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New DS being used "offensively" why is it considered toxic/wrong?
With the new DS buff, many are talking about how they hate that people are using it as offensively instead of defensively. My question is why is it considered toxic to use it this way? I don't see many people talking about using a perk "wrong" unless it's about DS, I didn't even know you could use a perk wrong. It feels like a strat that people don't like, similar to tunneling or slugging, but it is still a valid strat, no? Not saying outright it's hypocritical I just don't understand how it's considered to be unfair or wrong when these other strats in the game are widely accepted and often encouraged. Thank you in advance for giving your explanations! Just trying to understand everyones point of view.
Comments
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DS is an anti-tunnel perk and it punishes killers who don't have the intent to tunnel. You're going out of your way to bait the killer and make them feel bad.
42 -
Killers don't like any perk that has an obvious tell that they were outplayed.
That's the reason why DH/DS are called crutch/second chance perks and NOED is called a 'comeback mechanic.'
I wouldn't pay it any mind.
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It's not. It's just the fact it's DS and it isn't completely booty cheeks anymore.
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I don't get the argument either. If the perk was only anti-tunnel it would have to be way stronger. If a survivor runs over and blocks with a styptic/dead hard/health state etc it's all a normal part of game play.
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Ohh, I'm more than happy eating a DS when I'm actually tunneling. Turn it up to 7 seconds. I have no issue with that. But get rid of bodyblocking with DS. That is not the intention behind it.
When I go out of my way not to tunnel and then I still have to deal with DS, that's when I have an issue and that's when I will tunnel. DS is supposed to be a last line of defense against a tunneling killer, not a tool to make you a meat shield for your team mate.
Since the DS buff, I have tunneled a lot more. If I have to go through your DS anyway, then I have absolutely no reason not to tunnel you. Quite the opposite because a DS puts me behind schedule, so it becomes harder for me to win.
Yeah, right. I got outplayed when they mind gamed me into thinking it was safe to put them on a hook. I guess I'll just start slugging everyone until I have the whole team down?! Or do I need to bleed everyone out as well because they could outplay me by getting a kobe?
And for DH… Well, I guess pressing E to get to a pallet you otherwise wouldn't get to is an outplay now.
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- How are you "outplaying" a killer to force them to eat a DS or leave someone to just unbreakable or plot twist back to healthy? No matter what the killer does in that situation they just lose
2. You run most of the game with 3 perks and so when end game comes you get a decent power spike.
3. Old DH was a crutch. Distance on command is INCREDIBLY powerful and with it even giving you I-frames? It was just a stupid perk that went unchecked for FAR too long.
25 - How are you "outplaying" a killer to force them to eat a DS or leave someone to just unbreakable or plot twist back to healthy? No matter what the killer does in that situation they just lose
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I had two Survivors bait me with it by spamming themselves in lockers after they were unhooked last night. I didn't care as I was just there for the Bloodpoints.
As Survivor, I had a teammate pretend to Grief me so that the Killer would knock her down and pick her up again so that she could use her DS.
There's definitely some troublemakers in the fog.
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Ignore any of that. Killers think everything is a BM so they feel justified to, well…
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I think that's my question. The "it's not the intention". I don't think tunneling or holding 3 gens is the intention of the game either, which is why the devs have implemented some base kit things to try and deterr it. But both are still considered a valid playstyle, and are typically defended pretty strongly. I understand why they are, as it can be the easiest and most fastest way to win, but it feels like a double standard a little, and I'm trying to understand why it's not. Thanks for the reply, I see you in the forums alot. You always offer intersting perspectives :)
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Alot of killers will complain and say they were going for the unhooker but I think it's good, people need to stop proxy camping every hook they get and actually go try to protect the gens and the devs are seemingly wanting to influence that mindset to leave the hook and go for the other survivors on the objective instead of sitting just far enough away the anti camp doesn't work and then cheesing a free down from a unhook, anyone complaining here is failing to mention that side of the deal that's causing the change in the first place , if people wouldn't play like that the devs wouldn't be making this change right now, as for people going across map and forcing DS that's due to the nature of the perk not activating after any interaction people have been doing that ever since in fact that's always been a thing since the existence of the perk
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I can understand it feeling bad, but the point of my post is more so, why are some strats considered okay and fair while others aren't? DS in question in comparison to tunneling. People acknowledge how bad it feels to get tunneled, not many deny that, just like I'm sure it feels bad to be baited with a DS and forced to take the hit. There's been posts for years about tunneling and how it feels "punishing", but most explain that it's not personal and to gg go next. Why isn't DS being treated the same?
