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The Twins Feedback
Comments
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Perhaps, but then they might be quite weak, because the player knows he only needs to get away as far as possible to hold Victor hostage by being attached to him... Not sure if that is good design. Would be a bit similar to how he worked on PTB or do you mean he latches on the survivor on injure and on down?
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I welcome the quality of life improvements and I appreciate that you went back on your PTB design of Twins in response to the community's feedback. But now you of course did not end up really addressing the concerns that made you want to look at Twins to begin with. Namely their propensity to slug and their low pick rate. So with you having said that you may revisit Twins in the future, here are a few suggestions I would have for possible design changes:
First of all, your idea of having Victor latch onto downed survivors is a good way to prevent the ability of Victor to down multiple injured survivors in quick succession. One of the issues with PTB Twins was that Victor would not latch onto injured survivors anymore, hence instead allowing him to injure multiple survivors in quick succession, as well as in quick succession injure and down any one survivor. The solution here is obvious: Simply have Victor latch onto both injured and downed survivors.
While Victor latching onto downed survivors and having to first be crushed by another survivor before they are able to heal them makes it more reliable to actually get to pick up a survivor you downed with Victor, it would still of course constitute a notable nerf, incurring more Victor downtime. To compensate for this, you could reduce the time before Charlotte can recall Victor while latched onto an injured or downed survivor to 20 instead of 30 seconds. This would make it so that overall Victor cooldown goes down if you actually pick up survivors you downed with Victor (because picking them up causes Victor to regrow immediately). Alternatively (or perhaps even additionally), you could give Charlotte that 10% Haste boost again whenever Victor is latched onto a survivor, enabling her to even more reliably pick up survivors Victor downed and making her more interesting and threatening than a barebones M1 killer, as well as adding more weight to the player choice of whether to recall Victor or not, whether to crush or keep him. I would say: If you keep the 30-second recall time, Charlotte should have the 10% Haste indefinitely for as long as Victor is latched onto a survivor; if you reduce the recall time, Charlotte like on the PTB should only retain this Haste buff until she hits a survivor.
I think switching between Victor and Charlotte could be even quicker, I don't see why it couldn't be instant. But regardless, while I feel that the quality of life improvements we have now will already encourage more players to play Twins a bit more, I think one major thing that makes them less popular a pick is the fact that the objectively optimal way to use Victor is to run right up to a survivor and only then pounce on them point-blank. This not only all but guarantees you will get the hit, but it comes without the risk of missing and getting kicked, which feels bad. To make Twins more fun and popular with both sides, I think encouraging medium and long-range pounces is crucial, as they are really fun to pull off and to dodge. There are multiple ways to go about this, here are a few ideas:
- While Victor charges his pounce, he can be kicked. This would make it so that Victor has to try and attack with at least a little space between him and the survivor, while also creating more interaction between them, with the survivor at times trying to get close so as to potentially be able to kick him, and Victor having to let go of the charge if the survivor does get too close, then repositioning and trying again.
- The time before Charlotte can recall Victor while latched onto a survivor could scale with the distance from which Victor pounced on the survivor. Fairly simple: For every 1 meter of distance Victor pounced across before latching on during the successful attack, the recall time is reduced by 1 second. Whether the base recall time then has to remain at 30 seconds would have to be seen.
- The missed pounce cooldown (i. e. the time window within which survivors can kick Victor after a missed pounce) could scale with the pounce distance too, with longer pounces incurring a shorter cooldown. This would make it less likely to get kicked when going for ambitious pounces. If this would unfairly benefit Twins when Victor simply overshoots and gets a short cooldown despite having tried for a close-range hit, you could instead make it so that the regrow time after getting kicked scales with the pounce distance.
- There could be add-ons that further encourage going for ranged pounces. Such as an Iridescent add-on that allows Victor to instantly down survivors when he pounces on them from a certain distance (15 meters, perhaps?).
