You Can't Weaponise DS
Comments
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It absolutely has to do with what we’re talking about. DS being active is preventing his pick up after the body block. Whether he eats the DS or downs and continues to chase they have gained the second to second value they needed. If they didn’t have DS in that scenario it wouldn’t put the killer in the lose/lose scenario that it does.
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Many survivors want to weaponize DS, when it's convenient for them, which is often when they have multiple health states to body block with. It saves time to just tunnel these survivors off the hook, so they don't have the time to set up their DS combo.
You will never ever convince me that it's better to ignore survivors that try to weaponize DS. Just wanted to mention that, so we're both on the same page.
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Are you forgetting that there are 4 Survivors in a match? Yes 2 Survivors not on Gens, but what about the other 2? They are not contested in any way, so those 2 gens will get done very quickly.
The only way for you to get them off gens is to quickly down the unhooker. The longer the chase goes on, the more progress they have on Gens.
All these are just a single instance. Now imagine every Survivor do this on every single hook.
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Only if they're downed by that hit, at which point the correct play is still to slug them because it slows down the game more than picking them up.
It only breaks in the survivor's favour if we're in one of those super specific scenarios you laid out AND they only block one hit with Endurance, running away afterwards. They get that second-to-second value but they aren't gifting the killer a window to turn it around at the same time.
DS might compel them to let the killer down them, which is to their detriment.
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Considering this whole thread is about the fact you can't weaponise DS, and you're admitting you don't want a conversation, there was no point in you commenting here to begin with.
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Absolutely, the other two are on gens.
The problem here is that you aren't considering what the alternative is. The alternative is THREE survivors on gens.
Occupying two survivors is better than occupying one survivor. Two survivors on generators is better than three on generators. There's always going to be some gen progress being made unless you're very lucky, so your job as killer is to minimise it as much as possible while progressing your own objective,
When survivors run around after you trying and failing to bait you into eating their DS, they're making your job easier for you. Once you succeed in downing the unhooker anyway, chances are good that they've only just picked up the one trying to bodyblock, at the cost of dragging someone else off gens or using up a valuable Unbreakable charge. That's pretty good for you in the long run.
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2 Survivors not on Gens is HUGE for the Killer. How long are you playing that you really think that 2 Survivors not doing Gens is not just the Survivors losing the game?
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Killer does not gain any progress from slugging Survivors. A killer that only slugs will lose the game oftenly, unless he’s an extremely great chaser, AND Survivors messed up really hard.
The ONLY time where Killer benefits from slugging is if he sees another survivor. If no one is nearby, and Killer still slugs, it’s a lose for Killer as he just gave up his progression (hooks) for no reason.5 -
You’re talking about it like it’s only good in very specific scenarios but the survivors “choose” when they want those scenarios to happen. So if they are doing it, it is that specific scenario. That slug also slows down the “overall” game, aka overall value and we’ve already talked about it isn’t always about overall value.
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I commented because it is possible to weaponize DS.
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I mean, it is only halfway good in very specific scenarios. Even when survivors are trying to engineer those scenarios, it still breaks out in the killer's favour most of the time as long as they don't take the bait, AND all of the value you actually get when it doesn't break in the killer's favour comes from Endurance, not DS.
Even when it comes to minute to minute value, it's a trade at worst. You're trading perk value or an important generator for the opportunity to snowball, at worst. More realistically, you're just getting the value of multiple occupied survivors and wasted survivor perks.
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Do you want to discuss that or not?
If you aren't interested in discussing it there's no point engaging.
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If only I had thought about that. I don't need to pick them up. Of course!
The fact of the matter is, that they take a hit for someone else, knowing that they are protected. Sure, I can slug them but the damage is done. That other survivor makes 2.7s x 3.425 m/s = 9.25 m of distance on me. Meaning, they will get to another loop. A safe one at that because I don't catch up before that.
This means that the second half of the chase is completely reset, which puts the killer way behind schedule. Sure, a Nurse will still power through like it's nothing but killers that aren't that strong, really suffer. So their best option is to eat the DS and then tunnel that guy. Meaning that DS turns from a perk that disincentivises tunneling, towards one that incentivises it.
