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New DS being used "offensively" why is it considered toxic/wrong?
Comments
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So… are you complaining about having to actually play the role you queued for or are you complaining that a surv is giving themselves to you and you getting free ticket to slug and gain pressure?
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There isn't slug pressure if they have unbreakable????? You just wasted time and lost bloodlust and your potential second chase it's a net gain for them to do it.
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So you're saying your problem is Unbreakable itself is too strong and you do not know how to handle encounters with it?
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Maybe stop putting words in my mouth? There isn't anything to handle you are not the one in control when these perks are at play. They get value either way and you just have to deal with it.
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I'm sorry that happened to you, and I'm sorry you feel as if I'm "pretending". Many survivor mains view tunneling as toxic and unfair, and many killer mains view it as a viable tactic and strategy. Many people don't like tunneling or camping, and I would say everyone acknowledges that people don't like it, but they are still active and valid strats that are still defended because as it stands, is not against any kind of rules. I'm sure if you looked up some forum posts about someone complaining about being tunneled, you will find sympathizers but also those who explain that it is simply part of the game, and not to take it personally and to gg go next. It's safe to assume that the only reason DS recieved a buff recently is because tunneling hasn't stopped or has possibly increased, therefore even if the majority of the playerbase doesn't like it, it's still happening enough that the devs felt DS needed to come back into play. (Sorry had to repost this cause my comment didn't tag you for some reason)
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I think the last sentence really sums it up well and I agree with it. I'm not here to say that using DS offensively like this is fun. Many haved explained situations that it could be very frustrating to deal with. But the entire point of DS exsisting was to counter something that others also found very unfun and frustrating. Most people don't have an issue agreeing that DS is annoying and feels like a "punishment" to someone who didn't "deserve it", but some of the same people won't admit that a survivor being tunneled feels like a "punishment" and claim it doesn't matter if they "deserved" it or not because tunneling is accepted as a valid strategy.
It's hard for me to justify or sympathize almost because the reasons why using DS offensively is "bad" and why tunneling is "bad" are the same argument, but one is accepted and the other is not.
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I'm not putting words in your mouth, just reading what you say as I see it written. You say you feel that you are not in control when encountering these perks at play. I cannot relate and I would refer you to my reply to Xern with helpful tips to regain your control. There are also multiple resources on Youtube and Reddit i'd be happy to connect you with.
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I can undertand this. On one hand it makes sense to want to get value out of a perk no matter how risky the play, on the other it's a slippery slope when the only thing players think about is optimization over anything else, as it can lead to the most "sweatiest" games. Unfortunately though, I think this mentality has long been invovled in the game wether or not the buff to DS even happened. I would say that if tunneling wasn't so prevalent (which is killers trying to win as quickly as possible, so it's valid), then a perk like DS would have never even been conceptualized, let alone buffed recently. I said this in the post previous but I think it fits with this as wel, the changes to DS are an annoying "symptom" but not the "cause".
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You're being dismissive and trying to insinuate that I can't "deal" with these perks. Being able to burn through these perks against mediocre players and win is very doable especially on the right killers that's for sure. It doesn't make the situations it puts you in enjoyable or interactive though. There is no need to downplay how problematic it is especially for players that aren't you and I.
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I'm sorry but if someone uses DS "offensively" it means they spent the match not doing anything important, no its not toxic, Old i-can-do-gens-in-your-face DS was toxic
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But thats how games work. Things happen, and you react and deal with it. Getting value is a good thing for both sides. Getting too much value can be problematic, but in these scenarios, there is nothing over powered or being abused. You simply assume the survivors have the exact perks they need for the exact situation. And maybe they do. If so, they made good perk choices before the game even began. Why be mad at this? Becomes more than 'just a game' at that point and brings everything about it…. down.
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Let me also speak for everyone who is currently busy laughing at the insinuation that there is currently something problematic going on with any of the perks mentioned in this thread. If it sounds dismissive, it's because it's such a non-issue and anyone who's actually experienced these perks at their worst knows it's a non-issue. It's like lightly scraping your knee and making it out to be broken.
So other than being a minor inconvenience, where's the actual problem at? Are we just setting the bar at anything that makes us feel bad? Welcome to DBD, just like any other competitive multiplayer game where you're up against another person or team, some situations are not enjoyable. It happens on both sides. Interactive? I beg to differ. I'm not sorry to have to inform anyone who didn't know that already.
