Is using Equalizers Cheating? Hens vs Ayrun debate
Comments
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I absolutely agree with you - BHVR can't make up their mind if they want to prioritize one or the other. When you make a game where visibility and audio cues are heavily tied into balancing it makes no sense to not have a wide arrange of options to players don't use the excuse to use third party external programs.
Personally - I don't see it fully possible to balance the game with visual and auditory cues and mind and accommodate all accessibility features. One of them is going to suffer more than they should in terms of quality of life.
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Thank you for the correction.
I do not use nor am I familiar with third party programs, especially when it comes to its use in the game.Fortunately my lack of understanding regarding its exact features doesn't skew the definition nor how it fits said definition, so the core point stands.
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Except not really. If your goal is to make footsteps/breathing louder, you would accomplish the same thing (except better) by using a volume knob. And esp using an EQ, you're just going to lose clarity. You might hear footsteps louder, but where they are coming from/how far away/etc is less pronounced because you are also turning up other things in the environment at that frequency range.
In the most layman's of terms, using audio effects produces a lot of garbage in addition to whatever your perceived benefits are. You might make footsteps louder, but you're warping the sound of the game in the process.
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As with things like crosshairs, monitors where you modify the brightness and contrast to effectively nullify darkness effects, or using accessibility features you don't need to give yourself a greater advantage... these are broadly speaking things I would consider at least unsporting if not cheating, but they can't really be guarded against or enforced.
I'm a purist when it comes to games, and to me using 3rd party software, hardware or accessibility features to bypass balacing factors in the game goes against the spirit of the game and is something I would frown upon.
When it comes to Equalisers, like all the examples above… no one can stop you... But you're kinda lame for doing it.
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Actually still yes.
I am going to assume for a moment that everything you say is correct since I lack personal experience with the software and would be basing my information on the words of strangers. Given that you are correct, and EQ provides no tangible benefits to the user, I would concede that it is not cheating. After all, you make it sound more like a detriment to run rather than any sort of advantage.
But if that's the case, since this software is only a detriment by that logic, no one should even want to use it - nevermind be encouraged to use it.
However, we're in a scenario where people apparently are using it, to a degree prevalent enough to warrant discussion around it. These individuals are either inflicting self pain on themselves willingly or they found (or believe to have found) a benefit to using EQ. Given that this benefit, whether perceived or real, relates to a critical component of gameplay (audio), that benefit is therefore an advantage to the player.
In that case, those people would be using a third party program (condition 1), to obtain some form of advantage in the game (condition 2), which is not obtainable by the average player within the game itself (condition 3). I doubt the user's opponents are aware of this advantage (condition 4a), and I still do not see this program as whitelisted by the developers (condition 4b).
By this logic, unless the users really are secret audio masochists (which I somehow doubt), those users of EQ are still cheaters by both the general and DBD-specific definitions.
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TLDR:
if EQ is as bad as you make it sound, then no one should even want to use it; but people do, and are. In that case, it's safe to assume they are getting a benefit/advantage from its use. In which case, even the program has many negatives and restrictions, as long as an advantage is being derived that the average player cannot access, it is still cheating.3 -
Why can't BHVR just ban players for using any 3rd party program and / or changing ingame files so EVERYONE is on the same playing field?
"Using 3rd party software or other tools to gain any kind of unfair advantage that wasn’t intended by the game, except if they have been whitelisted by us."
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They say that because they have the idea that if it's something that BHVR can't do anything about, it's not cheating. Anything that gives you an advantage over other players is technically cheating, however the point becomes moot when it's something beyond BHVR's control.
Great example, many killer mains hate Discord, they say it's cheating. Is it? Well, yes it is. You are getting information from other survivors that the game does not intend for you to have. However, BHVR can't (and won't) stop us from using Discord any more than they can stop console users from using Party Chat. The fact that its accepted as something we have to deal with doesn't change that it technically is cheating by definition.9 -
If a killer uses a equalizer to remove the chase music and to make survivor steps and breathing easier to hear, I don't see any problems with it. Every other instance I'd say is cheating
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To me, personally, I would say that it would be fine to have available for players who are hard of hearing(but not fully deaf) if the visual terror radius accessibility setting wasn't already in the game. So, in other words, since BHVR already put something in the game for that same purpose I would say "yes" to it being considered cheating since there's already an in-game feature that eliminates the need for a 3rd party software that affects the game's audio. At the bare minimum it's a redundancy and at the worst it's cheating.