On a concluding note, I think Victor should be able to snuff Boon totems as well as rekindle destroyed totems for Pentimento. Circle Of Healing and Exponential hurt Twins more than any other killer, and seeing or hearing a Boon close by when you are out and about chasing survivors as Victor just feels awful, as you are not able to do anything about it and know that if you down someone, they will most likely be back up before you can make it there.
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They should keep being able to recall Victor when bound. Victor being held hostage was the largest problem with Twins.
3 -
The largest problem with twins was how clunky and buggy they are... The largest problem against twins is that the only real counterplay is holding Victor hostage, because otherwise twins will injure and down people faster than they can heal.
6 -
Perhaps they feel better to play as - bugs aside I always enjoyed them before; I haven't played as them since the update however I have played against them quite a number of times now.
They feel incredibly oppressive and absolutely terrible from the survivor perspective. You cannot prevent Victor anymore or keep him on your back as he has pretty much zero cooldown now, especially in solo queue this means you are relying on an extreme level of co-ordination that cannot be achieved with random teammates if you want to work around him.
Victor is the problem, and he has always been the problem. He is too quick, so manoeuvrable and so easy to utilise that if you aren't completely healthy then you are just dead, no loops, no anything.3 -
Once I jumped in a locker to prevent being pounced on. Victor got recalled before I broke out. Nutty.
2 -
Victor seems impossible to play against, by the time you hear him charging an attack he's already in the air. Also, Slugging is EVEN WORSE now.
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The counter play to Twins is not holding them hostage, that's just bad design. Their counter play is grouping and healing. Grouped so that every Victor down gets him kicked and the survivor picked up before she returns and healing so that they never have the chance to chain slug, which is the only way they can win. With the respawn time of Victor increased after being kicked you objectively have time to heal or pick up before she gets back unless Charlotte sent out Victor when she was literally already nearly on top of you, which is very rarely the case. This is without taking a single healing perk or medkit into count, we're talking literal base kit here, and rarely do I ever see a match without at least some healing perk or multiple medkits. Any healing perks or medkits makes this significantly easier. Then there's also the counter play of locker jumping, which is most of the time effective as she is rarely close enough to get there before you break out. This also ends her chain slugging and forces a pick up even if she does reach you in time. That is their counter play. While their bugs have always been annoying, it was not their main issue, it was taking Victor hostage that was. The "clunky" is Victor being taken hostage, as well as the 5 second stun on every successful down. Those two things are why people found them unfun to play.
The Victor early recall is confirmed a bug. So we're talking 30 seconds held hostage, then a 10 second recharge, then whatever travel time from Charlotte with Victor. That's 40 seconds on every single healthy injure where you are an m1 with no ability…that is extreme unhealthy design. How many minutes per match is that of having no power? A lot.
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Well we will see if it works out like that in practiser, but I doubt it...
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It hasn't been a problem ever since they made it 30secs max. It (slightly) balanced it out Victor's power and gave some counterplay to survs. Now Twins is "dodge the gremlin running at the speed of sound or die in less than 40 seconds".
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We’ve already seen how it works out in practice. Those hostage numbers are the same ones we had before. Only difference being it will be a little bit longer than before since the respawn has increased.
2 -
It's amazing - i love bleeding out on the ground for whole match.
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the live patch was the smart move, the rework wasn’t necessary, just needed the long cooldowns reduced to feel more fluid and less clunky. Their kit still kind of encourages slugging but it’s not nearly as bad as it would’ve been with the rework.
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Being able to recall Victor while he is latched is WAY too strong. There is very little management on the killer's side because you almost always have Victor available. Being able to take Victor hostage was a big part of their counterplay and, assuming recall off a latched survivor is intentional, not having it available is severely crippling.
I used to like playing the Twins, but they feel less interesting and far too strong now.
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Well lucky for you that been confirmed as a bug is going to be fixed. To bad some of us actually like the fact our power can't be held hostage for 30+ secs and be forced to play a powerless boring killer but it's whatever. I just wish they made Charlotte little more interesting play when you are forced to play her since I do understand having access to Victor is really strong. I just don't like the only counterplay is to make the person play a boring M1 killer with no power.