I'm also pretty sure that this is against the intended function of DS. In 4.6.0 DS was nerfed to deactivate upon performing a conspicuous action and it was phrased as:
- Decisive Strike - Now deactivates when performing certain actions that are not part of evading the Killer
I'm pretty sure running into the killer's face and forcing them to hit you is also not part of "evading the Killer" either.
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Do you expect the DS user who bodyblocked you to just stay there doing nothing while you chase the unhooker? He'll start mending rightaway, and repairing gens just like usual. Sometimes he'll even finish those 90% gens before mending.
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Quick question.
What bearing does DS have on this scenario?
No, seriously, think about that. If the DS user bodyblocked to take an Endurance hit, mended, and then disabled their DS by going to repair gens… what exactly did DS change about this scenario?
Nothing. That's just normal Endurance bodyblocking.
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It is DS adding this value as well, not just Endurance. Even if Endurance did not exist we would still see this scenario happening from DS. Also the sheer fact that high mmr swf groups do this scenario regularly in itself proves your point wrong. If it was so bad they wouldn’t be doing it. They do it because it works. It wouldn’t be so wildly common that we’re even having this post on the forums if it was a bad move to make. There’s a reason it’s a hot topic.
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On top of your rundown being a little exaggerated + leaving out that you have a survivor slugged which is increasing the value you get out of the increased chase, this still isn't actually DS. This is just bodyblocking.
The best case scenario when a survivor is aggressively bodyblocking is usually to just slug them and move on because they're giving you a times-two modifier on your pressure. Sure, without DS you could choose to pick them up and hook them, but it's never the best decision.
This isn't weaponising DS. This is throwing to make the killer slug you.
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LOL Are you saying Killer can see what DS User does while chasing the unhooker? Killer is already occupied with the unhooker, so DS deactivate doesn't matter anymore. It has done its job, which is to keep Killers away from going after you when you do the bodyblock.
Of course, unless the DS User is baby survivor who does gens on your face.
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"High MMR SWF teams" and such also choose to be flashlight squads or to go for Head On plays. They don't do these things because they win games - they often lose games - but because trying to be aggressive and attempting to bait the killer into eating stuns/blinds is more engaging than playing it safe.
You can't weaponise DS. The most you can get is forcing the killer to slug you, which I would argue shouldn't count because it isn't to your benefit in most cases.
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You absolutelly can, just not in the way you are mentioning. Take this scenario, I have ds and plotwist, after I get unhooked I wont bodyblock but rather I will go around using EMPs, triggering hags traps, placing turrets, doing the box, disabling trappers setup, and guess what if the killer tries to stop me I plot twist and they can choose, either they pick me up eat DS and go on another chase or they let me be I plot twist and all that time slugged was worthless for them, both choices being a lose-lose for the killer, and if they ignore you they will say bye bye to their set up.
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Hmm…
You know, I'll give you that. Against very specific killers with a very specific build, you can sorta weaponise DS in a way that doesn't actively harm you. It's still less useful than just doing those things between generator repair, but sure, it's technically weaponising.
I would say this definitely isn't a problem, though.
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Flashlights squads and head on plays are meme’ing and fun things. You aren’t talking about fun things, you’re talking about just standing in front of someone blocking a doorway to let their team finish a gen in time. I think to assume ALL these squads are doing it just for funsies would be extremely disingenuous.
Forcing them to slug IS in their benefit since it forced a hit giving the other person more distance to get away. That IS literally weaponizing DS. It’s forcing a slug that helps them.
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Do I get anything out of having that guy on the ground? No. Because having someone on the ground for 30 seconds doesn't progress the game. That's why bodyblocking with DS is a thing. The killer's progress is delayed by the amount of time it takes them to down that survivor after the protection hit. During that time 1-2 survivors still progress like normal. So if it takes 20 seconds to down that survivor, then that's 20-40 extra charges on gens and potentially a wasted Pop / Pain Res (doesn't affect me but I feel like it's worth mentioning).