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So OP, in this, there is already the decision made to tunnel. But, if you body block with DS, he WILL tunnel. See? So, again….
Just follow this rule and try to enjoy the game, because "Since the DS buff, I've tunneled a lot more." You will get tunneled because BHVR buffed a survivor perk. Its what you deserve for being in a trial.
But I am curious, what would make you go out of your way not to tunnel? Something has to happen in game? You just need to be in a good mood? Lemme know! @Xernoton
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Exactly my point, you discredit the thought that goes into both perks because its frustrating to not be able to pin it on anything but being outplayed.
Also, you were going to slug, bleed out, and tunnel anyways, this isn't really a threat anymore, I'd imagine most survivors are used to it by now.
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DS is intended to be an anti-tunnel perk, which is why the conspicuous action list was added. But the conspicuous action list isn't good enough, because many people are still weaponizing DS against killers that weren't trying to tunnel.
Using pre-nerfed Eruption to hold an extended 3 gen, was considered using a perk "wrong", which is why that perk got nerfed.
And the "feels like a strat that people don't like" statement doesn't work, because BHVR nerfed extended 3 gens and facecamping, and they were "strats that people don't like".
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For a long time, this game has been about four VCPTs overrunning one mediocre killer with a variety of stumpers and flashlights. Not surprisingly, the game has been around for a long time.
The M1 killer was dropped to an even lower position by the obsolescence of Butcher, STBFL, and buffed DS (by the way, have you forgotten BhVR's argument about Enduring being able to mitigate or not?)By doing this, you will only see Nurse and Bright above a certain rate band. Other than that, it's no wonder there are now too few playable killers.
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It isn’t necessarily toxic. It’s more that it isn’t the intended use of the perk and puts killers in lose-lose situations that feel bad for them and sometimes aren’t really avoidable, and isn’t really fair. It’s why DS + UB is a strong and popular combo. Usually it’s when you’re either bodyblocking or otherwise interfering with the killer while they’re trying to chase someone else (and thus not tunneling). Even if they slug you and you get up with UB, that gives the other survivor more distance for not a lot of gen time lost, as long as the other survivors are busy. If you do it properly it is more than worth it in terms of efficiency. If they eat the DS instead, then you have a bunch of distance on the killer and that other survivor is long gone.
It’s always been something you could do, but the previous DS was a lot weaker (and wasn’t really good enough for actual anti-tunnel, 3 seconds was a joke in a lot of cases) so using it aggressively was a lot more risky because it was easier for the killer to punish the strategy (after all, you can’t use DS twice). Now it’s a lot safer again like it used to be before 6.1.0, so it essentially boils down to giving too much value for a strategy that isn’t difficult to do and doesn’t really involve any risk for the survivor. I have no problem with 5 second DS for actual anti-tunnel. The problem is it also punishes killers who are not tunneling.
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To this day 3-genning, tunneling, slugging, and proxy camping are still regarded as valid strats., which they are because there's no rules against it. The Devs have tried to make those strats less oppressive by adding some base-kit features, but people were very upset about those changes and some still are because they are/were deemed and accepted as valid playstyles, and despite the changes both strats can still be used effectively in certain hands. Most times when facing against playstyles like this, people say it's nothing personal, gg and go next. I don't understand why DS isn't being treated the same. Thanks for your perspective
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Been running pyramid head to negate the effect of the perk. If people are gonna weaponize the perk then might as start slugging or countering it.