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You're right and I'm completely wrong there is no issue with any of those insanely strong perks that kill all perk variety for survivor. Time to go queue surv with OTR DH DS UB and cause minor inconveniences for some killer players.
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Statement 1) “Both sides of the game should be allowed to have things that the other side thinks is unfun”
Statement 2) “Nothing in the entire game should ever be nerfed, because the other side of the game has unfun things too”
There is a HUGE leap from statement 1 to statement 2.
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To be fair, if these perks do become meta then perk variety wasn't killed, as only DH was in the top 10% of survivor perks in the last stats. I understand if it's not a meta you really wanna deal with, I feel that way about gen regression as it feels like it's been the meta since the cob/eruption days. But for your joy of the game I hope it's not something you'll have to deal with to often if it's something you really don't enjoy.
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Sorry if what I said came across to you that way, as that's not what I'm saying, let me try to clarify.
In regards to statement 2) I don't believe I ever talked about how "nothing should ever be nerfed", because I simply don't believe that statement. Things that are game breaking, or blatantly unfair, such as old sabo when hooks didn't respawn or the twins in PTB, I would consider those unfair and deserving of a nerf. What I think we both disagree on is the value this new DS buff gives- I do not believe is deserving of a nerf, and you do. Simply put I'm under the impression that you believe it is overpowered, and I do not. So it's less a conversation about "why people are upset about DS being used this way feels hypocritical", which is the point of my post, and more about, "DS shouldn't have been buffed," which I do disagree with.
In regards to statement 1) Breaking it down as basically as possible I said that if one side is allowed unfun things then the other side should as well. I do beleive this is fair. If one side has access to something strong, so should the other. If you disagree with this, then I suppose we simply disagree on a fundamental level, as I don't see how 1 side having access to something the other side does not, is fair or fun in any capacity.
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Now you're getting it. Be sure to take plenty of notes on how clever and experienced Killers handle that build while you're spectating mate.
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I do agree with pretty much everything said there, but the one statement I disagree on is "one is accepted and the other is not".
Most killers I know here in the forums generally consider tunneling to be boring. A fair number consider it unnecessary and those that do tunnel and feel they need to to win tend to lament that other strategies available to killer have slowly been made weaker and weaker. I fall in the prior category; I don't think tunneling is necessary, and deem it to be a risky strategy that puts the game on a dice roll of depending on how well that specific survivor/team works around the tunnel, and isn't fun for anyone involved.
Decisive Strike being used offensively is in the same camp to me. I don't believe it is an optimal way to play, and just like tunneling is a dice roll. It CAN potentially win the survivors the game, but what it results in is a game where the whole game is decided by the 1vs1, and serves more to make the game bpring and frustrating more than anything else.
So I would not say that using DS offensively is unacceptable, you can do whatever you want with your perks and playstyle....but if you use DS offensively you are more often than not gonna hit killers who don't tend to tunnel, and are thus pushing for and breeding an unfun and lame game for everyone. If that killer then resorts to unfun and lame strategies in return, tunnelling you out and ruthlessly continuing that gameplan to kill everyone, it's kinda on you.
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You just said “things that are blatantly unfair are deserving of a nerf”. That means this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something is unfun for the other side, because “blatantly unfair” overrides that completely.
This argument has always been whether or not weaponizing DS is blatantly unfair, and deserving of a nerf.3 -
Yeah, I am in agreement on not being a fan of these types of strats and I myself don’t use them either. But I think until these type of strats become against the rules, it’s safe to say they will always have a place in the game. And I do agree that many people acknowledge tunneling isn’t fun, and perhaps even boring as you said, but in my opinion that doesn’t mean it still doesn’t happen. In fact, because DS was recently buffed, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that tunneling has been so popular that the Devs felt comfortable enough to bring DS back. So I guess on that front we disagree about 1 being accepted and the other is not. Simply because I believe if tunneling wasn’t accepted as a viable strategy, it wouldn’t be used, and if it wasn’t used there would be no need for a perk like DS to even exist. So I think the idea of DS breeding a more unfun environment isn’t necessarily true, as DS is a symptom but not a cause. That unfun environment is the the reason DS was made to exist. Anyways, thank you for your perspective. :)
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Second perk, one time use, still wasting time.
