The gen defense nerfs will lead to slugging.
I'm calling it now.
The new meta will be slugging.
Deadlock isn't really that good of a perk, grim embrace was okish, the only ones worth anything were pop and pain res.
I really think people underestimate how long it takes killers to do anything. Do you know how long it takes to hook a survivor?
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- ~10 seconds to walk to a scourge hook (a little more than half the bar, sometimes more sometimes less, but scourge hooks are harder to get to sometimes)
- 1.5 second hook animation
Now, even if you KNOW exactly where the gen is that popped, and assume its only half a map away from you. Lets say its the gen on the very middle of the map. How long does it take to walk to that gen? About 11 seconds.
So you have
2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 + 11 = 28.2 seconds.
What is pain res NOW? 22 seconds off a gen.
Pain res LITERALLY does not pay for itself most of the time. Now you want to nerf it even more?
Any on top of that you want to nerf pop back to uselessness? When pop was at 20% nobody used it for a reason, 20% of CURRENT is nothing.
The only reason that "pain res is in nearly 40% of games" is because it is the "best" gen defense perk. But the game is LITERALLY BALANCED AROUDN THE IDEA THAT KILLERS MUST BRING GEN DEFENSE" Even top tier players and streamers basically admit this. Scott, otz, etc. all say that the game is balanced around killers bringing gen defense. Try not bringing gen defense some time in any high mmr game and watch you get destroyed.
I WANT to bring other perks, i DO NOT WANT to have to bring gen defense every game. PLEASE do the following:
- Nerf all of these perks harder. YES HARDER, cut them down even more. And nerf the other ones while you are at it
- BUFF the basekit gen kick to 10%
- BUFF the basekit gen regression to 200%
Make it like you have just done with leatherface. NERF THE ADDONS (in this case the perks) AND BUFF THE BASEKIT.
Comments
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Ok, then next time BHVR will nerf slugging, untill killers would learn to play fair, kthxbye
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Is fair when a killer hooks a survivor then immediately runs to the opposite end of the map, looks at the wall, and waits for them to get unhooked and healed before they target someone else?
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Gonna have to agree. Pop+Pain Res is used a lot because, let's be honest, it's the viable option.
I mostly run Surge as I like M1 killers, but Surge alone isn't exactly a great way to manage gens. I usually need something like Deadman's Switch (On my Sadako, teleporting usually gets a few gens blocked at a time) or Deadlock to compensate for a little more time.
I tend to avoid Pain Res because I dislike running builds solely around it, but at the same time I understand why some killers feel it's required and that's truly a problem. Heck, now toolboxes got a sweeping sabotage buff without correcting the repair speeds and I guarantee outside bully squads going for hook denial, survivors will stick to the usual Commodious+Charge addon combination. I know I am.
I did see people speculate gen repair is going to get some kinda change with the update and this is all preparation, but I'm going to be a bit skeptical on that take unless they do release something convincing.
Edit: Alternatively, they buff all the non-regression perks to viable states to compensate. I'd love that.
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Don’t argue tbh, you’ll never win. I like your ideas tho, base kick should’ve always been 10% considering you’re giving up valuable time to start a Gen regressing that can be immediately stopped by a survivor hiding nearby while you take a chase.
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I think that's probable, but you're falling into the trap of assuming that they'd be right to do it.
You currently don't need any slowdown at all unless you're someone who plays the game for a living and routinely faces against the top players in the world (a bias that those who this does apply to aren't great at recognising in themselves, but I suppose that's fair). It's nice to have, sure, but for the vast majority of the playerbase it just isn't necessary, you get more than enough slowdown just from playing the macro game and spreading your pressure properly.
Plus, y'know, there's the other slowdown perks that aren't being touched in this update and the ones in this update that are still going to be perfectly fine, so. Not like killer players are lacking options, perk viability is at the best it's been in a long time rn.
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I have already made it clear in other threads. I am tired of this argument that "it isn't necessary unless this game is your job". Or "SWF squads with clock callouts are rare" or "most survivors are bad you win most of your games"
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT KINDS OF GAMES I GET AND I'M TIRED OF YOU TELLING ME THAT.
I get these games CONSTANLTY. If i'm not running 2-3 gen defense perks, forget it, i'll lose 3 gens in the first chase, the first chased survivor will predrop 1 or 2 god pallets, and then the game is basically over at that point.
Stop projecting the games that YOU get onto other people.
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What about tunneling and camping? Those would need to be nerfed as well, because killers will surely resort to those strategies. Then the killer can learn how to play fair.
Only you will quickly realise that most killers in this game need some good slowdown options to be able to play fair and square, so if killers don't receive any compensation buffs in the cases of nerfs to slugging, camping and tunneling, I think the more likely outcome will be very long survivor queue times.
