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New DS being used "offensively" why is it considered toxic/wrong?
Comments
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I'm just pointing out this isn't fun for either side. I enjoy chasing different survivors, and when I'm in matches like this it becomes extremely stale being required to slug out someone doing it or tunneling them out if I'm playing high mobility.
And on survivor side, my teammates go down like flies trying to do this stuff too, or anyone not running DS get tunneled out to compensate.
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I appreciate this take. I agree that it's unfun to play against, as many things in the game can be, but I don't think that means it's broken or shouldn't be accepted as a valid strat.
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Compare to abusing reworked Boil over and creating impossible to hook scenerios, forcing DS is mostly fine.
DS into Headon into flashbang is next level annoying thing to do. Issue is you don't really use that to be effective, that's actually done to annoy killer as much as possible.
Just forcing DS is getting value out of good perk, that's fine. I just see it differently when you create your whole build to annoy other side as much as possible.
That's like playing full bleed out builds on killers. It's not better / best way to play, you just want to be annoying.2 -
With everyones explanations on this forum, every scenario people bring up always has the other side having the exact perk they need to screw up the formula being presented. See @Reinami in this very thread:
"Now, you have 2 choices:
- You pick up the guy you just downed,
- You ignore them and leave them on the ground.
If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds."
You can see from this small snippet of text, they know everything about the games that they will play. We could say they are wrong, but, lets be honest: We can't prove it, but neither can they. So things will continue to go round and round pointlessly.
I don't think bully squads are 'every other game.' But, doesn't matter, sounds cool on a forum to say.
Bottom line is if someone replies to you with an entire scenario laid out with specific perks and outcomes that are absolutely the worst, its probably not true. At all.
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The other thing I'd add to this - these discussions never mention what people would be doing if they didn't have DS/Unbreakable. It's not like those perk slots just disappear. They could be running perks to speed up gens, BU+FTP to protect the survivor being chased, BP + Flashbang to rescue a down, etc.
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If we talked about that, the idea that bully squads come every other game and DS is bad because its being used to body block would fizzle into thin air. Can't have that.
Lol, thats the issue. Body blocking. From things that actually matter like Distortion, BU+FTP, etc… but now? Body blocking. It's not even a perk thing, it's just… lol. Im.. just gonna bow out now. Good luck, all.
Edit: I lied, still here. :(
Post edited by Spare_Them_Mori_Me on5 -
I think you've gotten some things mixed up. Eruption was never considered used "wrong" based on 3 genning. If you read the patch notes, it was the Incapacitated effect that BHVR felt was oppressive. They said they were retiring that from perks now because no one should play a game that forces them to stand around for long periods of time unable to do a single thing. How it was used by killers wasn't mentioned at all. 3 genning was the only thing BHVR said was the game being played as not intended.
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Not usually in agreement with alot of things with you, but this is pretty spot on. Sums up my feelings on the matter.
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@hermitkermit ignore the cry babies. I bet if you made a topic that slugging camping and tunneling is toxic how fast these killer mains defend how part of it is the game. now break them tunnelers with ds as much as you want op
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"advanced strategem"
Bro, it's dbd
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You're right, I should know to use the appropriate language for my audience
Take the hit for your teammate on death hook. It's not as black and white as it's made out to be mate
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Again, you are not me. I am TIRED of people telling me WHAT MY GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE IS.
I was responding to OP on why it is a problem by providing a concrete example that i'm seeing in probably 25-50% of my matches at this point. And if you don't believe me, that is your problem. But don't start telling me "its rare so its fine." Just because you aren't experiencing it, doesn't mean others aren't experiencing it.
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You know what, I'm gonna say it.
DS isn't an "anti-tunnel" perk. It's an aggressive killer delaying perk that happens to also have anti-tunnel qualities. And that's a good thing.
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Ok then, it is too strong, and the stun should be shorter. Probably around 3 seconds….
It was literally nerfed BECAUSE of these problems, then they buffed it right back to where it was. And big surprise, it is overpowered again. What needs to be done is that anti-tunnel needs to be made some kind of basekit mechanic that the game is balanced around, and then DS reworked into an entirely different perk.
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I'd accept this if it's activation conditions wasn't to be unhooked.