The difference between bodyblocking and bodyblocking with DS is that first you don't need to be healed and second even if you go down, you're still not in any danger because the killer cannot hook you for as long as DS is up. How is that just bodyblocking? You can tank 1 health state more than normal with pretty much no risk at all.
The funny thing about slugging is that it usually happens on the killer's terms. One condition for effective slugging (normal slugging that is because hardcore slugging is a completely different case) is that it needs to happen somewhere where the killer can actually get the other down shortly after. For example, you wouldn't do that on GoJ because the second down will take much too long.
If this is actually "throwing" the the game, then what's the harm in removing this? Wouldn't that be good for survivors because then their team mates will no longer "throw" the game by bodyblocking with DS? I suggest to buff DS to 7 seconds stun time, increase the active duration to 80 seconds, make base kit BT make that survivor completely lose collision with the killer and become invincible to any attacks during that time and then deactivating DS upon taking a protection hit.
10 seconds of invincibility is more than enough to get away from your team mate, so that a protection hit cannot happen. If necessary, add a map wide Bond effect, so that you can avoid running into any other survivors and risk DS deactivating. This would make the perk stronger against tunneling but remove the offensive use of DS. So it should be a win-win.
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I don't think all squads are doing it for fun, but I do think most of them are probably severely overestimating how good of a tactic it actually is. They're all probably banking on the killer actually picking them up, which would actually be to their benefit.
For that second part, I just disagree. Having one person on the ground and one person in chase is a worse setup for the survivors than one in chase and three on gens. It's a marginal amount of distance in most cases and it comes at the cost of one of the team members being immobilised, that's not to their benefit.
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Yep. The slugged survivor isn't able to progress the game or help their teammates, and getting them up either requires using up their single charge of Unbreakable or dragging a third survivor off generators. That is absolutely something you get out of leaving that person on the ground.
Is it as good as hooking them? No, but we're not comparing it to hooking them, we're comparing it to them not being aggressive with bodyblocking to begin with. It's absolutely better for you than that.
As to the last part, I have no issues with those changes. Those would be great! They'd be a fantastic way of making anti-tunnel more generally potent without opening up the possibility of it being weaponised. It'd be a great way of making survivor tools stronger for their intended purpose without unhealthy downsides.
What it wouldn't be is a fix to survivors currently weaponising it, because trying to do that throws the game in nine cases out of ten and is barely a problem in that tenth case anyway.
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What is the point in discussing it? You labeled this thread "you can't weaponize DS", which means you refuse to change your mind too.
Because if you were considering both sides, you should have named the thread something like "can DS be weaponized".
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I did consider both sides, which is how I came to the conclusion that you can't (usually, see below) weaponise DS.
I'm open to changing my mind. Someone a little above you actually pointed to a very niche scenario that you can weaponise DS in, sorta. You just actually have to argue in favour of that position against mine, because mine is more than a passing, interested question. I've thought about my position and have reasons for thinking what I do.
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So all these comp groups I face and groups with a combined hour totals of going up to even 35k+ hours are all just wrong and don’t realize it but you you are right about this instead of them? Really?
All these groups with high hours aren’t dumb, they do it because it’s not as bad of a play as you think it is. You are looking at only net surface level value and ignoring all the other nuances. That guy going down is worth it if the guy the killer is trying to get is on death hook and that hit gets him to main building where he can buy a ton more time.
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This could only be said by a person who completely does not understand how even one canceled hook can affect the game.
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No, but I think the comp groups and groups with combined hour totals of etc etc etc are probably biased in favour of more active and aggressive playstyles because that's how you keep the game engaging after that amount of time.
The absolute, single best thing any team can do is hardcore genrush with a full stacked genrush build. Very few teams do this because it's kind of boring. They pick the more active tools, and the things that have a flashier win condition even if that win condition isn't guaranteed. See: The possibility of stunting on a killer that actually ate your DS, even if most of the time all you get is slugged.
Or maybe they don't get slugged most of the time. My post isn't even aimed at survivors, it's aimed at the killers who seem to not realise the way you counter this tactic is to just ignore the survivor trying it.