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I bet you're the kind of player that when you're winning, you like to stay at the exit gate and bag or click your flashlight to taunt. Then you'll complain about slugging.
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The changes are fantastic. Now only the add-ons need reworks and the latched on recall timer (because of the status effect add-ons). I would nerf the latched on recall timer to 20 seconds, which is a good sweetspot in my opinion and add the Blindness and Ehausted status effects to a latched on survivor for as long as Victor remains on them., the add-on changes Iwould make:
Weighty Rattle:
After a survivor crushes idle Victor, he suffers from the Broken Status effect for 40 seconds, if they were injured.
If a survivor crushes Victor when attached they will suffer from the Broken status effect for 30 seconds.
If Charlotte recalls Victor from a survivors back, they will suffer from the broken status effect for 120 seconds.Pounce attacks that down survivors suffer from the Broken status effect for 40 seconds.
Note: this punishes survivors for holding Victor hostage, all of the othet status effect ones are for that.
Rusted Neddle:
After a survivor crushes idle Victor, he suffers from the Mangled and Hemorrhage status effects for 70 seconds, if they were injured.
If a survivor crushes Victor when attached they will suffer from the Mangled and Hemorrhage status effects for 70 seconds.
If Charlotte recalls Victor from a survivors back, they will suffer from the Mangled and Hemorrhage status effect for 120 seconds.Pounce attacks that down survivors suffer from the Mangled and Hemorrhage status effects for 670 seconds.
Baby teeth:
After a survivor crushes idle Victor, they suffers from the Oblivious status effects for 60 seconds.
If a survivor crushes Victor when attached they will suffer from the Oblivious status effects for 60 seconds.
If Charlotte recalls Victor from a survivors back, they will suffer from the Oblivious status effect for 120 seconds.Pounce attacks that down survivors suffer from the Oblivious status effect for 60 seconds.
Cat Figurine:
After a survivor crushes idle Victor, they suffers from the Blindness status effects for 60 seconds.
If a survivor crushes Victor when attached they will suffer from the Blindness status effects for 60 seconds.
If Charlotte recalls Victor from a survivors back, they will suffer from the Blindness status effect for 120 seconds.Pounce attacks that down survivors suffer from the Blindness status effect for 60 seconds.
Cheremonial Candlebrum:
After a survivor crushes idle Victor, they suffers from the Exhausted status effects for 15 seconds.
If a survivor crushes Victor when attached they will suffer from the Exhausted status effects for 15 seconds.
If Charlotte recalls Victor from a survivors back, they will suffer from the Exhausted status effect for 60 seconds.Pounce attacks that down survivors suffer from the Exhausted status effect for 15 seconds.
Sewer Sludge:
Pounce attacks that down survivors make them recover 25% slower.
Drop of Perfume:
Charlotte gains a 10% Haste when Victor is attached.
Increases the time it takes t ocrush Victor, while attacked be 6 seconds.
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I still don’t know why people keep saying the early recall is 10 seconds, as if Victor was immediately useable after 10 seconds. It actually takes a bit over 20 seconds to unbind Victor again, right?
10 seconds for the early recall + 10 seconds to regrow Victor + 0.75 seconds to unbind Victor, + whatever time is takes to camera switch to Victor. There’s also X seconds of time for Victor to actually get back to the survivor.
The current recall process, which overall takes 20+ seconds should be a good balancing point for Victor latching onto a survivor, right? It can’t honestly be intended for this whole process to take 40+ seconds, if the “early recall” timer goes back to 30 seconds????????And remember that Victor latches onto endurance hits, so Twins wouldn’t even be able to avoid be held hostage by only using Victor on injured survivors. Every DS hit, every OTR hit, etc, is potentially another 40+ seconds of Victor hostage.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on2 -
I would classify myself as a fairly average Twins player in ability, and have by no means spent thousands of hours playing them. That being said, these are my thoughts.
I'm glad that the PTB changes weren't fully implemented. I am a console player and don't have access to the finer features DBD has to offer like PTB, but I watch hours of content creators playing every day when I myself am not in the fog. The initial changes were outrageously strong. Frankly, I never found Twins clunky or slow to play, I feel like every killer has a learning curve and they were already well balanced, at least for my playstyle.