That's what I have to say about the topic.
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The visual heartbeat is only a benefit to the survivor role, and does nothing to address audio issues for killers (nor other audio issues for survivors at that.) If it did things like give visual representations for footsteps (from all sources,) as well as grunts/heavy breathing/GF's cloak/etc, then you would have a point (and I would love to see the setting be expanded upon for more auditory information for both sides.)
There is a lot of information that someone (with a condition like, say, APD) can find near impossible to properly identify in the game's audio balancing, especially in a timely manner.
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lol @ everyone saying "but I use an equalizer for this reason" or "but gaming gear", not understanding the argument.
Some very sweaty spirit players use programs that load in all DBD sounds and specifically equalize out everything so that they can hear footsteps and breathing. They even specifically target the relevant survivors in their match, so they will load in say, dwight claudette meg and bill audio to their equalizer program to target those sounds and remove everything else. This isn't some generic noise filter.
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Maybe? In any case I dont think it should be bannable. You dont get wallhacks or anything it just makes things that were already there more noticeable. As far as im concerned if you arent literally altering the gamefiles or lying to the servers its not cheating. If all we're going off is 3rd party program giving an advantage then discord should be bannable.
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Your high-contrast monitor doesn't change the colors to make key elements easier to see, or see through walls.
Your mouse only allows you to turn faster with less hand travel, it doesn't point you in the direction of a target.
Headphones only isolate your from the ambient noise.
So no, none of these thing corrupt the information from the game : they aren't cheating.
A software that modifies selectively the sound on another hand is cheating, plain and simple.
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There are monitors that brighten shadows so you can see better where you normally couldn't.
Equalizers boost or damper sound within frequency ranges so you can hear better where you normally couldn't.
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but it has one thing in common with the stuff he listed.
it cant be traced at all since it does not interact with the game but with the audio that your pc produces while playing
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but again, I believe it can be done with external sound hardware too? making it no different from gaming gear
cheating, not bannable, and the best way to fix this problem is to stop using sounds for balancing
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The purpose of the chase music is specifically to make it harder to track survivors.
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It is cheating to use 3rd party software to gain an advantage. That's the obvious answer.
What's less clear to me is why someone like Hens - who is often making videos about the competitive scene - actually endorses this form of cheating.
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Your position assumes only two uncharitable possibilities, again highlighting how little you understand this topic. As I discussed in my earlier post, equalizers can also be used to stop sounds peaking above a set level.
There are a lot of us, especially those with ASD, who struggle with loud noises or else traumatic sounds that can trigger anxiety attacks, in this case it would be the screams survivors make upon being hooked, which are both loud and potentially triggering.
So when playing on PC, I use an equilizer to stop any sounds from going above a certain volume… that doesn’t make anything else easier to hear, but it means I can spare my ears and nerves from sounds that are unbearably loud to me. It also enables me to wear headphones whilst playing DBD on PC, something I don’t risk when playing DBD on PS4 and Switch (and mobile).2 -
- You may be a famous content creator, but you may have the wrong opinions. This to me is cheating. It's the same thing as monitor filters that increase the killer's red spot. Obviously the game remains unchanged, but you have a good advantage
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I haven't used it yet, but I think it would be useful to have an equalizer when using killer chase background music, such as hug, which is very loud. If there is voice chat, the equalizer should be allowed since it is not directly modifying the game file.
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I'm not sure what the point of this response is, as the intention is largely irrelevant.
The user is still using a third party program (condition 1), to derive an advantage (condition 2), that the average player cannot access (condition 3). Their opponents are very likely unaware you have this advantage (condition 4a), and the developers have not whitelisted this program as far as I know (condition 4b).
It's very easy for people to justify things in their mind because they think they're some special exception, but they really aren't. As long as the conditions are met, which they are by general and DBD-specific definitions, its use is still cheating.