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Reasoning like this is slowly turning me into a slugging/tunneling killer myself, who has people trying to bait their DS against me as I spread hooks.
You simply get outplayed after all.
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i could not care less if you use ds as a weapon. pls jump into me stand in a door and force me to hit you but dont you dare to go in chat or the forum and whine like a little kid that the mean killer tunneld you or camped your butt when you where slugged for four minutes
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The point was there was never an intention to tunnel until ds was attempted to be forced. I think you misinterpreted something pretty heavily here.
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Good to know. I really don't see how I would avoid getting "outplayed" then. Tell me, what's my counter. Because if it is actually the survivor outplaying me, then there must be a way to circumvent it. Otherwise you would describe a lose-lose situation as an outplay which goes against it in any sense of the word.
Also, you were going to slug, bleed out, and tunnel anyways, this isn't really a threat anymore, I'd imagine most survivors are used to it by now.
I always love when someone else tells me things about myself even I didn't know. I thought going after anyone but the unhooked survivor was going out of my way not to tunnel. This is how I usually play. But in this case, I am not left a choice. Someone else made that decision for me.
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It's how I usually play. I know that getting tunneled out early can feel pretty bad because it cuts your game short and I am a firm believer in the categorical imperative. I try to play in a way that allows everyone to have fun because I wish that others play that way too. Or at least I wish they won't go out of their way to ruin the match for me (which tunneling is for many people).
Nothing needs to happen for me to play in that way. Something needs to happen for me to change my play style and DS used aggressively is just that. A reason for me to change my play style and tunnel that guy. They put me in a bad position, if I don't tunnel and they obviously want my attention.
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Because when used offensively it is too strong. When used to counter tunneling it is fine because it has a counter.
The people who use antitunnel perks "offensively" and use DS will do a few things.
Imagine you have a perk build of:
- DS
- OTR
- Dead hard
- Unbreakable
You hook them, then they get unhooked.
Now for the next 80 seconds, if you completely ignore them (in theory, the counter to anti-tunnel perks) you can't. The counter to OTR and DS, is to just not tunnel them, if you don't tunnel them, no problem. But, if they use the perks "offensively" then they have no effective counter.
Let's look at these as if there are no pallets or windows, and everyone just runs in a straight line.
What do you do when that unhooked survivor now forcably body blocks for someone else you are chasing. Lets say they get unhooked, you start chasing some other survivor, maybe you even hit them, then the guy who was unhooked just flies in (probably fully healed) and body blocks. Then you hit them, because obviously you do. Now you spend 2.7 seconds doing nothing and the original survivor gets 12 seconds of distance on you, and you keep going after them. Then, as you are about to hit them, the other person comes in and body blocks again, but they have OTR. Now that other survivor gains another 12 seconds of distance. Then they come in a THIRD time, and body block them and you down them.
Now, you have 2 choices:
- You pick up the guy you just downed,
- You ignore them and leave them on the ground.
If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds.
This means, without body blocking at all there would have been:
- 15.2 * 3 survivors = 45.6 seconds of generator progress
With this body blocking, now you have:
- 51.2 * 2 survivors = 102.4 seconds of generator progress.
And that is what you get for INTENTIONALLY GOING OUT OF YOUR WAY to NOT tunnel.
So what about the second option? Where you say, forget it, lets just tunnel them then if they want it so bad? Well, They land DS, stun you for 4 seconds (its 5, but the animation takes 1 second) gaining 21 seconds of distance. But now they also have dead hard, so you have to hit them again gaining another 18 seconds of distance. Then you can down them. This means you have
- (63 * 2 survivors) + 39 seconds * 1 survivor = 165 seconds of generator progress.