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I kinda have to disagree with your original question. You're saying using DS agressively is considered toxic, compared to strategies like tunneling and slugging. But I feel like the community is usually very against these strats, both of the examples you mentioned are, from what I've seen, pretty frowned upon. Tunneling is usually seen as a cheap or toxic way to win, the anti-facecamp and anti-3-gen mechanics were introduced to address the frustration playerbase felt when dealing with these strats. And currently people are again asking for a basekit anti tunneling or slugging mechanic to be added. So I definitely don't think they're encouraged.
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The general idea is that Decisive Strike is meant to be used to punish people for tunneling. If you throw yourself in front of the Killer to use Decisive Strike when you were not being tunneled, it is bound to make people upset since they are actively trying to avoid you. It's not necessarily toxic, in my opinion, but it is definitely sweaty, which kind of kills my mood to play sometimes.
I personally tho do not think it is toxic, since it's a perk in a game, it has not effect on the outside world, the sun wont explode because a Survivor used DS on me after bodyblocking a teammate.
I do think that the Survivor should lose collision with the Killer just to prevent situations like this. I think it's an symptom of the game's current design since collision with the Killer is a double-edged sword that should be looked at. Killers wont be able to bodyblock Survivors to wait out BT, Survivors cannot use Endurance or DS to bodyblock for teammates. Overall benefits both sides.
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I can clarify a bit by what I mean. So with alot of players that have been playing a pretty substantial amount of time, things like slugging and tunneling are generally accepted as being unfun, but fair. You'll find just as many posts about people complaining about it as people defending it. I myself have experienced this because in the beginning I didn't understand how it was fair and questioned it and people explained that while it's acknowledged that it's not fun to go against, it's valid, and often times the quickest way to win for many killers.
Many survivor mains view tunneling as a cheap or toxic way to win, while many killer mains view it as a strategy or tool. Anti camping and the 3gen mechanics did get changed to provide less value as before, but they are still viable, and in some cases, still very successfull. Oftentimes if someone is upset about the fact they were tunneled or slugged and they post about it, people will tell you that it's nothing personal and to just gg go next. Many posts about how you're not responsible for anyone else's fun, and mindsets like that.
For the record, I'm not trying to encourage these kind of strats on either side, my entire post is essetially calling out the double standard. Many of those strats we have mentioned before have been used for years and are defended as valid strats even if unfun to face, while DS is not.
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The strat you are referring to was something I saw, understood and knew the counter play of by max 30 hours on killer. It's just a simple as you said, have ds and not be on death hook = take hit for death hook teammate.
There's not a lot about this game that is extremely advanced in comparison to other games, there are some things but that's something I watched happen to otz on my first youtube video of dbd before I actually started playing.
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It was nerfed because it was overused, and it was overused because it was one of the precious few survivor perks that was fun to use while providing tangible benefits.
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It creates lose lose situations where you can't go after the unhooker and are punished for the "kind play". It's also a guarantee they're stacking DS with other nasty stuff like OTR/DH/UB. If you're playing a m1 killer it's very devastating with little you can do.
Example:
You can't find anyone and someone unhooks very close to you. The unhooked player tanks with OTR and extends the chase by 30s for the other player just with a protection hit. You can now decide to risk eating a 5s stun or continue chasing the unhooker. If you eat the stun the chase is reset and now you're at risk of eating a DH that also extends the chase another year. They can also just straight up take a down to buy even more time then unbreakable without needing anyone elses attention.
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Considering the counterplay of slugging, I don't think it is overpowered. 3 seconds is definitely UP, though.
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For perspective correction, it actually seems like it IS your problem. And will likely get the thread closed now. Calm down, it's not that deep. While it is true I don't believe you have those games that often, so what? I think someone who knows a game inside and out like the following:
"If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds."
I mean why even play at that point? Think on how this looks to anyone else but you for a moment? A moment for me in this scenario is 8.4 seconds or more. Also Idc how rare anything is. OP is OP. But OP doesn't absolutely equate to unhealthy for the game. DS is a hybrid perk, always has been. There's no reason we're going to let you down a team mate when we could save them.
As it were, can't help but feel this is just a reaction from survivors being trained that tunneling will happen, killers know its a terrible experience and continue regardless, and thus you have to deal with this DS battle. I relish in the fact I've never used DS once in my DBD time.
I'll let you get the last reply on this. Just don't get the thread shut down. I'm not telling you that you are wrong, just that I find it highly highly highly unlikely to be even remotely accurate. And that's something that should only be taken with a grain of salt.