Now, does that mean you will be punished, or people will think less of you?
Maybe, I don't know.The developers have a long stance on just wanting players to have fun and being quite understanding about individual's needs, so I doubt anyone will be punished if I had to guess. The opinions of others should not matter to, but if they do, it will likely be a mixed bag of those sympathetic to one's mental health issues; whereas others will be upset that they are still cheating. If I really had to guess again, especially for those suffering from mental health issues, I bet those who need to use the volume controller to help maintain themselves would even be encouraged to do so.
I also feel the need to clarify that I'm not condemning the use of these programs. As stated, I do not think the developers care and I would bet, if pushed into a corner, they would even encourage its use, especially if you mention it helps with your mental health issues. I'm sure they just want you and others to have fun. As such, me worrying about what is right and wrong to do in this game would be a nonsensical and subjective train of thought that would eventually exhaust me.
I am simply answering the question stated in the thread, which asks whether or not the use of Equalizer is cheating - and the answer is yes, by definition, it is. The only issue after that is whether users like you can accept and be okay with that, or deny and justify it because you believe your situation somehow makes you an exception to that definition. Either way, that's not an argument I can (nor should) be involved in.
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In case your curious what advantage I'm talking about, specifically lowering the scream volume is still a beneficial luxury that the average player does not have and can affect game play by reducing your own personal recoil and allowing an easier time for the user to stay in the game (which you fully admit to using it for).
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I can see both sides of the argument.
On the one hand, you are using an outside program to gain a competitive advantage, and some people are unable to do so themselves. That does sound like cheating. The game is built around sound so using something to make it easier could be considered unfair.
However, I can also see the other side. Yes you are using an outside source but you also gain a competitive advantage by using good headphones or simply having a good monitor. Some headphones have a built in equalizer, so is it cheating if you happen to be using one of those headphones? Is it cheating to adjust you TV or monitor colours/brightness or to use Discord to communicate?
I don't know. It's an unfair advantage but there's no real way to address really. Unless they stop balancing the game around sound.
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Direct cheating to me would be messing around with game files for advantage, but ultimately it's up to the devs to determine what goes or not. Now things like equalizers and filters etc. cannot be really detected let alone controlled by them, nor comms for that matter. How could they enforce anything along these lines?
Visuals and especially sounds are so important to DBD gameplay, and the devs have spent countless hours & resources to get the game where they want it to look and sound. Players going around all that purposely just feels wrong, and to those who cannot mess around with these things very very unfair. To someone on Switch reading for example about "this at 60 frames and that at 120 frames" it can feel downright criminal.
Sadly issues like this widen the disparity between the game experience across the platforms, which is already disproportionately large for DBD. But again, unenforceable.
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If sounds are produced by the game, then they are supposed to be heard.
Would you say turning the monitor brighter is cheating?
Using Discord to communicate is more likely to be considered cheating because it produces extra information.
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Exactly. That is most definitely cheating. But it's not something BHVR has any control over.
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I mean for a short time a certain MMO was doing a game-branded promotion with Razr who makes computer mice with all kinds of macro features, but then they started banning players who used those very game-branded mice's macro features, as the game does not allow the use of macros. Of course, this caused a huge uproar in the community, and so they ended the partnership with Razr. So technically BHVR COULD technically crack down on those using equalizers just as they could crack down on those using Discord, but that's a can of worms they don't want to open as other companies have done so in the past, and it didn't go well for them.
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they actually could not crack down on those programms.
since the program itself does not touch the game or its files but just the audio/video that the game produces there is no wayfor bhvr to even know you use a program. only if they would track every single program that runs on your pc while you play dbd they could do that and i dont know i that would be legal but im pretty sure most gamers would not tollerate that. and lets not forget you can get the same effect with hardware and what will bhvr do then? put a worker in your room while you play ^^
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People using adaptive technologies to participate to the best of their ability shouldn’t be considered an advantage because it’s being used to fairly compensate for a disadvantage.
Meanwhile, wallhacks, stretched res, using trainers or having a killer bot with multiple instances of Stridor play your trials for you is not fairly compensating and that distinction matters.
