You Can't Weaponise DS

so, the killer can avoid the DS and waste the time on finding another survivor while the one that bodyblocked with DS gets to be reset? That's literally still a lose-lose situation lol

If it's so bad for survivors, why are so many of them doing it?
Obviously it's to their benefit when its usage in this way is so widespread. If it was making them lose more, they would stop doing it.

It's not just for "funny haha" we both know the community is not that fun loving, especially to their detriment. Otherwise we would see everyone running pebble.

I don't really see why if the situation is overall worse for the survivors in most cases there'd so many of them knowingly doing it on purpose.

My guess is overall the loss of the hook state and killer time wasted is more valuable than the little time the survivors lose on gens. Especially if Survivor with DS has Unbreakable or something to get up themselves. There was going to be at least 2 survivors off gens in either scenario. This one just waste more of the killers time, which is more gen time for the other 2.

I may be wrong but doesn't plot twist require the survivor go down without being hit? I've never ran it so I genuinely don't know. If that's the case, they aren't wasting your time with having to make a first hit or if endurance is in play, a second hit. It would be even less beneficial as now you are going to be even closer to the first person you were chasing without the distance loss from the hit.

The unhooked survivor wouldn't have wasted my time by denying a hook with DS. I never intended to hook them to begin with. My goal was the unhooked person. The free down from the hooked person is just someone not doing anything but wasting a few more seconds of my time and not doing gens. They can't mindgame me, they can't run me to another loop, etc... As they were never my target. Their only option for bodyblocking is to get in my way and make the hits free.

That being said, whether ds was in play or not. The scenario is still the same with 2 people possibly on gens except now there may even be 3. You also may not have the pressure from the slug and may still be in chase with the person you started with.

I'm not directing this next part directly towards you but it's starting to feel like people think survivors shouldn't be doing gens at all. A killer shouldn't be able to keep all 4 survivors off gens while they are chasing someone. There is/should always be at least one person on a gen but one or two is much better than three or four on them.

Nice thread, liked how you defended the arguments throughout.

I think the simple point is that survivors can run in and body block the killer with or without DS. Everything about whether protection hits give a lot of time or a little amount of time to the chased survivor is a moot point - the survivor can body block regardless of whether they have DS or not. Endurance can force the killer to eat through two hits, DS can only force one.

When you take is completely out of context, sure it sounds stupid.

DS can force killers to a lose lose situation where they HAS to slug or take the DS, it can be certainly weaponized

Whether it's efficient or not is not relevant to it

you can have just 2 survivors working on gens and be much more effective as a team than 4 survivors going for gens :D

yes, Plot Twist works withoug getting downed, meaning you can use Plot Twist after getting unhooked, or provoke killer into a chase and Plot Twist right before they are about to hit you, meaning easy value out of it.

we’re not talking about tournaments. We’re talking about normal gameplay in which the vast majority of matches don’t go the way you guys are describing. Youre all describing high level, coordinated SWFs who are running very specific builds all together which only happens in the top MMR games, according to BHVRs own stats.

In the low and mid tier games survivors aren’t going into matches to play like this and especially not at solo Q levels. It really seems like killer mains are taking that 1-2 matches where they got destroyed by survivors running DS, OTR, BU, FTP and using that to argue this “weaponizing DS” theory.

Even so, the OP is correct. Survivors do not want to be slugged so if you slug then even IF they have unbreakable (which they can only use once) it takes time to recover. It’s not an instant stand up. If you slug the person who may be running DS, you still have 2 survivors occupied and if they need another teammate to pick them up, that’s 3 survivors occupied which is a win for the killer.

For the “but I’m trying to play nice and not tunnel” crowd. Thats admirable BUT (and I say this as a survivor who hates all the constant tunneling) if you’ve got a survivor who is throwing themselves in your face, body blocking and trying to get you to eat their DS: tunnel them out. It’s one thing to tunnel someone off hook at 5 gens who isn’t in your face. It’s quite another to tunnel someone who is clearly going out of their way to get your attention on them. They want your attention so give it to them!

It depends on the state of the match, no?

If the killer only has 2 hooks and the survs are at 2 gens, the survs being able to delay the possibility of a hook is a win-win for them, regardless of whether one of them goes down, because time is ultimately on their side, especially if another teammate is in the area for a pickup or unbreakable is in play. The survivor has no hooks, and the killer's only map pressure comes from someone they can't use to progress their objective. In this situation I would rather be halfway through chasing the unhooker with the unhooked survivor healing or on a gen than have so much time wasted with a slug I can't pick up and nobody new to chase in sight, but that's just me.

That said, if there's a time and point in the match where the killer is up, like 6 hooks 4 gens, a DS bodyblock isn't nearly as effective because the killer doesn't need to rush with finishing their objective, so I'd actually perfer getting two survivors off gens, less so if Unbreakable is in play, but that's a whole perk deactivated. One could make the argument that this line of thinking could apply to many other perks, but DS bodyblock being almost entirely within a survivor's control, having such a possibly annoying effect, especially when this is supposed to be for an Anti-tunnel perk, it just feels bad. If you'll notice, tunneling isn't at all relevant to the playstyle we're referring to, so what did I do to get it incurred on me, what was my agency here in activating a perk that was only supposed to be useful depending on the killer's playstyle?