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The entire point of my post was about the hypocrisy in comparing it to the acceptance of tunneling. Throughout our conversation we’ve discussed a few different things, but I think the root of it is a disagreement on what is fair/unfair. So I’m assuming what I said earlier about your position was correct, that you believe the value given from DS is “OP” or “blatantly unfair” when I spoke of things that do deserve a nerf.
I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree then, because I don’t equate hooks that don’t respawn due to sabo, or the twins in PTB to be on the same level as this buff of DS. If that’s your position then unfortunately I’m not sure there’s more to say then agree to disagree. I do not consider the 2 seconds added to be blatantly unfair and deserving of a nerf. But thank you for the perspective, and I wish you luck in your future games.3 -
This is nothing new, this is how DS was abused before it was nerfed to 3 seconds. Too bad BHVR absolutely refuses to remove the abuse by giving survivors with Endurance/DS no collision.
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The solution is not to buff a perk that can negatively impact killers who aren't doing it. Especially a perk that is part of a DLC that you must spend money on. I think you would agree that a BETTER solution, is to make it a basekit mechanic that addressed tunneling and balance the entire game around it, rather than slapping a band-aid on it with a perk.
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Cheers you too, I suppose my point is neither is unacceptable.
I get annoyed at tunneling, I get annoyed at aggressive DS use. Neither is against the rules, so the argument of Aggressive DS being considered wrong/toxic is purely subjective to each individual. If it were actually wrong/toxic, there would be a rule or mechanism in place to prevent both. I don't see any objective evidence that either is.
One could say where AggDS is "wrong" is the fact the perk got extremely hard nerfed to make it so survivors literally couldn't use it aggressively, to the point it made the perk extremely difficult to use in general for the average player. The fact it retains most of its other nerfs indicates that things not the intended way to use the perk.
You can by extension say that tunneling is "wrong" by virtue of survivors getting basekit Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike being buffed...
However in both cases, the are isn't any actual rule against it, so without a direct quote, we can't really conclude anything more than there is an indication that BHVR wants to "discourage" both of these things.... and both can justvas easily be chalked up as "balance changes" as part of the expected gameplay loop and nothing more.
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It's just annoying, not a super big deal.
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More drivel from someone who obviously never really plays killer. All killers play the same, surv play requires mad skillz and even if you lose, it's only because the deck was stacked against you, right? GTFO with that nonsense. Most killers don't tunnel/camp/slug, and if you feel like they all do, it's probably a skill issue on your end.
As for the topic, honestly I don't care much so long as the survs can't advance objectives without deactivating DS. I have zero issue with DS in its current state.If I'm playing killer and the surv I just unhooked wants to waste their time trying to bait me (which is usually really obvious) just so they can get their DS off I'll gladly let them and as I chase someone else. If they're too persistent or bodyblock, I'll just put them on the ground and leave them there.
It's one of the cardinal rules of killer: don't chase people who obviously want to be chased.
And even if you successfully bait the killer into eating a DS, what have you gained? Unless it happens right away (like in cases where you're actually being tunneled), you're probably coming out on the wrong end of the time wasted equation. If you chase the killer around for 30+ seconds and get downed and DS them, you haven't done anything positive for yourself or your team. Or is wasting your own time just to justify filling a perk slot considered an "outplay" now?
Seems like when some survs waste half the match trailing chases around waiting for flashlight save opportunities they either don't get or botch. It only benefits the killer. To survs who chase the killer around after being unhooked trying to bait them into eating a DS, by all means keep doing it. Unless you're on my team, then knock that ######### off.
It shouldn't need to be said, but if the killer immediately chases you and no one else after you've been unhooked and you end up DSing them, the perk has done it's job, and in that case it helps your team.
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I agree with your take on DS one hundred percent. I acknowledge it's annoying but I don't think it's unfair or should be nerfed. If people chose to use it more offensive than defensive, there is value but also a risk, which is good. Anyways thanks for giving your two cents! Good luck in the fog !
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Okay, 3 pages of comments and in my eyes your premise is still flawed.
It's hard for me to justify or sympathize almost because the reasons why using DS offensively is "bad" and why tunneling is "bad" are the same argument, but one is accepted and the other is not.
This a gross and wrong generalization.
The people that complain about ds used offensively are NOT the same that accept tunneling.
