the fact you can’t look at a wall to counter them.
To be fair, Otz never demanded nerfs to this. The video isn’t saying these are overpowered or anything, he even says early in the video he could’ve won at the start by just slugging. He’s pointing out how games like that can cause newer players to quit because they would feel miserable.
Also none of those exhaustion perks would have been useful in this scenario. You can’t get value from Blood Echo without hooks, Genetic Limits and Septic Touch needs them to heal - which they aren’t because they are flashlight saving not healing, Mindbreaker needs them to be on gens which they clearly aren’t if they are going for a save.
Infectious Fright also wouldn’t work because he’s playing Freddy and has no Terror Radius to sleeping survivors.3 -
If picking up becomes so much of an issue in games, people will eventually be incentivized to slug more or the at the very least only hook when it's clear that the BGP Survivor is busy elsewhere. Not saying it's the Survivors' fault for this but the devs are encouraging the shift in mindset about hooking if they think BGP is fine.
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Best laugh I've had all day!
Wait, you're not serious, are you? If so, please explain why BGP is not problematic 'cause I'd love to hear that one.
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When you've been around as long as I have, you start to see the same patterns emerge, year after year.
As soon as we nerf BGP, it'll take about two weeks before we're flooded with complaints about gen rushing. I don't see any other option at this point to satiate people, but BGP does get people doing something other than gens.
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Nah men I would rather get "gen rushed" from time to time then to deal with sonic rescuers with 0 counterplay and low skill and bully squads.
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Played a ton of games recently with Knockout, Infectious, Coulrophobia, and Thana on Pinhead.
Gotta be honest… some of the most chill games of DBD I've played in a while.
Didn't have to worry about blind saves, pallet saves, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, or Off the Record.
I can't imagine the Survivors were loving it—between the box, thana, and the time I was saving by not hooking anyone, survivors didn't have time to do anything other than ping pong between downd teammates.But as far as universally viable builds that hard counter BGP, Flashlights, and Flashbangs…10 out of 10 build imo
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That's what usually gets said yeah.
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Except people aren't complaining about something that's been in the game for ages like Sprint Burst or Lithe, it's something that become problematic as soon as it was buffed. Of course people are suddenly going to complain about something that wasn't an issue before when it suddenly becomes one.
I agree that this community is always looking for something to complain about, but this doesn't really apply here when it's not really a 'flavour of the month' complaint like Distortion or Lightborn because it's only now become an issue.
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Yea it gets them not doing gens and instead denying pop/pr so the first few gens pop while the killer gets nothing. Altruism is the strongest thing survivors have and 4 man goofball squads tossing the game isn’t proper altruism.
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As someone who's been in ton of tunnelling/camping threads, this looks so familiar…
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In my opinion flashbangs are fine because survivors need time on generators to get them. Background Player is the real problem and they should nerf it back to 150%. With 200% speed the survivor can stay in an area where the killer doesn't notice them or cannot reach tean to threaten them with a hit or down while the survivor is near enough to get the rescue. Background Player is also extremely helpful for pallet saves and not only for Flashbangs. If we would only nerf Flashbangs, survivor would go down under paletts. With 150% survivors must come closer to the killer which would give them more risk. Current Background Player gives the killer a lose-lose-situation either the killer gives up the hook because he cannot pick up the survivor or he picks up and loses the hook. 150% would be more fair for the killer but still useful for survivors.
This Is the "Us vs. Them" mentality that no topic needs.
True. But there is a difference between the result and how the match felt. Just because I win a match does not mean it was a good/enjoyable match. Same goes for losing a match I can lose a match but still have fun.
Other users already explained the issues with your suggestions. But to add: If killers are forced to run one of these perks just to counter one perk/strategy then it's clear this is not healthy, especially when most of the mentioned perks are trash. It's the same as survivor picked Calm Spirit just to counter Ultimate Weapon.
Just because something has a low pickrate does not mean it's healthy or okay.
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I've tried something similar (Knockout, Infectious, Sloppy and Surge) on Pinhead and Sadako and have gotten decent results. I feel that on Killers with Secondary Objectives built in, the macro decision skill of the Survivors really gets tested.
On M1 Killers without secondary objectives like Trapper, Doctor, Wraith etc and if the Survivor team has good comms, map or brought anti slug perks (Boon exponential, wglf, unbreakable etc) The game outcome can become a 50/50 but I just use those opportunities to practice my chasing even if I lose.
Glad that you're having fun with the strat too!0