That's ultimately my issue with current DS. I don't think it's an issue at all when it's actually an Anti-tunnel perk, but when I'm halfway through a MacMillan match where 2 gens pop in the first minute, I challenge my single unhook up to this point in the game, and then Meg fr decides to give me the biggest hug of her life while Vittorio sprint bursts to main building where I know he's got Boil Over to use upstairs, I'm sorry, but the Anti-Tunnel perk made me tunnel. I didn't wanna, but what else was I genuinely going to do there?

For your 3rd point, it’s 100% false, literally.

Yes, OTR allows you to bodyblock hits. But then Killer has two option. He either chase you, or continue to chase the unhooker.

Now here’s what DS does. It STOPS Killers from going after YOU, even when you did such an aggressive play just because the risk of DS. No, don’t tell Killer to just slug you, because chasing & downing you takes time, while the remaining 3 Survivors are now all Gen Rushing without any fear because they know Killer can’t progress their objective (Hook You) even if you’re downed.

Yes you don’t get to actually ‘use’ DS to stun the Killer, but you already benefit hugely from it. If you still don’t understand, just play some Killer games.

Let's remember to keep the discussions in here civil, please. Thank you.

To be blunt, no, those things aren't weaponising DS. They're weaponising bodyblocking.

I don't really know how to approach this conversation given this statement, as it feels so completely devoid of context within the match it makes the rest of the conversation essentially untraversable.

I'll say this, if someone Body Blocks and doesn't have DS, that survivor is on death hook and I have even more pressure than five seconds ago. If that survivor has DS, I'm getting a five second stun. No, a survivor a cannot force you to activate their perk, that does not prevent them from reaping the reward the perk grants them by nature of its presence. You made this argument yourself by saying the best thing to do against DS is purposely not pick up the surv, meaning DS actively affected your decision making process in the bodyblocking. How a perk can completely change the action you take in a situation, yet somehow be exempt from weaponizing said situation is something I simply don't feel like arguing over.

If that hasn't convinced you that DS affects bodyblocking and allows it's weaponization, therefore being weaponized in the process, I don't really think this is a conversation worth either of our times, sorry.

I see, but this relies soley on the idea that DS Bodyblock is always detrimental to the survivors. Which, if this were true, killers would slug the first survivor off hook all the time, because that would therefore always be the best thing to do, right?

Hypothetical. There's 1 gen left, and someone Body Blocks you off hook with DS, the unhooker is on death hook. Is your mindset "oh boy the next survivor is absolutely making it to the next god Pallet, but at least I have a slug while the last gen is being done across the map." Or are you thinking "I need that Unhooker dead right nooooooooow." Is Adrenaline in play? Is Unbreakable in play? You don't know either of these things. Depending on that answer, there's one or two survivors on the final gen, and that slug won't be slugged for longer than thirty seconds. You've lost five seconds of distance on the Unhooker, can you make it?

My mindset is the latter, I assume you're the former. This is likely where the crux of our disagreement lies. I simply don't see DS as nearly as hard to get genuine use out of in this context, and I don't believe these situations are as uncommon as you.

I don't want it to seem like I'm calling you crazy or anything, and tbh it's disappointing to see how uncivil people are about this. I'm still honestly less peeved about the actual perk effect and more annoyed that it's on what's supposed to be an Anti-Tunnel perk, and that a lot of survivors try the strat and then get upset in the endgame chat when it backfires. I liked 3 second DS more simply because at this current point in the games life where Tunneling was already one of the most hotly debated topics, buffing it to 5 seconds feels like a Bandaid for the strat without actually solving it whilst allowing for another toxic situation that doesn't even fit how the perk is designed.

I'd disagree there that slugging is the best option. That slug can get Adrenaline or Unbreakable, which results in nothing for a killer. I'd hook that survivor to force at least someone to eventually unhook. Chase the unhooker and hope that you can down both survivors on death hook for a tie before the gen and gate are done. The alternative is slugging the unhooked and booking it to the final gen, which gives survivors a chance to reset what otherwise would be a situation in your favor as you now need to leave the only death hook survivor alone and risk the final gen being done in your face.

In other words, DS is preventing me from the making the play I think is the best call despite my actively not tunneling (ie respecting its activation condition). That's weaponized. I don't really care if bodyblocking is what's causing my problem, it's that DS is a get out of jail free card from the consequences that should come with making that decision. You can disagree with me, but that doesn't make you right, and I shouldn't be forced into a situation like that by a perk that is patently not designed to make that situation possible.

Time.

Killer doesn't always have the time to waste on a new chase across the map, especially if survivors pre-run from their gen compared to say, someone who just unhooked in the killer's face before they could leave. This is how my current DS/OTR/UB build gets killers.