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You don't get cancelled hooks from someone trying to weaponise DS, though?
You get a slug.
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I think to assume all of these high skilled groups only do it because of entertainment purposes would be very misleading.
Also the best thing they can do is not gen rush builds, it’s stacking second chance perks because they know the only way the killer can win is through tunneling or slugging, of which those perks are the counter.
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I didn't say they only do it because of entertainment purposes, I said they're biased in favour of tactics that are more engaging because they've already played the game a ton and need a little bit of spice to continue enjoying it.
How do you mean "the only way the killer can win is through tunnelling or slugging"? That's not even remotely true at any skill level of the game, you don't need to do either. You probably will do a little bit of one or both over the course of multiple games just because it's generally useful, but you don't need to do them. If killers did need to and did so reliably there'd be no reason to talk about weaponising DS because it'd be guaranteed to work every time without needing to be forced.
The best way for skilled, coordinated teams to win is absolutely real genrushing. There's very little the killer can do against spread out survivors each doing generators in half the time because of ridiculously stacked toolboxes and supporting perks, if the killer doesn't get lucky with spawns at the start of the match it's basically guaranteed to be a loss for them. This also basically never happens.
Now, I can't prove why it doesn't happen, but I don't think it's absurd to suggest that it's because it's very, very boring to do more than once in a long while.
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Are you sure you've ever played dbd at all?
I'm catching up with a injured survivor and I'm about to reach him, then survivor comes running in and forces me to give a hit to him. Survivor I was chasing initially runs to a safe place, chase increases for AT LEAST another 30 seconds. In the worst case, one perk gained enough time to fix one generator. At best, he won the game, even if it was on an equal match before this moment. And that's ONE perk on ONE survivor.
I'm not even going to say how strong hooking cancellations are now in any way due to the fact that the whole killers meta is based on this, because it seems like you don't understand it anyway.
It's cringe to see people defence weaponizing DS, because survivors cried for two years "we need DS 5 seconds back, we get tunneled so much" and now they literally asked for that. Turned out survivors just wanted "I want to be invincible and annoy killer without any punishment." Never happened before and here we go again.3 -
Why are you eating DS? You do not have to pick up a survivor you know has been recently unhooked.
Slug them, and go keep chasing that injured survivor. They get a protection hit's worth of distance, and in exchange, you're occupying two survivors at once. That's to your benefit.
Yes, denying hooks is very strong. DS cannot be used to deny hooks unless the killer is tunnelling, because it can't be weaponised in the way that people are talking about it being weaponised. You never have to take the bait, you never have to eat DS.
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Who even said I am going to pick him up? If I pick up a survivor with ds, I will no longer find the trace of the survivor I was originally running after to begin with. It is clear as 2+2 that I will slug him.
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…Then what's the problem?
You said you "eat DS", which you're clearly not doing if you're slugging the survivor. You do have to give the unhooker a little bit of distance, but you get a slug out of it, which is to your benefit.
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I mean they could easily just solve this in general since the point of anti tunnel endurance as well isn't you can just run around with a shield on protecting your teammates. For the length of the endurance. Make em lose collision. That way the killer can run into them if they have OTR or bt endurance. And if DS is in the mix. Maybe after like 10 seconds or something make protection hits disable DS. Then they just go back to being exclusive to protecting you. Like they are kinda supposed to. No need to keep arguing the point when they could easily fix the miniscule abuse they do have. (Despite how minor it can be)
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Bruh. Changed this part, so you can understand it better.
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I wasn't intending to be pedantic, those are completely different statements.
In that case, you're overestimating how much distance survivors actually make after a protection hit. It's not nothing, but it isn't enough that the chase ends up dragging on forever, and you still have a slug on the ground giving you more time to chase because you're getting more slowdown out of it than normal.
The situation you're describing is beneficial to you, not to the survivors.
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I'm absolutely in favour of these changes, but they'd fix other problems. They're not fixes to survivors weaponising DS, because that's almost impossible and barely a problem when it can be done.