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Well the problem with the perk is that it doesn't just fill what its one niche as a defensive perk should be especially when it has a very strong effect because as the stun gets longer its offensive potential increases
Weak ds with a 3s stun mostly used defensively by smart and coordinated survivors. Go down in a good area buy some extra time but don't expect it to do all the work, thus if used offensively like going for saves or harassing the killer around downed teammates you might not buy enough time to make it anywhere. Thus the perk ends up being only defensive
With a 5s stun the perk is better defensively because positioning matters less which is fine cutting tunneling down a bit is fair enough, I don't like the fact a paid dlc perk is the way to go about it but the devs have to put food on the table too.
The problem then becomes the creep into buffing its offensive strength. I had a match earlier today where a freshly unhooked survivor trailed around me trying to pallet stun / flashlight save teammates and when I slugged the teammate and went after them ate a 5s stun for my efforts, with the new stun time it didn't matter they put themselves in a bad spot they easily crossed the map to shack (or would have at the very least if I went after them) this once mostly defensive perk has been buffed enough to be used more offensively since its nearly impossible to use it wrong now.
People would prefer it be a defensive buff but it also making it easier to harass a killer, especially with perks like background player, flashlight saves being easier than ever, ect its just overstepping its bounds and I don't like it
Maybe it could do with 1-2 nerfs to its offensive capability like for being within range 24 or 32m of other downed teammates the timer 2x or 3x as fast. On top of being disabled if you blind or stun a killer carrying another survivor (successful or not) Hanging around for a save doesn't really happen when you are being "tunneled" and saving a teammate or even failing to do so shouldn't keep you safe
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So at this point you are just calling me a liar.
I answered OPs question based on actual evidence of what i am experiencing in a significant portion of my games.
At this point, i would kindly ask that you stop calling me a liar, and assume i am correct if you want to continue the discussion with me so we can continue a good faith discussion. Otherwise, we can agree to disagree and move on.
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I’ve sortve explained my thoughts on using a worst case scenario as a justification for buffing or nerfing something in a previous reply, so I won’t go into a ton of detail here, but essentially I agree that if used correctly and with other perks, it can be a very good time waster, but I don’t agree that it is busted or broken or that the value it gives is so great that a game can’t still be winnable. I think people don’t look at DS as just DS and they tend to lump it with other perks that synergies well together to make something stronger. And while it may be annoying to deal with, it is not uncommon for either side even before the new DS buff came into play. Stacking 4 slow downs is a pretty common meta right now, and while it can be frustrating to deal with, is still possible to win with the right counter play.
As far as being “punished for the kind play” I struggle to understand this when tunneling often isn’t because someone did something wrong, it’s simply to be as efficient as possible and get out that 1 survivor to make it a 3v1 because it’s easier to win. Who from their perspective is like being “punished for playing the game”. That’s what I don’t get as people are upset that this offensive DS could potentially “punish” a killer that didn’t “deserve” or “ask” for it, but tunneling isn’t seen as “punishing” and it doesn’t matter if the survivor “deserved” it or not because it is accepted as a valid playstyle. This is where it feels like a big double standard.
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That is actually a very good point. There have been things in the past, that were initially unintended but were then supported by the devs. For example looping, tunneling and 3genning (though not the hardcore 3gen play style). However, we know that these are now intended ways to play the game.
For DS however, we have not received such confirmation. Quite the opposite as DS was nerfed a few years back (patch 4.6.0) to deactivate on conspicuous actions. To be exact:
- Decisive Strike - Now deactivates when performing certain actions that are not part of evading the Killer
"[...] not part of evading the Killer." does sound like DS is supposed to be an anti tunnel perk only. However, in case they do consider bodyblocking with DS as an intended function of the perk it would be nice to have confirmation.
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DS even by itself is huge to get off and sure not everyone that uses it will be running entire builds, but the majority of my matches it's never just naked DS. 3s DS was still a top 10 perk for anyone who had the brain power to not use it in a corner of the map. We are back to square one on DS where m1 killers get rolled by it with 0 ability to play around it and the S tiers can power through it. There should never be scenarios where you're forced to tank anti tunnel perks without a say in it.
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I see no problem with that. Several survivors have tried this tactic with me last night. I expected it as they weren't exactly subtle. I've answered in kind and every single of these teams were wiped out.
Most of these players expect the killer has no experience on how to deal with that or will get angry and lose focus. It makes me smile when I see them realize in real time I'm waiting for the right second to hit or to carry while still doing damage. And of course it's always nice to see the rage-quit on the hook afterward.