So, in typical game of DBD at high level, where GOOD teams of survivors will finish about 2-3 gens right around the time you land your first down (lets assume 2) That means they have 270 seconds worth of gen progression to do to win the game.
Without these perks being used offensively, they get 45.6 seconds of progress done, and the killer has another hook, and chances to have gen regression perks like Pop/pain res/ grim embrace to continue slowing the game down.
WITH these perks, even if you take the optimal solution of 100% completely ignoring them? Now survivors only have 170 seconds of progress left. So little that they could literally leave that guy on the hook and just power through gens to finish them up really quick, but certainly very quickly end the game. And if you do give in to the tunnel, they did 165 seconds of progress. which gives the survivors only 100 seconds left. Meaning that the game is probably going to be over in the next 30-45 seconds.
The point is. That when used defensively, these perks have an obvious counter, you just don't tunnel them. And you "keep an eye" on them, because if you want to tunnel, you can see when they touch a gen or do something, and know that they can safely be "tunneled". Or, you confidently know that they aren't working on gens, if they are worried you are going to tunnel them, but if used OFFENSIVELY these perks effectively have no counter, because you are pretty much screwed either way. Just a little less so if you decide to leave the person on the ground.
And the worst part of it? All 4 survivors can do this, this is only assuming A SINGLE survivor has these perks. Now imagine all 4 do, and you realize that you really don't stand a chance.
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I can understand where you’re coming from. I just still don’t see how it is any different than tunneling or slugging or 3 gens etc. You could say tunneling punishes the person being tunneled, but the reply to that is that it’s nothing personal and gg go next. You could say that slugging for the 4k is punishing the last 2 survivors who are forced into this cat and mouse game, using a slugged survivor as bait and left to bleed out for 4 minutes, but again I’ve seen the reply as it’s a valid strategy and slugging for the 4k is perfectly fine. Etc. My point is that this idea of something not being used as “intended” isn’t new, and when anti-face camping, base kit BT, when generator kicks became limited, people were very upset because they believed all were valid play styles that didn’t deserve to be changed, even if those ways to win were not intended to be used in that way. Those play styles are still strong and still defended and accepted to this day. But adding 2 seconds to the DS so it becomes viable as a defensive perk, and usable as an offensive perk, is not being accepted as a strategy at all. It feels like a double standard, and I don’t understand it.
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This is a great breakdown of it, and I'd like to add it's also killer dependent.
Nurse, Blight or Spirit? They can afford to eat the 5 second stun and catch up quickly in most scenarios. Other killers, not so much. If you have survivors running OTR/DS, they can do things like activate all of Hag's traps they find, follow an Artist and deny any anti-loop crows by running into them, or go as far as willingly step into one or two of Trapper's traps because if Trapper grabs them they get their DS anyway.
The buff didn't address this at all and lots of people warned BHVR of it. Something like restricting a killer's power for x seconds post 3 second stun or allowing killers to walk through survivors trying to bodyblock with it would have been a better step in the right direction. We already know good survivors were able to get value from the 3 second stun as is, and arguably 4 seconds would have been good too if it was accompanied by one of the two alternate changes.
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DS should be disabled on interaction with a locker, so that it can't be abused. BHVR is being typical BHVR having made such a ridiculous oversight. That stock BT should also remove survivor's collision, and BHVR still are not able to implement it due to the spaghetti code.
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The correct comparison is 3 gen and face camping. Both were considered “valid strats”, but BHVR nerfed them anyway because BHVR didn’t intend for killers to get that much value out of those strats.
The same should apply to DS, where the weaponizing should be nerfed, because survivors get too much value from it, and it’s not the intended usage of the perk.5 -
Basically it comes down to this:
3 second DS is too weak when used defensively (ie. for anti-tunnel), and balanced when used offensively. (I say balanced here as in, it still isn’t the way the perk was meant to be used, but it had a more appropriate risk factor if the killer eats the DS because it’s a lot easier for them to punish the offensive-use strategy.)