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Chase music cannot be eliminated using an equilizer. Chase music is not one specific frequency within the audio mix that you can isolate out. Footsteps too are not within a single frequency to which you can boost. To cut out lower frequencies could mean missing out on footsteps. Cutting higher frequencies means you may not hear breathing. Compresstion just normalizes all frequencies at the upper and lower ends.
I get the feeling people here believe an equalizer is a magical box that can demux the audio tracks and mute certain ones. That's not how it works. To say an equalizer is cheating is to say any device that produces a better audio quality over stock speakers is cheating.
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I agree such banning won't go over too well. Dunno about Discord stuff, but how could they do a thing about comms on the consoles? They're built-in and independent of whatever game is being played. I've been in a chat party where we were playing three different games! 😜
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I don't see how this is an argument, yes it's cheating and in my opinion it should be bannable but the devs don't see it that way unfortunately
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i dont even think the devs see it one way or another but they just cant do anything about it
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The devs don't care, they just let EAC deal with it and if they aren't caught by the system then the devs let it roll unless you're blatantly hacking and can be reported for something you did in game but if they aren't streaming it they could have you looking like Homer Simpson and make your breathing 10 times louder to where even healthy you're easily found and you'd never know
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Well it would be the same as with that MMO banning people for using mouse-based macro coding. Could they do it? Yes, 100%. They could absolutely say that using Xbox Party will get you banned, but that would **** off Microsoft and **** off pretty much every Xbox player, so it is absolutely not something they will do.
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This is actually where debates get super fun and occasionally raunchy, but I'm going to do my best to limit how much I type (but no promises).
So now we're actually leaving the argument of what constitutes cheating, and entering the argument of what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' to do withinin the context of cheating. The actual answer of what is 'right' and 'wrong' depends on the person, their perspectives, and their personal standards. As such, the debate becomes an eternal back-and-forth between two or more individuals with different perspectives/standards and rarely ever comes to a tidy conclusion.
But first, to respond to you directly: yes, the use of an external resource to cover up a disadvantage is a form of cheating by definition. To understand why that is, we have to understand why cheating is defined the way it is in the first place.
The reason for that is because competition, at its essence, is an activity between two or more individuals in an attempt to discover who is superior at that activity. This includes capitalizing on one's own strengths and covering for one's weaknesses, while simultaneously trying to exploit the other's weaknesses and avoid their strengths. The reason why competition is so exciting is because everyone is born with different strengths and weaknesses (some might be stronger, faster, calmer, more tactical, strategic, reactive, discerning, etc.). And it is the utilization of those various attributes to see which is superior that makes competition so fun.
However when someone starts using external resources to cover up their flaws or enhance their strengths, the integrity and purpose of the competition becomes challenged and even diminished. This is particularly true when the opponent has no knowledge of the use of those external tools; because they will (as they should) try to exploit those flaws, but then inadvertently place themselves in a losing position because of that.
This is why cheating has 4 parts to its definition:
1. The 'cheat' in question has to be an external tool (third party program in this case)
2. The 'cheat' in question has to give the user some form of advantage (diminishes the significance of one's natural strengths and weaknesses, which competitions are used to gauge)
3. The 'cheat' in question is not readily available to all competitors (so the average competitor cannot utilize it, creating an uneven competitive landscape)
4a. The 'cheat' in question is not known and consented to by opponents (which leads to poor decisions based on incomplete information at no fault of the competitor)
4b. The 'cheat' in question is not sanctioned by the competition's governing board (this is to respective the competition organizer's wishes, since they are the host)Now there is somewhat an exception to this, and that is when the competitive activity itself is specifically about utilizing whatever you can to maximize your rate of success at any cost. Survival is the oldest example of this, where every person, and heck every animal, does its best to do what it can to survive with only their conscience to limit them. A more modern gaming example of these competitions would be battle royales like PUBG where, even if not necessarily fair for someone with a gun to kill someone unarmed, the whole purpose of the game is to place yourself in those advantages situations however you can.