I had so much fun yesterday. 😁
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End of the day it's +2s. Not a big deal. The only reason survivors are running it more is because they know it's making some killers upset.
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Brings back memories. 2020 Interesting video about a knife. It is situations like these that push killer players to the dark side of the force. Just one of the situations of inappropriate use of a knife.
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It's the same mindset with optimization. Even if a Survivor didn't get tunneled, not at least trying to bait the Killer into grabbing them after getting unhooked means the perk was essentially wasted.
Slugging a survivor after unhook will probably be more common and I can see it being the next thing complained about in a few months
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Play as you like because they will always have something to complain about, killers would cry a river regardless so I couldn't care less.
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Jill's perk Resurgence and Steve's perk Second Wind activate on unhook and I'd argue they're pretty well not anti-tunnel since they won't get a chance to activate if there's any tunneling happening
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The reason why Killers hate body blocking with DS, is those of us who don't like to tunnel, don't like to camp, don't like to play mean and try to make a game of it, end up being the ones that have to compromise our playstyle.
DS being used to body block, is effectively punishing the killer for NOT tunneling. Instead of taking 10s to down the DS user, eat the 5s stun, the become free to tunnel them out after that, it now takes up to 80s to eat that stun and costs the killer far more for effectively the same gain. So basically by being aggressive with DS, what you're doing us effectively saying "killers should tunnel to minimise the impact of DS as much as possible".
I don't know about you, but being forced to tunnel and camp out someone just because they MIGHT weaponise DS doesn't sound like a fun time. That said I don't think DS is a problem at the moment... but this is the concern with it being strong... it kinda encourages killers to play in a less fun way for everyone.
This is the common problem though isn't it? A mechanic is added to limit an unfun and obnoxious playstyle on one side, which in turn is used to create an obnoxious and unfun playstyle for the other side.
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Your argument is basically “X is fine, because the other side of the game has unfun things too”. This argument doesn’t work, because it can be used to justify almost everything….
“For the people + buckle up is fine, because tunneling exists”
“Background Player + flashbang is fine, because tunneling exists”
“Bully SWFs are fine, because tunneling exists”
Can we just flip this, and apply it to killers too?……”Pain res + Pop is fine, because voice comms exist”
“Sweating for the 4k is fine, because voice comms exist”
“Skull merchant is fine, because voice comms exist”
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All these reply of this is not fair to killers who do not tunnel. I am sorry to say but I cannot remember a time a killer does NOT tunnel/slug/camp because its been such a norm for me that even if there is a chance they dont well I simply have ptsd that it will happen and never accept the fact that it will not happen. Worst is when a killer brings a mori and your a streamer like myself its a strong indication its a sweaty tunnely camp/slug/killer.
Funny thing is those saying it gives me a reason to tunnel/slug more as if that was not always a thing that exist, I swear there is always some useless counter point about these killers who say why they tunnel/camp/slug which is the same as those that complain about distortion or any survivor perk that negates some of their plans.
You all know yall always tunnel/camp/slug for anything and everything, ds or not , distortion or not because any one thing a survivor do like stunning you with pallet/flashlight/flashbang save a teamate/blast mine/or head on you or overall just outplayed you in a way you do not like, your ego is so harmed that tunnel/slug/camp mode is activated. Goodness am so glad identity v community is not like this. Hunters actually do not even complain about body blocking or anything survivors do lol. That game is balanced on both sides anyways so makes sense.
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It’s very much a possibility the devs will “nerf” DS again if they see how it can be used more offensively than defensively and they aren’t happy with it. I do think the game is in a much different place then it used to be before DS was heavily nerfed, and I could see the benefit of introducing a type of play style like this that encourages teammates to try and defend one another more. I think it’s important to look at the current state of the game no matter how old a perk or item or ability may be, because it may not be able to keep up in todays game or it could be too oppressive for todays game.
Personally I am not a fan of play styles that go out of their way to.. “grief” someone for lack of a better term. (Yes they’re all just playing the game so I know it’s not actual griefing I just can’t think of a way to describe it right now).I don’t necessarily want to endorse these kind of plays, but it’s the hypocrisy that really irks me. I said it in a previous post so hopefully you don’t mind a copy and paste, but I feel my point of the post is explained decently here: “That’s what I don’t get as people are upset that this offensive DS could potentially “punish” a killer that didn’t “deserve” or “ask” for it, but tunneling isn’t seen as “punishing” and it doesn’t matter if the survivor “deserved” it or not because it is accepted as a valid playstyle. This is where it feels like a big double standard.”