It would be a good idea, though. I'm not arguing against those changes.
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I typically don't have a problem with an offensive DS, but if it happens, they're getting tunneled out of the game, pure and simple. I do my best to avoid tunneling, but if you use DS to protect another teammate, my focus is on you until your out of the game. Best to just let me chase the unhooker, yes?
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So yeah, we're back to what i said in first sentence.
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I dont want to discredit others and their replies.
But…
I do feel, wholly, that this idea of DS being a weapon is just another attempt to excuse their behaviour. I actually think a lot of killers on here do feel bad about tunneling all the time. These things are how they cope with it. "Last game a survivor BM'd me. This team will get whats coming!" This is fine of course, whatever. But Im still calling it out. But to fit with the topic, "That survivor was unhooked and probably has DS. Guess they want tunneled!"
But on topic, I agree with you also. Weaponizing this is turning the perk around to fit a scenario that works for the killers! But there is no weaponizing happening. People get unhooked and bodyblock anyway. Saying DS is doing it just makes them feel good all over.I don't think people understand DS was brought back to fight the tunneling meta. Killers are just trying to wrap it into a package they can get bhvr to change.
All imo of course. Probably wrong on some lol. But this thread was a good point. Spot on!
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think it also because they can have unbreakable with they can get back up everything the killer does waste they time as 2 or 3 survivors are on gens.
every hit wastes time so if the killer got to hit the same survivor 3 or 4 time that pretty much 4 gens with out trying.
also the whole weaponise DS is normally with lockers.
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If they force you to slug them and then use Unbreakable, they've wasted two perks. They didn't get DS value, and they used Unbreakable when they could've needed it for a crucial moment.
In this scenario, it's not two or three survivors on gens, it's two. If the survivor who just got unhooked wasn't trying this bodyblock nonsense, it'd be three. That's why this is honestly better for you in most scenarios.
With lockers it's a non-issue, you can just ignore lockers in almost all scenarios.
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Also, being unable to body block would remove some survivor player agency. I've heard this tossed around now and then so, guess this is just fine as is.
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I made a post a few days ago about this topic, and it was very interesting to see the opinions everyone has on it and why the like/dislike it. I did learn a bit though from some replies, and that is that many seemed to actually prefer more people on gens then to deal with DS being used this way.
Which I was honestly surprised about, because typically the less people on gens the lower chance of survival. Even if someone loops the killer for 5 minutes straight, wasting a bunch of time, it doesn't matter if nobody is on gens. But whenever points about the counter to this DS were brougt up, how 1 would be slugged with the DS and then you go after the other in a chase, and then the 1 that has to get the unhooks or the pickup meaning that leaves 1 out of 4 to work on a gen, it seemed many would prefer just the 1 down and the other 3 on gens. It's about preference I guess.
Anyways, I hope you get some good discusions, and hopefully everyone is kind and respectful!
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DS can be used to deny hooks
1 I'm chasing an injured survivor and I'm about to down them but another injured survivor comes who just got off hook I hit them (BT basekit endurance) they continue to bodyblock (because they know they safe with DS) and get downed but I can't hook them(DS) I have to start new chase with the injured survivor I was chasing before who may have got healed after hitting the DS user twice.(see if I downed the one I was chasing I could of hooked them)
that's deny hooks and wasting time the killer does not have.
here one for weaponise DS
I'm chasing an injured survivor and I'm about to down them but another injured survivor comes who just got off hook I hit them (BT basekit endurance) they continue to bodyblock (because they know they safe with DS) and get downed but I can't hook them(DS)
now I'm in chase with injured survivor again ds user slugged I finally down injured survivor but slugged ds user crawled right on top of the survivor I just down now it a gamble when I pick up will I pick the survivor I just downed or the DS user.
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I would argue that DS truly can't be weaponized when stun/blind saves which result in another Survivor escaping the Killer's grasp is considered a Conspicuous Action.
What's stopping an unhooked Survivor with a flashlight and BGP + OTR/DS from running behind the Killer waiting for a blind or pallet save even when the Killer is chasing the unhooker or someone else?
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