Even in the PUBG example however, because it is still a video game, the advantages you can try to take are still limited to what's available in the game itself. Third party programs, like here, are still cheating. The main I was aiming to get across however, was that there are definitely competitions out there where the individuals are encouraged to use whatever they can to succeed. Funny enough though, even in those situations where everything goes, these conditions defining what is cheating still applies. The reason they don't get violated though is because of rule 4a, where, in these types of competitions, everyone should be aware that there are essentially are no limits, and therefore the competitors are expected to expect the unexpected (that's fun to say).
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I went into a bit of a tangent in the last two paragraphs there, but they're relevant and fun so I opted to keep them.
Going back to the original topic:
So yes, using an external resource to mitigate one's weakness is a form of cheating because part of a competition is utilizing the opponent's weaknesses to come out on top. By removing those weaknesses, you provide yourself with an artificial advantage that violates the integrity of the sport since it's no longer an active gauge on how well you do as an individual. It also misleads opponents into making poor decisions they otherwise would not have made.
A great example of this is the use of shaders or even basic brightness adjustments as a killer. Competitive integrity is harmed by using these, since part of the many attributes that constitute a person's skill-set is their attentiveness to details as well as their ability to discern those details in the first place. By lowering the significance of these skills on gameplay, it becomes harder to correctly judge who is the superior killer in this instance, because we immediately give favour to those who excel in certain aspects of the game over others (like chasing instead of finding).
It's not only the killer players who excel at detail attentiveness and discernment that suffer from these competitive violations either, as the average survivor plays believing that what they see on the screen is how their opponent perceives things. Little do they know, hiding in what - should - be a dark corner of the map, is actually suicidal for them and leads to them making a critical error through no fault of their own. It's not just simply not fair to either party in this scenario, and that is what makes it cheating.
A similar line of reasoning exists for audio, but I went with shaders since visual benefits are easier to discuss and understand in my opinion.
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But circling back to the beginning, does that mean it is 'right' or 'wrong' to cheat by using external resources like shaders, brightness adjustments, EQ, or even discord communications to derive an advantage?
I cannot say.
It is understandable that people get frustrated by the use of these cheats since it does de-emphasize the importance of certain individual skills in the game. It is also equally frustrating when an opponent has these advantages and you are not aware of them, leading you to commit to an action that's only a mistake because you did not know your opponent was using them.
But on the other hand, this is both a business and a game, so inclusivity and comfort is just as important. After all, why support this game if it's not profitable, and why play it if it is not fun? The developers understand this, and that's why I will be surprised if they do anything less than encourage all but the most blatant and overbearing types of cheating. Though, because both stances for and against cheating have valid points, they're more likely to stay silent so as not to alienate either their competitive nor casual audiences (which I'd say has been their approach for awhile now).
So while I will argue to the death that the use of EQ, reshade, and whatever else is cheating by both the general and DBD-specific definition (until whitelisted anyway) since it violates the integrity of competition; I will not argue for or against its use, especially if it helps people with their mental health issues.
(that was a fun write up)
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Damnnn, Dwight with the PHD in Cheating!
This was an enjoyable bit to read. Thanks for taking the time to write it.I’m not even reading it in the context of your conversation, I just genuinely appreciate your analysis of cheating as a construct in competition.
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I know, and I don't like it to be that way, so removing it is fair
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Ultimately for it to be cheating it would be bannable, and thus would need to be enforcible. How can the devs enforce people altering the audio output? Even if they scanned for 3rd party software I can use a physical devise to adjust the audio to my pleasing before passing to my headphones. Ultimately nothing is the game is affected directly when using equalisers, nothing has been tampered with. It's not cheating because if they devs say it's cheating and don't enfoce it (because they can't), they'd look like a joke.
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Thanks!
I put quite a bit of thought into posts like this, so the acknowledgement is appreciated and I'm happy someone else enjoys breakdowns like this too.
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If you are using it for taking advantage it can be considered "light cheating". If you use it for reducing annoying sounds (survivor screams for example) then it is not cheating.