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I guess I just disagree. As in the game right now, any killer can tunnel someone out, and that individual is forced without a say in it, unless they preemptively equip an anti-tunnel perk to try to prevent something that the killer doesn’t even need a perk for. If someone should never be forced to endure something (like tank an anti-tunnel perk) then I don’t see how someone should be forced to be tunneled. But that’s my point is that people don’t like how a DS could be given to someone that “didn’t deserve it”, but tunneling has never matter if the person “deserved it or not” because it’s accepted as a valid tactic/play style. It feels very one-sided and hard to justify.
I do think many M1s should get buffed, but I don’t think this means that every perk should always be weaker than an M1, as the game should be buffing those killers rather than nerfing perks. And I believe they’re headed in that direction with many killers getting buffs or QOL changes.
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Are we going to pretend that tunneling is accepted as a valid tactic by the majority of the playerbase? I've received death threats and slurs for "tunneling" someone that was death hook for 2 mins before I found them again. A huge part of the playerbase does not like camping, slugging, or tunneling and will let you hear about it.
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I'm glad to see it hasn't bothered you. I think while having the potential to be annoying it isn't as "op" as many believe. It's nice to see someone that has experieneced it and knew it was manageable. Using DS offensively has its risks, as it should. Good luck in your future games!
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Wow, times have certainly changed alot since then, crazy to see. Many of the examples he gave are very common in the game now, even to the point about the hypothetical scenario in which when a gen pops every other gen on the map is disabled for x amount of time haha. And about Blight, how he was surprised to think people thought he was very strong competitvely, only for now days a Blight to have one of the highest running kill streaks in the game. Just shows how much the game can evolve in "little" time.
But yeah, I would say that because of the fact that the perk even exists, it never really pushed killer players to the "darkside". As the perk was only created to try and counter tunneling which while still a valid playstyle is as "darkside" a killer could be. I would explain it as an annoying "symptom" but not the "cause".
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Post edited by hermitkermit on0
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Post edited by hermitkermit on0
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I'm really confused here; I've been away from the game for a bit, but will be returning soon, but I don't think I've heard of many complaining about this.
Is this a case of a couple of people being upset they got outplayed and now, all of a sudden, apparently this is a big issue made out of just a couple of incidents? Of course, there's the equally frustrating "this is what killer's always do" commenters (bait posters and kids), but this just feels like a big thing being blown out of a couple pf whiners.
Regardless, it's a perk that can be used inventively if needed and also has a very, very obvious counter - slug 'em. This feels like a non-issue on a slow news day.
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I'm really confused here; I've been away from the game for a bit, but will be returning soon, but I don't think I've heard of many complaining about this.
Is this a case of a couple of people being upset they got outplayed and now, all of a sudden, apparently this is a big issue made out of just a couple of incidents? Of course, there's the equally frustrating "this is what killer's always do" commenters (bait posters and kids), but this just feels like a big thing being blown out of a couple pf whiners.
Regardless, it's a perk that can be used inventively if needed and also has a very, very obvious counter - slug 'em. This feels like a non-issue on a slow news day.
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Unbreakable
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Slug them a 2nd time after they use Unbreakable for not learning a lesson the first time. No more Unbreakable.
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True I should have to do all this for making the decision of chasing someone else instead of the person unhooked. Very weird how survs cry about tunneling and such then throw themselves at the killer every chance they get.
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I don't disagree with this. I believe that both sides have access to things that are very unfun for the other. This isn't new in my opinion either as unfun playstyles, perk combinations etc. have been around since the beginning of the game. If you want to say that nothing either side feels unfun should exist entirely, then that's a different discussion I think. But my point is calling out the hypocrisy, which in order for it to be hypocritcal then both things you're comparing need to be the same, hence the "x is fine because y exists". It wouldn't be hypocritical if that wasn't the case. You could see my point as "justification" but DS was conceptualized in order to counter tunneling, it's an annoying symptom but not the cause. It's not justifying anything, it's the result of the current state of the game now and the way it was when the perk first came out.
I believe either both sides should have strong perks/items/addons etc. or neither should. I don't think this is an unfair take at all, I would argue that acknowledging unfun strats/perks/addons/items etc. on one side and then denying the other side those same things would be unfair.
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