On the contrary, ds can only be used offensively against people that have agreed to the notion of tunneling as bad, therefore go out of their way to not do it, then get forced by the survivor and to top it of get still called tunneler and complained about.
The people that don't care about the tunneling complains and have "accepted it as a valid strategy" will do it regardless and therefore ds can only be used DEFENSIVELY against them.
Those two groups might not be clear cut and a part of the complains might be from notorious tunnelers but in general they aren't the same.
And aggressively used DS isn't toxic, the unfair treatment afterwards is.
Survivor can either have their cake of functional anti tunneling tools/perks or can justifiably complain about unfun strategies used against them, not both.
Same with a killer that is intend on tunneling and then complains about backlash.
Either tunnel and accept complaints/countermeasure being implemented or play hard mode/friendly and survivor have nothing to complain about.
Sadly the latter doesn't keep survivor from complaining anyway, when the match didn't go their way, which is also a frequent double standard on that side.
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DS is just one of many symptoms, BGP + blinds, pallet stuns, sabotages all discourage picking up of Survivors be it the first or subsequent hook. Hooking takes up too much time and frankly kills off Killer pressure too easily. I see Killers learning that not every down mandates a hook as a good thing. Slugging for pressure is still a tactic largely slept on.
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People like to joke about the survivor rulebook, but are we maybe seeing the emergence of a killer rulebook? Thee shalt only useth thy perks for the benefit of thy self?
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To.. what? Let me guess, "Killers try to justify tunneling"? I think this argument is in bad faith.
If a Survivor is unhooked, has Off The Record and/or Decisive Strike, and takes hits for the unhooker when Im clearly not trying to go for them, am I suddenly tunneling for hitting them when they are actively getting in my way?
Whenever I play Killer, I go out of my way to not tunnel or camp Survivors, BHVR wants to discourage tunneling with Decisive Strike, so why am I actively being punished for not tunneling by a perk meant to counter tunneling? I personally dont have an issue with players themselves doing it, since they are just using a perk, but I do have to question the game design here, since I dont think anti-tunnel perks should be used in situations in which tunneling is not taking place.
A common argument I see is that "the Survivor does not make distance since they dont get a speedboost" (not saying that you said this, but this is a common thing said in the community) but distance is distance, it make the difference between making it to a loop or not, getting a down or not, it also resets things like Bloodlust, a single hit tank can make the world of different in terms of the result of a match, which is why bodyblocking is a very important thing in the Comp scene.
To put it bluntly, this should not be a thing, and I think Survivors should lose collision with the Killer after being unhooked until they perform a Conspicuous Action; think about it like this, the Killer cannot bodyblock the Survivors to wait out BT or prevent them from reaching a loop, and the Survivors cannot use anti-tunnel perks to take hits for teammates when the Killer is not tunneling. Tunneling is made harder, those who dont tunnel are not punished for not tunneling, overall win/win.
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Double standards.
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Survivor book says there is no way you're going to tell me how to use my perks after enduring this disgusting meta on top of disgusting meta. After Tunnel + Regression, a whole new chapter had to be written.
Did you really quote that lil bit of me to justify talking about you think? Alright I guess. Have some attention.
To.. what? Let me guess, "Killers try to ju
Just gonna cut you off there and let you know I'm really not interested in guessing. Keep that in the loops. You literally took this thought of yours and wrote paragraphs as if it was absolutely true, then told us all what you think, as if anything you wrote hasn't been written time and time again. Probably a chapter in the Killer's New Testament.. Good lord…
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"wahhhh, I'm facing the exact opposite of what these killers are experiencing on the other role and that makes my experience more valid".
You realize people who don't tunnel unless ds is forced upon them likely play both roles and they are just left with 0 options unless heavily winning? It's not another counter point, it's THE counter point. You can't in good faith argue it because it leaves the killers with few options.
"You all know yall always tunnel/camp/slug for anything and everything, ds or not , distortion or not because any one thing a survivor do like stunning you with pallet/flashlight/flashbang save a teamate/blast mine/or head on you or overall just outplayed you in a way you do not like, your ego is so harmed that tunnel/slug/camp mode is activated"
Bro listed off frustrating things for casual players on both sides and thought he had a point.
Like I get it, killers and survivors play in the same monotonous playstyles that are seen every game but at least try to be a bit fair.
FYI I mostly play survivor these days I've just done both so I can actually be unbiased.