It is the same as the ReShade filters. I use ReShade for increasing the brightness a bit (only a bit for not losing the terror atmosphere, because the game is just too dark in some maps and you don't see nothing) and a sharpening filter for fixing the high blurriness of the TAA. But I've seen some people using filters which increase the brightness to a level in which you almost have to use sunglasses while playing and fiters for making the killer red stain too bright for detecting the killer more easily, it can be considered a kind of cheating, but not as the same level as a player flying or running at higher speed of course.
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At least gamma filters are relatively tame. You could in theory see things anyway. With sounds, you could remove all your personal noises, remove the noises from fires, reduce noises from gens. You could literally block any noise that is not made by a survivor. Like Diversion.
Its so, so much worse than just filters. Its closer to stretched res1 -
I agree with KayTwoAyy, this was super interesting to read, and very well put together!
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You don't like the rules of the games so putting them aside artificially is fair?
Do you always cheat when you don't like the rules of a game?
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Windows has built-in sound equalization options.
Better ban PC players.
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Very hard topic but for an ACTUAL reason no. If a hard of hearing person is using an equalizer I wouldn't consider it cheating. But then if the average joe comes along with no hearing problems and decides to play spirit and magically know where every single person is in the game despite not running and even crouching to lower breathing sounds and getting rid of chase music…. I would consider that cheating.
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Other games, such as CS:GO2, block ReShade for a reason. DBD is not a competitive game, or at least not to the level of facing each other face to face and avoid this kind of things, like having one player with a croshair and another one with an insane streached resolution. Everyone playing from home can modify the game in various ways to gain advantages and there is no way to avoid it as long as it is not detected by the game's anticheat, but obviously that doesn't mean it's ok.
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First question, yes, when people are playing in MY games, I like to have MY rules, simple as. If I'm playing as killer, which is the driving force behind the game (without killers, survivors wouldn't be able to do anything aside from gens, totems and chests), I believe that I should have a bigger say in the rules that are in place in MY lobbies.
Also, the second question is quite inflammatory, we haven't come to a conclusion yet if this technology is cheating or not, at least until the devs say something on the matter. I honestly see equalizers as the next logical step, we have had filters for YEARS, MAP SPECIFIC FILTERS and stretched resolution before that. What difference does it make if I mute some annoying sounds like chase music? We have arguably been doing and accepting worse things over the years, are we just going to throw all of that away because of sounds, of all things? I don't think so0 -
This.
If an EQ was as magic as people in this thread seem to think it is then I would have substantially fewer issues dealing with audio issues such as ground loops when doing live audio jobs — just make the EQ get rid of it! Yeah, it's not even remotely that simple.
There is no "remove the chase music" knob on any EQ. The music spreads across the entire frequency spectrum and overlaps with every single other noise in the game. The best you could do is find frequencies where the music tends to be louder than the sounds you want to hear and turn those down. While this can make footsteps easier to pick out, it will also cause parts of the chase music that occupy that same frequency space stand out a lot more, and without the context of the rest of the chase music frequencies, your brain will have a harder time telling what sounds are footsteps and which are the chase music.
I'm sure some EQ settings can confer some level of advantage but it's far from game-breaking in any reasonable definition of that term, certainly far less game-breaking than having comms and nobody had an issue with that even before the devs said they don't consider it cheating.
And… again… hardware EQs exist and aren't even that expensive. They are usually less convenient for sure, but convenience isn't really the point. We're also at the point where pretty much every major OS has system-wide EQ in some form, so this is something that nearly every PC player has access to.
Fun side note not relevant to this discussion: the DBD rules specifically talk about using third-party software to gain an advantage. Software that a user develops themselves is second-party software, so by the current rules any user is free to develop their own cheating software and use it.
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difficult to say without knowing exactly what those programs can or can't do. - If it's something that can also be achieved by calibrating your headphones in a specific way then no; it's not cheating. If it actually isolates specific frequencies and alters them similar to how some audio-software does it, then yes, it is. But I kinda doubt there's software that can do that realtime and without weird sound glitches.
It's almost like there's that debate in various sports; how over-engineered should shoes or bicycles or whatnot allowed to be? The one on a 6 kg carbon bike definitely has an advantage over the one on a 20kg steel bike - but that still doesn't mean the one carbon bike is cheating.
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