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Otz calls out Survivor Entitlement and Devs not Killswitching
Comments
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I said we would have less dc, not that it would stop entirely. I think that's impossible to get.
Every person is different and their context is different. That person that dc'ed because of an early down probably had a lot of matches before that went terribly aswell and yours was just the one that finally made them ragequit. There are 4 survivors in a match vs only 1 killer. Statisticaly it's obvious you will get a lot more survivor ragequitting.
Honestly, I'm not sure what they can do anymore to fix this. They can ban whatever they want, people will find a way to go around it
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I like how you just casually throw in a nerf to self unhooks like it’s something that deserves a nerf.
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I see plenty of Killers DCing when things don't go their way, but the game is currently balanced around Killers to win the majority of the time. I played a set of matches with 2 friends (3-man SWF), and in 8 matches, we only escaped in 1. That is a 12.5% escape rate, and a 87.5% kill rate. I can get roughly the same numbers regularly as Killer, so the game is currently balanced around 60%K/40%E, but the reality (of mine, and likely many other people's) is closer to 85%K/15%E.
Not only that, but a Killer quitting has a significantly different impact on the match. A Killer quitting hard ends the match, or opening the gates sets a 2 minute timer to leave. A Survivor quitting makes 3 other players forced to play out a (likely) doomed match, and with a Killer (often) still sweating their butt off since it would be embarrassing to lose to a 3v1.
The weaker Killer players are busy playing against sub-100hr babies, and everyone else is (seemingly) getting sweatlords. The weaker Killers are perfectly fine, as I have no problem winning consistently as Ghosty/Myers/Clown/Trapper/Legion and I don't even use both PR and Pop at the same time on those Killers (one or the other). There is only 1 Survivor perk that can actually counter sweatlords, and it is a minor inconvenience (DS).
As far as entitled behavior, that is shared by the entire playerbase, and not limited to Survivor only. I was winning easily (as Killer) back during Rank-based matchmaking, so we needed to change to MMR to appease the entitled whiners. I was winning easily (as Killer) back with 80s gens, but we still needed to give whiners 10 extra seconds per gen. I was winning easily (as Killer) during the CoB/OC/Eruption 'monkey with a spacebar can win' era and I didn't even use those perks, but the whiners were given those free win perks. I was winning easily (as Killer) before nearly all maps got massacred and made significantly more Killer-sided (farm teepee pallet anyone?) to appease the whiners. Most major changes are making Killer more free to win, and nothing to help the Survivor QoL experience. Nothing to make teammates not throw for tomes. Nothing to ban sweatlord Killer picks. Nothing to mitigate sweatlord behaviors like bleeding out for the 4k. Nothing to avoid a scumbag Killer that was reported for breaking the rules, then you still get them in the very next match. I can completely understand any Survivor player who goes, 'fudge it, if I don't get a fun match I'm going next', because there has been nothing to make matches fun for Survivor other than another roll of the dice. Killer players are just as entitled as Survivor players, but they are catered to with free wins and QoL. If kill rates were 50-50, then Killers would be doing the exact same as Survivors currently are under the current realistic 80-20 (IME playing as both sides).
The game is currently designed such that if you think you are going to lose as Survivor, you are better off attempting Kobe's (for a lucky turn-around to potentially shift the balance back in your favor), or giving up on 2nd stage (since you can simply roll another match and hope for the better). That is the fault of the designers of the game, in that unhealthy behaviors are the most rewarded. It is on the design team to make healthy actions/behaviors/activities the best choice. Water flows in the path of least resistance, and BHVR created a massive canyon that causes Survivors to have near no chance of climbing out of this pit of desperation, thus they flow down this current 'go next' mindset.4 -
Issue is that logic works backwars tho, if a killer has a lot of awfull matches, they get sent to badham, the game or GoJ they they will lekely A:take a break or B: start tunneling, camping etc because well, that way their experience is not hindered. See the issue? You are asking one side to bend the knee while not acknowledging both sides are full of BS, a lot of survivors DC because simply they are not being handled a free win and a lot of killers tunnel and camp just because they can, justifying one as "they wanna ruin my game" and thr other as " They were just having a bad day, let them be" is incredibly biased.