They are still buggy, as I am sure everyone is aware of. However, I find the final changes to be pretty satisfying and not too far from the original functionality. If the bugs can be solved, I think they stand to be a perfectly acceptable rework.
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Nope.
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I don’t understand how so many people are okay with a 40 second Victor hostage hold on every.single.injure. This has to be from a solely survivor perspective and not having actually played the killer. Playing an m1 killer with no power for minutes on minutes of every match should just intuitively sound like bad design and unfun to anyone.
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I mean to be fair the whole killer is bad design in that sense... The design aims at slugging and offers very little counterplay against experienced twins players besides holding him hostage... So that is the lesser evil compared to a stronger version that is just as frustrating to go against.
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40 second Victor hostage on every single injure AND every single endurance hit. If the early recall gets nerfed, then reworked Twins will be a massive nerf compared to the pre-reworked Twins.
And Victor needs to latch onto endurance hits, or he needs to be immune to kicking on an endurance hit. Otherwise we’re back to Victor getting kicked after every endurance hit, which is super clunky.
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Well I suppose my argument is that people should be recommending an alternative or a change to alleviate that problem, not just welp I’d rather you suffer than me.
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Yeah getting kicked on Endurance hits was super annoying. Like it was punishing you for landing your hit.
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Not necessarily... You can just complain and tell that something sucks as the consumer, it is technically not your job to do that for BHVR... I guess it would be helpful though.
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It would just seem selfish to only care about the experience of one side. It doesn’t necessarily have to come with an answer to the problem. They could simply say something is bad but agree it would need to come with something on the other side. In other words they don’t need to do the devs job to care about both sides.
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They could simply say something is bad but agree it would need to come with something on the other side
That should only be the case when both sides are in a similar level to each other. I do care about the experience of both sides as i don't main either role but Twins are not being neglected right now. They already got several "somethings"/buffs in the last patch. despite being tier A. A proper rework would have been better but they at least got something.
Zero changes where made to improve the gameplay experience against them. If anything it would be selfish to complain about survivors being given some improvement as well.
So long as a point blank Victor pounce is so easy to hit it would not be balanced to give him high uptime.
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I would've put them previously B not A tier, and anything in B needs needs improvements. I would say they're neglected once they return taking Victor hostage. None of their QoL changes fix any of the reasons that made them unfun to play.
There was no problems with the experience of facing Twins. The only issue with them was being unfun to play because Victor was taken hostage.
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The issue with facing twins was the slugging, tge feeling that besides holding him hostage that there was no counterplay and that the chase interaction against Victor is pretty one-sided.. To say there was no issue facing them ignores all community complaints, considering BHVR even mentioned the slugging as an issue during the PTB rework
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Slugging with Twins was not an issue. There is nothing inherently wrong with slugging and the hate of it is irrational. Twins also has tons of counter play. There counter play is grouping and healing. Grouping so that each down gets Victor kicked and the person picked up before charlotte can get there and healing because the only way twins wins is through chain slugging. So slowing the game down and keeping healed breaks their win condition. Holding Victor hostage was not there only counter play, that was just bad design. Just because a lot of the community complains doesn’t mean it’s a rational complaint, the average player in dbd is very bad.
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So you would say good players played it like that? Should we have seen that type of gameplay in comp then? Because they would know how to properly play against twins and not just hold Victor hostage? But oops we didn't.. So what could this mean?
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"So you would say good players played it like that?"
Yes.
"Should we have seen that type of gameplay in comp then?"
Yes. We did.
I would say comp is a very poor metric for measuring anything though. They have a whole slew of separate rules that change what they run, how they play, and skew end results.
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It would just seem selfish to only care about the experience of one side.
There is nothing inherently wrong with slugging and the hate of it is irrational. Twins also has tons of counter play
You complain about it being selfish to only care about the experience of one side them proceed to dismiss the experience and complaints of one side. Rather hypocritical.