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You getting unhooked, you rub your ass in my face even if i dont go for you, you body block me then go in a locker ? Hell yeah im gonna tunnel you down and eat the ds
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So, there's alot to talk about here. I'm not sure if you're looking for a genuine discussion, as you seem to be making things a bit personal, and I'm not trying to argue or insult others if they don't play the role I play because frankly I feel it's rude and pointless to do so.
But when it comes to a few points in your comment, I will try to explain my perspective . For example, your comment on, "The people that complain about ds used offensively are NOT the same that accept tunneling" So I believe you're saying that the people that get affected by DS offensively were not tunneling, which yes, I understand that. I also understand that it wouldn't be "offensive" if it were "defensive". If thats the point you believe I was trying to make in my post, I'm sorry it's come across that way as It is not my intention. I am aware that not everyone likes tunneling, and that not every killer tunnels, but it still happens so much to the point where the Devs felt comfortable enough to bring DS into the game years ago and to recently buff DS to bring it back.
So in my opinion, disregarding something that happens simply because not everyone does it, is wrong. If it happens often enough that an entire perk was created to deterr it, and then to buff it, then it happens enough to matter. I'm glad some don't play that way, I don't play that way either, but some do, and to ignore that is disingenious. This is why I don't believe it's a "gross and wrong generalization". The point of my post is that many people who are upset about DS being using in this way feel it is punishing someone that doesn't deserve it- which I understand, and agree that it isn't fun, but tunneling in itself feels like a punishment to someone that didn't deserve it either, but it is accepted as a valid playstyle, and that's why it feel hypocritical. I understand if you personally don't accept it as a valid playstyle, but enough do.
Your opinion stating, "Survivor can either have their cake of functional anti tunneling tools/perks or can justifiably complain about unfun strategies used against them, not both" I'm confused on your position. Are you saying that if they have access to anti-tunneling tools they can't complain about tunneling? Or are you saying that if they have unfun strats they can't complain about unfun strats? I'm unsure which you might've meant in your post, but I don't think that people aren't allowed to be annoyed about something regardless if they have a coutner to it or not. This goes for both sides as well, as there are unfun strats, perks, items, add-ons and various other things that can be annoying or frustrating for both sides to deal with, even if a counter exists. I believe most everything in the game has some kind of counter, but that doesn't mean you will always have access to it the moment you need it, so I don't understand why you feel like it's not allowed to be..upset about something you don't like? If your point in this is saying, "survivors can't be upset about tunneling because they have this DS they can use offensively now," then I would agree that if a person goes out of their way to use it offensively and then gets hooked because of it, then yes, I would agree they shouldn't say they were tunneled, because they weren't. But to say that survivors are not allowed to complain about tunneling at all because this DS exists, I don't agree with, as the only reason DS was created was in an attempt to counter tunneling in the first place.
Anyways, hope you have good games, if my post came across as disrespectful or invalidating know that is was not my intention, and that I'm simply offering up an opinon and the reasons why I have that opinion and that it's okay if we don't agree. GLIYN
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The point of my post is that many people who are upset about DS being using in this way feel it is punishing someone that doesn't deserve it- which I understand, and agree that it isn't fun, but tunneling in itself feels like a punishment to someone that didn't deserve it either, but it is accepted as a valid playstyle, and that's why it feel hypocritical. I understand if you personally don't accept it as a valid playstyle, but enough do.
Here is the same generalization again, tunneling accepted by who? Offensive DS being complained by who?
The people that complain about DS used offensively DONT TUNNEL themselves, don't condone it and aren't the ones accepted tunneling as valid. Therefore there is no hypocrisy or double standards.
Are you saying that if they have access to anti-tunneling tools they can't complain about tunneling? Or are you saying that if they have unfun strats they can't complain about unfun strats?
Neither. I am saying that if survivor get a counter against a certain play style they don't like but then force that same play style because they are now protected against it, have no right to complain if they themselves FORCE it, which is the whole point of "using DS offensively".
so I don't understand why you feel like it's not allowed to be..upset about something you don't like?
When the opponent doesn't use that unfun thing or strategy but the other party suddenly forces it because they know they have a guaranteed counter, then they shouldn't complain. Being upset about tunneling in general is totally fine.