If we are to hold killers accountable for using unfun strategies we also have to hold people who dc and ruin the match simply because they got outplayed accountable too.
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They should just play something else instead of DbD, stop defending the bad behaviour
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As someone who also never slugs camps ect.
People still give up all the time in my games. How you play rarely matters nowadays, people give up after .2 seconds on first hook before you even had the chance to do any of those things. Just because they didn't like [insert anything and everything]. Like getting downed faster than they would like, or getting downed at all for that matter.
I play Dredge, Demo and Singu recently and at most run 1 slowdown if any BTW.
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Like you just said its only "your experience "
If they don't see a point why even play at all?
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The killer would need something early-game to also help then because the only reason things like gens speeds allowing 3 gen pop in 1 chase is "fine" is because the killer gets stronger at the match goes on. This would take that away or diminish it.
Regardless this community has shown the stick is far more effective than the carrot with them so just as with other issues, the stick is probably the way to go. It should probably be both but if it's only 1 or the other it's stick.
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Depends on how long the chase is.
Even now, it's completely possible and even somewhat common to see Killers come back from that. You could buff Corrupt to cover four gens at the start instead, that would be something.
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If large amounts are going next quick it might be from the lack of enjoyment on that side. Looking into the fundamentals of the game or sending a survey might show more light on the issue.
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This is where player experience shapes opinions too. My experience, Killers that have no momentum and are struggling to get even one hook by the time there is 1 gen left or the exit gates are powered will still plug away because they know that an endgame hook could get them a kill, or more, depending on how altruistic and cocky the Survivors get.
You're right about negative behaviour being 'allowed' by the Devs. I would personally remove the "auto-sacrifice" from not attempting 2 consecutive skill checks. If you wanna leave, then DC and get timed out. I would make it so missing or not attempting the struggle skill check simply just shaves the current amount of seconds off the timer (I think it's 10), so you have to miss all 6 if you want out that way.
I wouldn't say the game is designed for Survivors to feel like they should have a "I want out" attitude. That's the players being enabled with that attitude by one another. "Oh you're against Skull Merchant? Yeah I can see why you'd quit." "Slugged by Twins? Makes sense." "The Killer got your teammates down back to back in less than 10 seconds? Yeah you may as well write off the match." It's just little babies enabling little babies with validation. It's so annoying to see. Been doing it for so long that it's become a habit and they won't hear it any other way that what they're doing is crappy and childish.
It's not a healthy state for the community to be in, and the Devs need to start being that strict parent that forces this habit to stop.
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I really enjoy these attempts to force people to play.
Can't wait for them to install key trackers to make sure you're really trying your best!
YOU WILL BE FORCED TO SWEAT AT MAXIMUM OUTPUT OR ELSE YOU RISK A BAN! PLEASE DO NOT RESIST!
Instead of addressing the why, let's just address the symptoms, like always. Surely that'll work this time.
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Well no, because they can be less strict with the DC penalty too. The time outs haven't got to be from 0-100 like they are now.
The reason for negative behaviours in DBD is because the player base are encouraged to play in ways that the opponents deem as dull. Tunneling and camping strategically in order to efficiently kill the Survivors -- instead of being encouraged to go for chases and multiple hooks. Survivors encouraged to sit on gens all game and then escape -- instead of being encouraged to be altruistic to your teammates in addition to helping yourself and your team in escaping.
It isn't lost on me how awful the condition of DBD is, and that the Devs are responsible for it. But the conversation is about entitlement on the Survivors side of things. Hence why everything I've said has been centered around that.
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Otz's video isn't even really about that. It's about the atrocious state of the game, the OP cherry-picked part of the video to fit the narrative they wanted.