5 second DS is overall balanced when used defensively (it gives the tunneled survivor a proper chance to get away now, which it often didn’t do before), and too strong when used offensively.
BHVR saw that DS was too weak when used defensively (and it was), so they buffed it to a point where it is overall balanced when used defensively. But in doing so, they made it too strong when used offensively because there is nothing that prevents the perk from being used this way in a safe manner, and so it is frustrating to face when used this way. If it was only viable as a defensive option (ie. if there was some provision in the perk that prevented it from being used offensively), then there would be no problem because it could then be completely avoided by not tunneling.
As you said, this change is not being accepted or well received by a lot of players - it’s because there were other ways the perk could have been changed to avoid this happening (or even to at least reduce the likelihood this could happen) while still making the perk good for anti-tunneling like it once was. Instead, it just got buffed back to 5 seconds with no other change and it was already clear that this would be a problem, because it was a problem for the exact same reason before the stun duration got nerfed in 6.1. The only thing that is different now compared to pre-6.1 is it’s not usable in endgame anymore.
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If thats the case, I'll issue my apologies. But it just sounds like anything, EVER, is reason enough to do whatever it is killers feel they need to give a reason to it. And what gives more reason than an abundance of no reasons at all? Making everything a reason!
Buffed DS? Time to tunnel. Survivor brought the invocation perk? Tunnel! (Sometimes by other survivors.. ugh). I -think- they tried to body block me. Tunnel. It will just go on and on and on. Even no reason is reason enough.
Just tired of the broken record. Certain things make the game unfun. Both sides seem to take pleasure in making that the 'meta'. Its just getting old and I guess its starting to wear me down.
So to be safe, ignore everything, and keep doing what you do, because why not?
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The folks complaining about this clearly weren't around when DS could be used in end game. Watching people teabag in the exit gate knowing the killer couldn't do a thing about it actually felt bad. Baiting DS during the match is fine. It's really not that big of a deal.
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If they are offering themselves up to you, then why does it matter when you can ignore them, just slug the body blocker, or give them the attention they want if you're inclined. They are not doing gens during all the time they try to catch your attention. And as long as you don't pick them up they can only bodyblock once with endurance.
Also, if I'm a surv with DS, and I have fewer hooks than the teammate unhooking me, then why shouldn't I be bodyblocking for that teammate? Especially in scenarios where the unhooker is on death hook? That's just advanced strategem.
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They could always do that to be trouble makers on live tho. The only difference is 2 seconds. Refer to my above comment. 2 Survs are not on gens progressing the objective and you know where they are leaving at max 2 doing anything actually useful for escaping (and thats assuming all survs are alive by that point)… sounds like an advantage you can capitalize on in your game.
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Oh yeah for sure. I was thinking of you this weekend! I played as The Pig to do her Tome 10 challenges lol. I got them all done! It was so different, being in control of The Scariest Killer in the game, The Pig 🐖
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What I'm seeing is the rise of DS Derangement Syndrome (DSDS). Players have all this hatred for DS that it clouds their judgment.
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Thank you for the very in depth response. I know from other posts I've seen you in that you and I probably have some different perspectives on this game, so if my replies or responses feel disrespectful or belittling in any way, please know it is not my intention. I'm not trying to pick a fight or invalidate your opinions, and if need be I will be the first to say respectfully, agree to disagree with no hard feelings because I appreciate being exposed to different points of view.