If your point in this is saying, "survivors can't be upset about tunneling because they have this DS they can use offensively now," then I would agree that if a person goes out of their way to use it offensively and then gets hooked because of it, then yes, I would agree they shouldn't say they were tunneled, because they weren't
And here you suddenly get my point, at least partially. Using DS offensively is ONLY possible in this scenario by definition.
If the killer tunnels from the beginning, DS CANT be used offensively because it has to be used defensively. And if the killer doesn't tunnel, it can't be used defensively, only offensively by throwing yourself in front of the killer and bodyblocking.
Those two cases are mutually exclusive and depend on the play style of the killer, which leads me back to the problem with generalization and the mentioned hypocrisy.
An analogy would be, if you (general, not personal you) drive on the highway with a cop car behind you. They simply let you go on your way but you decide to break check them. They then pull you over into a traffic stop and afterwards you cry about unfair treatment and profiling or something. You provoked the situation and therefore have only yourself to blame.
That's what I meant by "using DS offensively isn't toxic but the behaviour that often follows afterwards is" as an answer to your question in the title.
(Sorry, if I address several points multiple times but a m tired and too lazy to rewrite everything into one congruent text. 😴)
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I am sorry I do not get your point but ok.
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I just slug if my intention is not to tunnel.
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They're forcing themselves to be a bodyblock bot, they can't complete generators doing that.
It's weird seeing the DS-UB loadout be complained about as fiercely as I complained about it back in 2019/2020. When I did it, they could do generators in your face and it was actually a huge problem. I don't care that DS is 5 seconds, they can't do gens if they want to be dicks with it.2 -
I don’t, but if you want my attention you got it. When I kill the survivor using Ds offensively they complain I tunneled them…🤷🏼♂️
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”Tunneling accepted by who?” The people that tunnel regardless if it is “deserved “ or not.
“Offensive DS being complained about who?” The people that are being hit with a DS when they weren’t tunneling regardless if it is “deserved” or not.
Both being “punished” regardless if they “deserved” it or not.
Killers used to be the only role that could “punish” someone regardless if it was “deserved” or not. Now survivors can also “punish” someone regardless if it was “deserved” or not.
If someone used DS offensively it is not tunneling. If you agree that it isn’t toxic to use it this way then we’re on the same page.I’m not sure how to break it down any more than that.
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It's a valid strategy like camping or tunneling. People just don't like it, that's all.
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Rightfully so!!! Trying to get cute with your anti tunnel defense and get kill off because of it.
the tables have flip a little bit tho hu? This is why we need to be careful about setting precedents. Saying tunneling at 5 gens a perfectly valid strategie when it obviously super overpowering in the hands of anybody competent. Now look at the mess we in. This very old abusable DS strat that punish non tunneler is back and it all because of one reason.___________ People refuse to relinquish power in this game even when it's quite obviously broken. The Devs would be much faster if the community was collectively together on issues.
"background player and buckle up is fAiR!!! you just need to be aware of your surroundings bro"
"I nEED TO TUNNEL AT 5 GENS because they might be a SWFffff"
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DS is a one time use perk, that deactivates if you even look at an objective or another survivor. I agree that if a person is jumping lockers repeatedly or vaults that is obnoxious, but would be with or without the DS. The only people affected by this perk were all up at the offhook (which you shouldn't be) and looking for some low hanging fruit instead of actually playing the game. So if you are constantly seeing DS, maybe re-evaluate your play style.
And to all the people in here who are like I got a 5 second stun for playing poorly, so I will literally ruin 4 people's game with slugging and tunnels, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. These perks are in here because of you.
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Okay, I see that my argument about "hypocrisy/double standard" being false doesn't get through to you since you took most of my last comment the wrong way.
I know who complains about what. The point was that those aren't the same people and therefore there is no hypocrisy like you claim.
But I tried to make that point clear multiple times and am done with this discussion. BB
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Pardon me if my post came off the wrong way originally. Looking back I understand that it might have came off passive aggressive considering the amount of back and forth this thread as a whole already has.
Im just going to ask for you to dial it back a bit here, and to maybe read my entire post instead of stopping part-way through.
If a Survivor is unhooked, has Off The Record and/or Decisive Strike,
and takes hits for the unhooker when Im clearly not trying to go for
them, am I suddenly tunneling for hitting them when they are actively
getting in my way?I asked this for a reason. And I wish you would please answer it.