I think the majority of the problem lays with the Devs. They have created miserable Killers to both play (Twins) and play against (still Twins). This has been a repeated pattern for years. They've made horrible maps that need reworked instantly, as well as perks that are either DOA or OP. They have refused to address unpleasant tactics. Survivors feel like if they go down, that's it. There's very little ability for Survivors to recover from a bad start. Killers feel like they need to stack gen slowdown, which may be true in some scenarios.
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I see this idea touted occasionally, but it misses the point.
The biggest advantage of survivors has nothing to do with action speed, it's all about action economy. With 4 survivors, it means you can have 4 simultaneous actions going at once. So after the killer builds pressure, this means you have one survivor on hook, one in chase, one going for rescue, and one on gens. That's called map pressure.
The benefit of tunneling one survivor out is that it completely removes one of those 4 consecutive actions. Unfortunately for survivors, chase, hook, and rescue are mandatory actions, and if you can only choose 3 of the 4 (because someone died), you have no one on gens.
So having even a 35% increased speed does literally nothing to address the issue. You'd have to have an absolutely obscene speed boost to make up for the fact that no one is on gens once one person dies.
Removing a survivor will continue to be the best play in this scenario, so there's no reason to stop tunneling with this system. The game still becomes essentially a free win with 3 survivors and more than 1 gen remaining.
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3 recent games, I wonder why survivors don't have any hope to win the match
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My headcanon is that BHVRreleased the My Little Oni because of people feeling like that and wanted to experiment with that angle.
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DBD is a 1v1v1v1v1
Are we seriously surprised that Survivors are at each other's throats?
Does anyone here honestly expect their teammate to hold their hand and sing kumbaya when the prisoner's dilemma dictates that defection will always result in a better payoff than cooperation?
You want to see change?
Hold BHVR accountable.
Stop tolerating game designs like hatch, left behind, sole survivor, and low profile, which promote teammate-abandonment.
Stop tolerating comments like "why should I die just because my teammates are bad?"
4 Survivors. 1 Team.
Give survivors a reason to be a team player.
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You do not have to run a single perk to play trashy.
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And you need to let go on hook anytime something doesn't go your way
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At this point Otz kind of a relic? I dunno. He has loads of game knowledge but playing it.. he's average.
Anyway, at OP, are you his advertiser? Asking since Im looking for a new job.
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Oh we being petty rn? I can post hundreds abusing potential energy making matches 2 mins
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This. More than any of the other stuff.
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Cant delete
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How is this petty? Same build day in and day out, Every. Damn. Game.
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New age woke ass community is why it's like this
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Killer can dodge lobbies with 4 toolboxes, I cannot dodge yet another Wesker/Blight with such build.
Also let's not pretend that killers didn't abuse Merciless Storm bug that zeroed entire gen, and let's not pretend that such builds as I've sent are played because some kind of exploit were recently discovered, okay?
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BHVR has made a tremendous mistake is balancing around top performing survivors and very bad killers at the time. The game feels hopeless as survivor because it is extremely unfairly balanced.
I bet nobody can answer this question. Why is it fair that a Blight can down a survivor with lethal pursuer before survivors can even start their objective? Why was the objective requirements for survivors increased? It's almost as if the goal is for survivors to be discouraged from playing. It's not entitlement but the win conditions is not fair.
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Range killers habe some kind of basekit "nerf" via lullaby - you have advantage - can damage someone from far distance, but also disadvantage - survivors are alerted that you are nearby. Some killers are slower than others.
Why something like this can't be done on high mobility killers? If you have advantage of better map pressure, what is the disadvantage here?
Create several "classes" of killers and give them some advantages or disadvantages.
If killer is high mobility, they can have, for example, slower gen kick speed, slower vault, obscured aura reading after some distance or sth like that.
It's always "boo hoo what about M1 killers :((". Basekit buff them and nerf the strongest.