That being said, your post breakdown does show how this can be very oppressive in the right hands, with the right perks, and the right survivor team. I can definitely see how this has potential to be a very frustrating time waster, and gives alot of value if played correctly. However I can't help but feel as if the example you picked was the worst possible outcome, and sort've writing off any other ways a game could go by saying "a typical game at high level with good teams", implying it will always go that way, using the worst case scenario as the base-line comparison. For example I can say that, "because nurse on midwich with something like starstruck, lethal, knockout and infectious fright exists, you have to balance an entire perk or game etc. around her", when of course we know that while god-tier nurse mains do exist, you likely aren't going to face one every single match, and those that play nurse likely won't have that level of skill, therefore it's unfair to try and use her as an example as to why something should or shouldn't happen. I believe there's plenty of items, perks, killers, add-ons, offerings, and playstyles that can easily seem "op" or unfair under specific circumstances that can vary anywhere from gen placement, maps, the other competitors perks etc.
What I agree with from your post is that if everyone played as efficiently in your message, with a person running that exact build, against a killer that might struggle to catch up compared to other killers, that it indeed does not feel fun to play against. I understand why people are uncomfortable with this sort've thing being possible to do in the game, but my issue stems from the fact that many other things that are uncomfortable and acknowledged as so aren't treated the same. Tunneling, 3 gens, camping, slugging, things like that can also be extremely unfun to play against, and extremely effective, and often do not need special cirumstances or perks to work very well, and can be done by anyone ranging from Trappers to Blights (although one will have a much easier time of doing so of course).
For clarification, I'm not saying these other playstyles shouldn't be allowed, as in the current state of the game, all of them are viable strats that have very high success rates and aren't against any kind of rules. I used to feel very slighted about being tunneled or slugged and was so confused how something so strong and unfun was allowed, but after spending time in the community and playing more I realized that they're simply strats that work, and to just move on to the next game. (This doesn't mean I don't have ideas to change some of these things) But I disagree with how readily accepted and often encouraged those other playstyles are in comparison to this one.
To sum it up as basically as I can, I don't agree that the value you get from the new DS gives more value then the other strategies I've listed above. Equal? I suppose if every single survivor has that build and uses it as efficiently as possible, then yes. But not more. I think compared to something like MFT, where you got alot of value for just getting injured, this is much different than that, because you're not on gens, you're putting yourself at risk to get hooked again, and if the killer slugs to counter two survivors could end up going down when only 1 was going to, and that's still 2 less people on gens, plus the other who is going to have to unhook. It's wasting the killers time, but at the cost of two others time as well (the person using the DS offensively and the other person being chased). I don't feel it's "free", if that makes sense.
Sorry for rambling, hopefully I've explained it clearly. Anyway thank you for your time and our reply!
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Is it truly unreasonable that killers trying to spread hooks are a tad tired of these anti-tunnel perks being used offensively because survivors want constant value regardless?
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I agree with this 100%
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Haha, hopefully it was good things! Yes, Mandy is such a sneaky menace. I played against one yesterday on Nostramo Wreckage and she was appearing out of the fog like a movie monster! lol. Ended up getting us all; she did good. I am currently working on Slingers tome…i'm so behind 😂😭
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Its not the worst possible outcome. I'm tired of people telling me that "high level SWF kill squads are super rare" when i see them every other game. This is the kind of thing that happens to me multiple times in a single hour with teams exploiting the power of this perk and others along with discord. Just because YOUR MMR is low enough that it is rare for you to encounter them, does not mean we all have the same experience as you.
I'm also tired of trying to explain, that just because something is rare doesn't mean it is balanced.
Imagine a world where there was a killer only offering. And this offering did the following:
- All survivors are mori-able immediately with no hook requirements
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors have 50% reduced repair speeds
- All survivors have their aura permanently revealed to the killer.
- The killer has a permanent 150% movement speed increase.
Now lets say that offering has a 0.01% chance to appear in the bloodweb. This means that you would see this 1 out of every 10,000 games.
Would that offering be balanced? Would it be fair? It would certainly be super rare, so you wouldn't see it that often.
You can't just keep balancing for the "average" survivor player without doing something to these high level, high mmr survivors who often play in groups with discord. It cannot be allowed to continue, or you'll slowly kill this game, as has been evidenced by the slowly dwindling numbers that i, and many others, have constantly been saying for years at this point.