Twins also has tons of counter play. There counter play is grouping and healing
Forced Hesitation screws that up. Its not hard to counter the grouping up if you know what you are doing. Also good luck coordinating that strat with solo queue randoms that you can't communicate with.
As for the healing: you need a strong heal/anti-slug build on at least 2 different survivors for this to work against a half decent Twins. Base kit healing can't keep up with Victor.
Just because a lot of the community complains doesn’t mean it’s a rational complaint, the average player in dbd is very bad.
That sort of statement only works when discussing weak killers/perks. Twins is not weak and requires coordination to beat, in a game where solo queue has no tools to communicate with each other. That is not a skill issue. Its bad game design.
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"You complain about it being selfish to only care about the experience of
one side them proceed to dismiss the experience and complaints of one
side. Rather hypocritical. "Incorrect. I do care about the experience of the other side. I play survivor regularly and enjoy that experience, even against Twins, and even with slugging. Me not thinking slugging is an issue, is not me not caring about the other sides experience. Those aren't the same thing.
"Forced Hesitation screws that up. Its not hard to counter the grouping
up if you know what you are doing. Also good luck coordinating that
strat with solo queue randoms that you can't communicate with. "You don't have to communicate to stick together, there isn't coordination needed. It's common sense when you face Twins. You can play around Forced Hesitation. Forced Hesitation simply lowers the max distance you can be from the teammate you're grouped with for the kick.
"As for the healing: you need a strong heal/anti-slug build on at least 2
different survivors for this to work against a half decent Twins. Base
kit healing can't keep up with Victor."This is just factually incorrect. We can look at the heal/pick up times to compare the numbers. The only time this isn't possible is if Charlotte is extremely close to you, which usually isn't the case. I'm talking base kit here, not even medkits or healing/slug perks. Very easy if you're running any of those, and when's the last time you had a match with zero medkits or healing/anti slug perks? Very, very rare.
"That sort of statement only works when discussing weak killers/perks.
Twins is not weak and requires coordination to beat, in a game where
solo queue has no tools to communicate with each other. That is not a
skill issue. Its bad game design."Their counter play does not require coordination. You just simply understand healing and grouping. You don't need to pass information through your teammates. Not knowing Twins counter play is a skill issue. What is bad design is Victor being taken hostage.
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Incorrect. I do care about the experience of the other side. I play survivor regularly and enjoy that experience, even against Twins, and even with slugging. Me not thinking slugging is an issue, is not me not caring about the other sides experience. Those aren't the same thing.
Considering the amount of people that complain about slugging yes it is part of their experience. You not caring about it means it does not affect you. But it still sounds like you don't care about their experience. "this does not affect me so its ok" is a selfish stance to take.
You don't have to communicate to stick together, there isn't coordination needed. It's common sense when you face Twins. You can play around Forced Hesitation. Forced Hesitation simply lowers the max distance you can be from the teammate you're grouped with for the kick.
You need to know where people are. Especially Important at the beginning of the match. Also i can't guarantee that my team mate knows the counterplay and i can't tell them either.
Forced Hesitation also makes it easier to down both if Charlotte is nearby. Why are we ignoring that possibility?
This is just factually incorrect. We can look at the heal/pick up times to compare the numbers. The only time this isn't possible is if Charlotte is extremely close to you, which usually isn't the case. I'm talking base kit here, not even medkits or healing/slug perks.
Again: Why are we ignoring Charlotte being nearby? If doing so lets you pressure and potentially down 2 people greeding the same generator. Why assume that the survivors are amazing and playing flawlessly but the Twins are just mindlessly sending Victor to his death? Even high level Swfs screw up. Its not a realistic expectation from a solo team. And its not fair to assume Twins are playing in to the counter with no adaptation.
Very easy if you're running any of those, and when's the last time you had a match with zero medkits or healing/anti slug perks? Very, very rare.