Also I don't know why killer side don't have some kind of "Exhaustion" effect regarding Gen Regression perks or Aura Reading Perks, so stacking one on top of each other wouldn't be possible - because why killers should have some kind of wallhacks or notrocious perks that could nullify all progress on gen?
I'm kinda tired, because it's the same situation with 6.1.0 (introduced on 19th July 2022) gen regression meta with Eruption. It was changed in 6.6.0 - on 7th March 2023, more than half a year of miserable matches and numerous complaints. Now there is meta with PR/POP, how long we have to wait till there will be normal games again with any hope of escape?
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I agree. Blight is so unbalanced and needs more counterplay to offset his insane ability to end chases. No other game would a character be that broken overpowered. There was no thought process for designing killer powers other than the player using it. This is why Blight is so ridiculously overpowered, as well as Skull Merchant being a resident sleeper. Nothing being done about it BTW and here we have a streamer wondering everyone hates playing survivor.
The complaints about M1 killers is about they not an instant win such as Blight, etc. killers have never wanted a fair game. BHVR doesn't either.
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Killers have never wanted a fair game. BHVR doesn't either.
Something feels…. accurate. But also Dbd really isn't a good choice for a full comp pvp scene. If people just played like its supposed to be, a party, 'fun' game to get spooked and jump scared, it'd be the best game ever really. But, it got big, popular, and in came the ones who could ruin it, and as it were, are ruining it.
But thats also perspective. Ruining it in my eyes, but not in others. I've moved on to other games. Good luck in the fog!
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Everyone is turning that US vs THEM dial up to 11.
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I suggest you play a bit more of Killer, judging by your comment, because early mistakes made by the Killer can also lead to them losing the game pretty hard, and Survivors can absolutely come back from games that are going south by smart body blocking, having good chases or doing flashlight/pallet saves. The main difference is that Survivors need to cooperate and play as a team to do those plays and comebacks, while Killer is only dependent of their own ability, for the most part.
The best way to fix that would obviously be to give Solos more tools to communicate, and therefore have a better chance to do those game-turning plays. Stuff like allowing Solos to see their teammates' perks and making some nice info perks basekit (such as Bond or the team-seeing aspect of Kindred) would be good ways of accomplishing this, me thinks.4 -
Well I mean I think it’d be a rather straightforward decision to nerf gen regression perks with a change like this
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It's really weird how people believes "they'll just run to killer", they don't
Be it feeling of shame or something like that, just a short term rage, and so on, removing easy capability to leave the game ABSOLUTELY will REDUCE the amount of throwing no matter what you guys think, that's exactly what DC penalty is doing
Removing hook suicide will be no different, it has to happen fast
And no, game balance hardly affect it, it's just a issue of players, not the game
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Game design still needs to be called out. Not band aid fixes but things that would obviously lead to unhappy experiences.
Sure we know that there are a lot of DCs, but do we know the exact reason? Just saying people don't feel like playing that match gives no value. It could range from failing an archive challenge to literally being unhappy about being found first.Archive challenges need to be reworked especially for Survivors. The game needs to decide if it wants to be more casual oriented or comp oriented.
Casual oriented could see more random buffs being implemented in the game to spice things up. Perks could be permanently randomized each game so people on both sides dont just run meta.
Comp oriented would have more strict balancing from the top mmr to bottom and matchmaking could be more strict.
Devs want to cater to everyone and everything and that has worked for the past few years and may continue to do so for the next few years, but the game will eventually collapse on itself for being too ambitious.
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Agreed on BHVR needing to fix the flaws that allow for and feed into this behavior.
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Many players claim they want fairness for everyone, but one of the cornerstones of fairness is the network. The game currently Favors The Killer regarding hits, which is a huge pain point for many Survivors. There's little point in pursuing a trial where The Killer has a permanent significant advantage over you. And sometimes it isn't that bad, and it's more tolerable. But other times, it is egregious and unacceptable, especially in 2024. Before adequately discussing fairness and balance, the game needs to move to Server-Side Hit Authority. Let the servers be the authority on hits so it's fair for everyone.