Tunneling is defined by the Killer going out of their way to get a Survivor out of the match as early as possible by repeatedly chasing and hooking them. Killers, as evident by the current meta, are not obligated to ignore Survivors. Tunneling has become an issue because it's not only the easiest way to win (path of least resistance) but because it is the most effective way of winning.
But what exactly constitutes tunneling? To put it bluntly, this was my question.
If the Survivor is unhooked, the Killer can clearly go for the unhooker, and they go for the unhooked Survivor, that is tunneling. But when the opportunity to go for the unhooker is obstructed by the person who is unhooked, are exceptions created for such or is such lumped into the category with the rest?
For me, if Im chasing another Survivor, Im not going for the unhooked Survivor, I dont think I should be called a "tunneler" if the unhooked Survivor bodyblocks for the unhooker, especially if I dont even continue the chase with the unhooked Survivor and still go for the unhooker. Which is my point.
But everyone has their own interpretation, so I asked you this question to open up the room for conversation.
Some other things to wrap up.
"Probably a chapter in the Killer's New Testament," is implying that Im a Killer main…
I feel like Ive been called a Survivor main and Killer main many times for my opinions. At this point, Idk. Apparently I main both sides but also neither and everything and nothing at the same time. I play strictly one role, which is both roles, but also neither, but also only one, but only the one that opposes the broader opinion apparently. (/j)
To put this as bluntly as possible.
I paid 20 USD for Dead by Daylight, as did everyone else. But for me personally, I want to get the full experience for my money, so I play both sides rather evenly. I dont main Killer or Survivor. I paid for the full game, for both Survivor and Killer, so I want to play both. I form my own opinions based on my own experience with the game from playing both sides. I have empathy for both sides since I understand the ups and downs from both ends.
I dont tunnel as a result.
Since I feel as if it ruins the experience for others, since Ive had matches where Ive been thrown into a 3v1 because my teammates got tunneled out early into a match. But at the same time, I feel as if the game's design has a lot of issues, since the perks designed to prevent tunneling are also used in ways that hurt Killers for going out of their way to not tunnel. Ive had matches where I get tunneled out and Im forced to sit in timeout since Im in a SWF and cant just "go next", Im forced to sit there and watch.
Also, to put it bluntly again, Im on team "anti-tunnel" here. My original post mentioned this, but you seemed to have missed that.
Oh, and as mentioned in the original post… I think collision with the Killer should be removed to make it harder for Survivors to use anti-tunnel perks beyond their intent; it doubles for making tunneling not as effective since it becomes harder to bodyblock Survivors in certain locations (e.g. basement) to wait out BT.
Not tunneling should be encouraged, not punished.
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OK, so, I have an idea how to make DS less... annoying, idk. Please don't crucify me.
• DS now deactivates when taking a Protection Hit
• DS no longer deactivates in the Endgame/when doing conspicuous actions except repairing.
• DS now disables the killer's power up to 10 seconds.
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Im just going to ask for you to dial it back a bit here
With such curtesy, I would never decline. Apologies for -my- post. I wrote it after coming out of back to back trials where I was ignored after showing a smidge of looping ability. Someone else always gets tunneled and I cant do anything about it :( Still, was not a good excuse, so my bad. Will try to do better!
If a Survivor is unhooked, has Off The Record and/or Decisive Strike,
and takes hits for the unhooker when Im clearly not trying to go for
them, am I suddenly tunneling for hitting them when they are actively
getting in my way?I asked this for a reason. And I wish you would please answer it.
Tunneling is defined by the Killer going out of their way to get a Survivor out of the match as early as possible by repeatedly chasing and hooking them. Killers, as evident by the current meta, are not obligated to ignore Survivors. Tunneling has become an issue because it's not only the easiest way to win (path of least resistance) but because it is the most effective way of winning.
I don't think the community is on board with this as a whole. 'Tunneling' has been given so many definitions, who can keep up? But for the sake of this conversation, lets go with this one :)
Your issue with 'why' tunneling is an issue at all is at odds with me, as my personal reason is the amount and frequency of seeing tunneling. And not when it's clearly -the- move to make. Im talking when its the -only- move made by the killer. Game starts, survivor found, hard tunnel and before you can blink, the games over.
To answer the question, no of course not. Anyone arguing otherwise is deficient or not being genuine. There is a difference in having an opinion, or being factually wrong. Saying that scenario is tunneling , imo, would likely come from a survivor who is trying to cope with what just happened, but in a poor, immature manner. Just kind of makes the pain of it all feel….. better. Is this sufficient? Think I covered it all lol.