I like to run h
ealing perks. But most people i see don't do that. Medkits run out very fast when playing against a killer that gets free hits every 30/40 seconds. Anti slug? Aside from FTP + Buckle up i don't see many, And this one requires one person to be healthy already. Unbreakable is a little bit more common now but is a one time use. Not that it matters. You should not need specific perks to counter a killer in a game with no drafting.Their counter play does not require coordination. You just simply understand healing and grouping. You don't need to pass information through your teammates. Not knowing Twins counter play is a skill issue.
It does if the Twins is actually good at adapting, disrupting and spreading pressure. Its not as simple in practice as you are implying. Grouping up and healing is not the hard counter you are making it to be.
What is bad design is Victor being taken hostage.
Yes it is. Having a free hit available every 30/40 seconds is bad game design as well. Twins is not a well designed killer. I would be fine with them having short cooldowns/no hostage taking if point blank pounces where not so free to land.
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"Considering the amount of people that complain about slugging yes it is
part of their experience. You not caring about it means it does not
affect you. But it still sounds like you don't care about their
experience. "this does not affect me so its ok" is a selfish stance to
take."So you think we should rule by majority then? If you're building a plane should we listen to the majority that knows nothing about building planes or the few that do? You're never going to please everyone. There are no rational reasons to hate Twins or slugging. I follow what's rational, not what the majority thinks as most can be irrational. My stance has nothing to do with "does not affect me", it's objective. "Fun" is subjective, but "something" is objectively more fun than "nothing". You can do nothing on a hook except remove yourself from the game where there are multiple interactions and things that can be done on the ground. I would always rather be slugged.
"You need to know where people are. Especially Important at the
beginning of the match. Also i can't guarantee that my team mate knows
the counterplay and i can't tell them either.Forced Hesitation also makes it easier to down both if Charlotte is nearby. Why are we ignoring that possibility?"
It's a team game, that's what DBD is. By saying you can't guarantee your teammates know the counter play is like saying, "what if my teammates are bad". Yes, if people play bad, they lose. That's how games work.
Charlotte is normally not that close by. It's a possibility yes, but rarely the case. In order to keep having Charlotte close enough by every single time they have to be playing very inefficient and spending more time on Charlotte than they should be. I rarely experience issues with this and I play significantly more than the average player for a large sample size of data. The exceptions don't make the rule.
"Again: Why are we ignoring Charlotte being nearby? If doing so lets you
pressure and potentially down 2 people greeding the same generator. Why
assume that the survivors are amazing and playing flawlessly but the
Twins are just mindlessly sending Victor to his death? Even high level
Swfs screw up. Its not a realistic expectation from a solo team. And its
not fair to assume Twins are playing in to the counter with no
adaptation."It's not assuming the Twins is bad, it's because even that that specific case is a smart play for them it's overall bad is it's killing their map pressure spending way more time on Charlotte lugging her around the map than they should be. So while beneficial in that immediate encounter it's overall negative for them in the game in general. You want to be spending as little time on Charlotte as possible. Also, if you want to assume the survivors are much worse then we can also assume the Twins is much worse and assume Charlotte is rarely nearby right? It goes both ways.
"I like to run h
ealing perks. But most people i see don't do that.
Medkits run out very fast when playing against a killer that gets free
hits every 30/40 seconds. Anti slug? Aside from FTP + Buckle up i don't
see many, And this one requires one person to be healthy already.
Unbreakable is a little bit more common now but is a one time use. Not
that it matters. You should not need specific perks to counter a killer
in a game with no drafting. "You realize a hit "every 30/40 seconds" is the killer losing the game right? That is extremely slow. As a killer if you aren't getting a hit in sub 25 seconds max, you are losing the game. You don't have the time to spend more than that in chases. So no, 30/40 seconds per hit is not an issue, it's winning you the game as survivor. Buckle Up is extremely good against Twins for the Endurances since it forces a Victor attach allowing a momentary Victor hostage every time. You're also ridiculously down playing how good Unbreakable is. It is not just 1 wipe reset. The increased recovery is in effect on every slug. So your team is picking you up way faster even if you had already used it. It's also completely meta and in nearly every single match at high mmr. You shouldn't need specific perks to counter a killer I agree, and you don't, they simply make it easier. Medkits run out fast because they're extremely good. By the time the medkits are running out you've already killed so much pressure the gens are almost done.