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I understand what you mean by this, as it doesn't feel "fair" to use this perk against a killer who wasn't trying to tunnel. I think the issue stems from the fact that many killers who do tunnel also don't do so because a certain survivor "deserved it" they just tunnel the first person they see at 5 gens and don't stop until they're dead. I could flip this around and say, "Is it truly unreasonable that survivors trying to play the game are tired of tunneling because killers want constant value regardless?" And while many do complain about tunneling, it is often met with a simple answer of, "It's nothing personal, just trying to win, gg go next" That's my entire point with the post. Both strats are valid, both are unfun to go against, but one is accepted while the other is not. That's where the double standard comes in.
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I never meant to imply that you personally never face survivor teams like the one you described, I was trying to explain how most of the playerbase doesn't play as optimally and efficiently as possible (and that's on both "sides") which is why I didn't feel it was a justifiable reason to revert the buff. If you are facing builds like this constantly and always facing a SWF then that means you're a very good killer! :) So congratulations on the skill, I'm sorry if it feels like such a sweat match for you every time, but I've heard that once you get very high in MMR that games like that are just to be expected. I hope you get more chill matches in the future.
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Maybe if it were any lesser-known perk, but DS has been hated since its inception. So even the tiniest whisper from the perk is amplified 50-fold. Other forum members have already posted about the double standard. It's been infamous for so long, and with so much content out there on it its hard not to already have a non-biased opinion of it, even if you've never faced it at its strongest. People already have their minds made up.
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Also sorry I accidently sent that mesage without finishing my reply. But on the post about the offering you mentioned, absolutely i agree it wouldn't be fair. I think the differnece is I don't think that this new DS gives as much value as the example you gave. I think even if played as efficiently as possible with the aformentioned SWF you talked about, that the game is still not unwinnable or broken. I think we just disagree on the amount of value this perk gives.
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Because people misinterpret or over interpret what these things are for.
DS is just a 5 sec stun if downed again off hook, its not some specific "anti-tunnel" mechanic and can be used as a player sees fit.
Word of advice if leveraging a mechanic more aggressively rather than defensively, don't complain about being slugged or tunneled.
A counter to a player using DS to bait a killer is to slug, just like a counter to a player using built in BT to block a killer is to down and re-hook them, AKA tunnel.
Its just gameplay. If you have DS and you get chased off hook and jump in a locker then that's just using DS effectively. Same goes for taking protection hits knowing you have DS up your sleeve.
I can see some issues with built in BT/DS combined because endurance is there to help you escape but running DS gives you an incentive to body block for greater effect. Which is a lil crap for killer players who aren't trying to target the unhooked survivor.
Even with that very minor quibble, we are still a long way from the old days of DS/UB lose/lose endgame plays.
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perk value bad, mkay
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Again this isn't a threat. Most killers are already doing this.
I like having the ability to play optimally and expect my opponent to do the same.
I think you should stop worrying about imaginary rulebooks and internet karma and just play how you want.
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When survivors are using decisive strike offensively it's totally obvious, dont pick anyone up after they've been hooked for 60 seconds just slug them to be sure.
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I agree with this. If a person goes out of their way to weaponize DS then slugging is the counter, and shouldn't be complained about. I just disagree that it can't be used in any way that someone wants. My reason for this being 3 genning, tunneling, etc. valid playstyles that may not have been intended to be used they way they have been but are still accepted. I believe this DS offensive tactic is just as valid as those. Good luck in your future matches!
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I don't think it's toxic, but it can definetly be annoying. Normally even if they bodyblock I would slug them, if they were just unhooked. If they jump into locker and force it, then I am going to actually tunnel them for it.
But doing it is not really toxic in my opinion. They just want to use their perk, I am going to kill them for it, but they can try.1