But what exactly constitutes tunneling? To put it bluntly, this was my question.
I feel you stated what tunneling is, as accepted generally by the community. In other words, the logical and factual definition when spoken about. "Tunneling is defined by the Killer going out of their way to get a Survivor out of the match as early as possible by repeatedly chasing and hooking them." -specifically. I'd note that this definition, again, is made volatile to me when I see this at the beginning of the match. Not if the killer needs to change tactics, not if the killer has an obvious need to tunnel in the match. Just as the mindset going in.
There are so many scenarios where someone can look at whats going on, and with just a hint of bias one way or another, determine if something is tunneling or not. But this will happen regardless most likely. If a killer decides they are losing and start tunneling around 2 gens left, is this bad? Of course not. Will the killer still get flack at the end game chat? Oh yes, probably. But this is simply not deserved or warrented, just survivors 'coping and deflecting' to protect ego. There will be people who will call tunneling for any reason under the sun. I call those people bad apples and they will make any discussion or issue more difficult and annoying.
Some other things to wrap up.
"Probably a chapter in the Killer's New Testament," is implying that Im a Killer main…
I feel like Ive been called a Survivor main and Killer main many times for my opinions. At this point, Idk. Apparently I main both sides but also neither and everything and nothing at the same time. I play strictly one role, which is both roles, but also neither, but also only one, but only the one that opposes the broader opinion apparently. (/j)
lol! I feel this so much :P
Many play both sides, but unless its 50/50, one side will have a slight edge, just as a fact. Doesnt mean you main that side. I dont even feel someone enedfs to claim to be a 'main' at all. But you can. And its kind of easy to tell them on here sometimes.
My killer book comment remains in tact, however. I can state now its not directed at you personally, but just in general. But its meant to show my frustrtation over every killer main arguing, in bad faith, that tunneling is fine, accept it, gg move on, etc.
Nah. Ill just play something else. And they are fine with that too! Im just floored players are fine with other players leaving the game when I do genuinely thnk most of us like the game and want it t be great. But I try to remember this is the internet and humans Im dealing with. Makes it make more sense.
To put this as bluntly as possible.
I paid 20 USD for Dead by Daylight, as did everyone else. But for me personally, I want to get the full experience for my money, so I play both sides rather evenly.
Not gonna paste the whole thing, but still respond. And your view on this in this excerpt is what Im talking about with what I was saying just above this. You are showing you clearly love the game and want it to be better. If you didn't you wouldn't even be here trying to understand things, right? I dont get the vibe you want to play and make the game miserable for others on account of "Just trying to win', 'Its just a strat', 'Its the most efficient way." Or any of the other broken record excuses for being an internet human. So its easy for me to discern one from another. :)
I feel as if the game's design has a lot of issues, since the perks designed to prevent tunneling are also used in ways that hurt Killers for going out of their way to not tunnel.
If a perk does something, it does something. If you can get creative and do something else also, go for it. BHVR makes the game and has testers, right? PTB, etc. On this topic, I'm pretty cut and dry: If people can complain about things such as tunneling being rampant, BG+FB, BU+FTP, Proxy camping, etc, AND NOTHING CHANGES, then it doesn't matter. Everything is fair game. The community has too many of these bad apples I mentioned to meaningfully play without doing these things. But its just my current view of the Dbd landscape.
Also, to put it bluntly again, Im on team "anti-tunnel" here. My original post mentioned this, but you seemed to have missed that.
Oh, and as mentioned in the original post… I think collision with the Killer should be removed to make it harder for Survivors to use anti-tunnel perks beyond their intent; it doubles for making tunneling not as effective since it becomes harder to body block Survivors in certain locations (e.g. basement) to wait out BT.
"""Not tunneling should be encouraged, not punished."""
So to this, specifically the last line, I ask why? If we have to encourage/reward for NOT tunneling… what's that say about the game? Or the state of it anyway. If we feel that should be done, the issue is still clearly an issue that BHVR will eventually get to, Im sure. But its something thats been talked about to death, so Im gonna call it there for me.
Hope this helped and again, apologies for the harshness. Was quite a bad day and I need to stop coming here after… well. After playing. Because its usually just bad bad bad thoughts lol
Edit: Grammar
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