"It does if the Twins is actually good at adapting, disrupting and
spreading pressure. Its not as simple in practice as you are implying.
Grouping up and healing is not the hard counter you are making it to be."It's not simple. If it was simple they wouldn't be a good killer. It takes skill.
"Yes it is. Having a free hit available every 30/40 seconds is bad game
design as well. Twins is not a well designed killer. I would be fine
with them having short cooldowns/no hostage taking if point blank
pounces where not so free to land."Which is why I've made forum posts listing change ideas to Victor.
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So you think we should rule by majority then? If you're building a plane should we listen to the majority that knows nothing about building planes or the few that do?
If we where to "rule" based on the best players i could just point you to Lyinxi who wins with Twins even against coordinated teams. Even before the buffs Twins got this patch.
Or how about Otz? In his tier list he placed Twins as at worst B even on bad maps/if countered. But at best tier A+.
Looking at high level players this Killer seems very strong even before the current patch.
You realize a hit "every 30/40 seconds" is the killer losing the game right? That is extremely slow. As a killer if you aren't getting a hit in sub 25 seconds max, you are losing the game.
Those 30 seconds are very generous and include cooldowns. Once Victor finds a survivor the hit is coming much faster. The ""chases"" are very short. Yes a 30/40 second chase is usually bad. I am aware.
Also my main complaint is the "free" part of that hit.
It's not assuming the Twins is bad, it's because even that that specific case is a smart play for them it's overall bad is it's killing their map pressure spending way more time on Charlotte lugging her around the map than they should be.
Downing 2 survivors is bad now? Most maps are not big anymore. And with slowdown perks and macro play you can afford to move her a little while you wait for Victor.
So your team is picking you up way faster even if you had already used it
That is a fair point. But i don't trust solo players to have the coordination to make good use of that.
Medkits run out fast because they're extremely good. By the time the medkits are running out you've already killed so much pressure the gens are almost done.
This is true versus most killers. Its kinda baffling how many people in these forums think medkits are bad.
But with Victor's currently high uptime he can burn though charges very fast. That was my point. Not really saying medkits are bad.
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I try not to ever mention anyone by name as that can walk the line of breaking forum rules if anything said is viewed as negative so all my comments are in generalities.
Many popular streamers want the game balanced for different things with most of them wanting it balanced for average players, aka people playing bad. This is how the game is currently balanced and why it causes issues at the higher level when it's actually good vs good players. Winning against coordinated groups through tunneling which doesn't take skill or represent game balance and winning through hooks are representative of two different things so I would not use them synonymously.
So hypothetically if I wanted the game balanced for bad players as many popular streamers do I might have the same opinions they do, but I don't. I want the game balanced for good vs good players, and no I do not mean top 1%, I mean like top 20% or even 30%. My point with this is that pointing to things that popular streamers think on a topic can skew the perspective as their subjective end goal may be different. For reference though on experience I have as much hours in DBD as Otz does roughly.
30 seconds for chase is not generous as you are saying though, that's objective, it's the literally intended hostage hold time. Then you added respawn time of 10 seconds. So we're looking at 40 seconds just to get Victor released again..not even traverse the map or chase time, literally just spawning Victor.
I never said down 2 people was bad and is mischaracterizing what I said. You aren't downing two people in that scenario and what i said was bad was so much invested time on Charlotte keeping her close to every single Victor chase you make.
You say you don't trust randoms to pick you up but that is quite literally what the game is balanced around, solos. It's balanced around assuming you'll have bad teammates. This is why swf breaks the games balance so much.
As referenced prior, I'm not against adding more counter play to Victor, I even made a post with ideas of how to do so. I'm just arguing what Twins counter play is currently and that holding Victor hostage shouldn't be a thing as it's unhealthy design and why no one plays Twins.