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I don't think they can fix the entitlement. However that key analyzer thing seems interesting.
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I'm not sure how much I agree with your general message, but there is essentially one important point in it IMHO.
BHVR should make it obvious that a survivor that escape is a "win" for all other survivors.
Doing an hook exchange should be rewarded.
Sacrificing oneself so someone else can escape the trial should be rewarded.
I think they've spoken about something like this a while ago. I don't know if it's a thing they still plan to do.
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i've seen plenty of killers dcing recently when the 2nd gen pop to the point i can't even get my pips up so this is verry untrue
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Since 6.1.0 the game has gone awfully bad balance wise. That patch was the one that brought people dcing and suiciding every match because killers would just decimate entire soloq teams with no effort whatsoever.
Now that the escape rate is 40% for survivors, the game feels like there's no hope for a comeback. You either feel the game is going to be winnable and keep at it or you notice someone getting hooked in the first 30 seconds thanks to Lethal Pursuer and understand that you're not winning that match.
The moment one person is on the hook, that's gonna be two people off gens for a good bit, and in the process, the most likely event is that another player is going to be in chase. You alone are not going to do 5 gens while everyone else resets.
I keep telling people this is the only game that considers a 40% win rate acceptable, and they keep bringing me the most obtuse excel sheets with the most weird data in the universe to justify that "40% escape rate is 60% win rate for survivors, actually". Every other game, asymetrical or not, considers anything lower than a 45%~ish win rate underpower and anything above 55%~ish overpowered. Anything below 45% win rate is considered trash tier.
There is a reason people are giving up in masses, and why some of us, like myself, moved to play more and more killer as time went by. This is not "Survivors are awful human beings and massive crybabies", this is just "the game is exhausting to play as survivor for little to no reward whatsoever".
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It's called Spyware.
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Don't be ridiculous. Simply keeping track of gaming input to see if someone is even trying is nowhere close to being a spyware.
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Crazy how you're supporting putting spyware on people's devices simply because your ego can't handle someone not playing how you want.
Talk about entitled, jeez.
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TBF from a killer perspective its not worth DC'ing, the game will end quickly anyway so they can "GG go next".
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We could argue at length about design ideologies, and methodologies to achieve this… but the philosophy remains the same:
BHVR should make it obvious that a survivor that escape is a "win" for all other survivors.
You might believe the game just needs to reward players for these actions, I might believe the game needs to be completely redesigned to ingrain teamwork in survivor gameplay from start to finish.
It's neither here nor there.
The point is that BHVR needs to do something to cultivate teamwork between solo survivors.
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I wholeheartedly agree here.
The matches I play killer, I play it fair and enjoyable (like trying to go for 8 hooks), instead of sweating my ass off for the 4K, and the survivors generally enjoy going against me. Now, I do on occasions see survivors that DC, but it might have been due to a misplay on their end, and not due to my own actions. - Alternately, it could happen sometimes when I run Lightborn, just to mess with their overpowered flashlight/flashbang + BGP builds. They really don't like it when their flashlights don't work xDAlso, I consider getting 2-3 kills a win, and I don't mind losing the match, if I had fun while playing a silly build like Scratched Mirror, Walking Nurse or something like that.
I do think that the main issue with the game not being fun is caused by the playerbase itself, since many take the game WAY too seriously. The need to always win is too strong, especially among the killer players.
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The game requires sweating from either side which since this is not a competitive game makes it not worth playing anymore.
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Granted, when talking about SWF, the biggest issue is the 4-man groups. Eliminating 4-man SWF, or adding another mode that is balanced around them would pretty much be the only real solution to the SWF-balance nightmare. 2 or 3-man SWF's still have to deal with random teammates, that is probably why their win-rate isn't that much different from solo queue.
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