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The patch notes says removed twin's ability to recall. so they essentially changed nothing about twins and didn't fix any of their issues after 2 years. the main two was victor hostage taking and the extremely slow-win condition of slugging. in all that time, there could so many changes to other killers. what a great excuse for laziness. Hopefully their next killer changes are actually changing the killer and not just pretending that they're changing the game.
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I mean they tried to change them in the PTB bit oh well ^^ So what we currently have was just qol... Not the real fix for the whole issue.
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Well, today is the day where twins go back to being an unfun, boring killer for most ppl. Glad the 6 twin mains out there got what they wanted, I can't wait to see pick rates in a few months and see twins being at the bottom as always. Meanwhile, I going to be playing actually fun killers who power cant be taken from them at the will of the survivors for minutes. Enjoy your slugfest, no power having killer Twin mains. God I wish I never got this killer years ago…wish I could get my shards back since even most of twin perks are completely useless other than coup but Im not a fan of it either.
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Twins are officially worse off now, than they were before the rework, because survivors can hold their power hostage for even longer now.
Twins would literally be better off if the entire rework was fully reverted.
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It’s quite unfortunate. Their number one core issue and why no one played them was Victor getting taken hostage and now not only is it not fixed but the time he’s held hostage is even longer lol. They’re going to remain completely unplayed and these changes accomplished nothing. Very sad.
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Thats very questionable xD
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The number 1 reason why Twins were unfun to play, was the Victor hostages, which are objectively longer now.
And if Victor is vulnerable after a successful endurance hit, then the DS buff made things much worse for Twins, because it encourages survivors to combo it with endurance perks like OTR. Endurance hurts Twins more than most other killers, because when Victor bounces off of endurance, Twins is stuck watching Victor try to recover, then get kicked, then die, then switch back to Charlotte, then wait for Charlotte is be able to move again. It’s a clunky process that makes Twins unfun to play.
The quality of life for Twins is now so horribly low, that I won’t be playing them anymore. This entire rework was a massive failure, and the entire thing should be reverted.
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For the hit on endurance, there are basically two ways this can go, either you get stuck on the survivor or you bounce off of them... Which is worse? Being not kick able after the endurance hit would make the status effect worthless so it is one of the two...
I would not call the current changes a rework... It is not more than quality of life changes.
As for the changes... We have faster transition, faster unbinding of Victor, reduced charge time, being able to recall Victor whenever you want... So he is not in the middle of nowhere and you don't need to walk all that distance back. And as far as the nerf goes we have increased return time for Victor from 6 to 10 seconds... Where did the hostage taking time got changed from before? Because as far as I can see that from the 7.7.0 patchnotes the recall time did not get changed? Other than the short period of time where it was ridiculously low...
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shorter regrowth time is better then all those changes. so in many ways @Coffeecrashing is right that twin is now worse then before QOL.
I do agree. big L for rework.
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None of the quality of life improvements are worth the extra hostage time.
The full power hostage time ends when Twins can control Victor again. That includes the time it takes to regrow Victor, which was increased during the PTB (to balance the faster recall time), and is still happening now (even though the faster recall time was completely reverted). And honestly, I'd rather Victor just instantly die on a successful endurance hit, so we can get back to Charlotte quicker. Decent survivors will always successfully kick Victor on a successful endurance hit, so it would actually be a quality of life improvement for Victor to instantly die on a successful endurance hit.
I don't think people understand how many games I've been in, where survivors just hold Victor hostage, and teammates will bodyblock for that survivor, to maximize the amount of time Victor is held hostage. And the survivor with Victor will absolutely just run across the map, far away from any unrepaired generators, and hold onto Victor even if they aren't being chased, because their goal is to make the killer miserable. And if Victor tries to chase an injured survivor, then an uninjured survivor will try to bodyblock Victor, because they want to hold Victor hostage. The primary goal of these survivors is to try to make the killer as miserable as possible, by seeing how much time they can hold Victor hostage.
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I don't think the 4 more seconds are that big of a deal and the rest of the buffs make up for it completely. Aside from that I don't think their goal is to make the killer player miserable but to put themselves in a position where it is not worth it for the killer to hook them... Not everyone is trying to make your life miserable...
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