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slugging someone takes 4 minutes. it is absurd amount of time that even hooking and getting hit by DS is faster then 4 minute slugging.
i don't think perk changes will do anything besides kill pop goes weasel. that means you'll see more pain res/grim embrace/deadlock.
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It's entirely possible you, specifically, are one of the exceptions that I refer to in the post. It's entirely possible this applies to you because you're one of the small number of people it's relevant for.
There is no projection in responding to takes about how the game should be balanced, though. If you are one of those exceptions, the fact that your experience is not universal and does not apply to the vast majority of the playerbase is extremely relevant to any conversations about how the game should be balanced as a result.
Even for those I'm referring to (potentially including you) it's not as though there aren't options. Pain Res will still be more than viable, Deadlock will be more than viable, Grim Embrace will be more than viable, and that's just the stuff in this update. This idea that you need to run the absolute best possible stuff and that best possible stuff can't ever be nerfed doesn't apply to anyone, not even the exceptions to the overall rule.
I'm not telling you anything about the games you get. I'm responding to your argument.
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It has been proven time and time again. That yes, tunnelers gonna tunnel and campers gonna camp. That will always happen. But every time they nerf gen defense, you see MORE tunneling and MORE camping.
Notice how people have been complaining constantly since the nerfs to eruption, and ruin, and pain res (to be what it is now) and all the other changes about tunneling more and more?
When you nerf the only viable way to slow the game down, that is already HELLA fast even with that slowdown, then killers will have to resort to OTHER ways to slow the game down. And those ways are WAY LESS FUN for survivors then the perks are. I guarantee it.
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You never balance games around "the average" player.
And if you do, please tell me when they are going to nerf skull merchant, who is obviously, per the statistics, the most powerful killer to EVER EXIST in DBD HISTORY. And stop wasting their time on killers who are UNDERPOWERED (per the data) like blight. Why does blight keep getting nerfed despite him being so weak?
Oh also, when are we going to buff nurse? Obviously if we balance around average players, we need to buff the killer who has been near the bottom of the list in kill rate since probably her inception.
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Haven't we had this conversation before?
You don't balance for any specific group, you balance for everyone. If you need to weight your decisions towards any particular group - if, not when - then you weight towards the majority. This is the only effective and viable way to balance online live-service games, there are no other options that will work.
You also, and this is the fallacy you most frequently fall into, do not exclusively balance based around stats. The best example of why that's a bad idea is Nurse, who has a very low killrate due to her high skill floor and the fact that she's free so a lot of players actually give her a shot, thus increasing the sample size by a lot of players who inevitably aren't going to do very well. Does that change that Nurse is the strongest killer in the game and needed those few nerfs she got? No, but you'd miss that if you balance around stats. This is something you understand, because you brought it up.
In this case, you balance for everyone because the majority don't need these perks at all and they can be absurdly oppressive towards the top skill range. The only gaps here are weak killers (as in, characters, not players) being played at average skill ranges, but as long as they have some kind of slowdown - which they will - that's not a huge problem, just something to keep in mind.
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UPDATE.
Scott agrees again, the game is BALANCED around the killer bringing slowdown:
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Ah yes the usual fearmongering: "If you nerf x side, they will switch to playing unfun strategies!!!".
Even though it's been shown time and time again that when one side gets a meta that favors them, they keep doing the same unfun strategies all the same.
This patch, with some exceptions, is a nerf to the strongest and more annoying combos on both sides. Some perks took undeserved fire while other things might have gotten a bit overtuned, but I don't see anything immediately sounding an alarm like the previous PTB updates these couple of months. Good on BHVR.17 -
Right, so you balance for everyone EXCEPT the players who are at the top? Its ok if survivors are massively OP at the highest level so tournaments have to restrict them so heavily?
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Ah yeah, "not a top tier killer".
Forgot how they look after yet another Blight/Wesker/Nurse with 4 slowdowns
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No, you balance for everyone.
I personally do believe some things should be done to address problems at the top, but their absence from this patch doesn't mean this patch is inherently going to break the game for those players. Those at the top will still have good viable options to win their games if they're of equal skill level to their opponent, just like everyone else.
Also, to address the video you've posted twice now: My experience with watching DBD content creators - and to be fair I don't watch that many - is that they don't do a very good job of acknowledging their inherent bias when it comes to their own experiences. That might be true for Scott because he plays the game for a living very regularly, but it's definitely not true for the vast majority of the playerbase, no matter how any individual player might feel.
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Yeah, and again, if you keep nerfing these things, all you will see is MORE of the thing you are complaining about as more and more things become less viable.
2 things can be true at the same time.
3 killers in the game are a little to powerful when you stack multiple slowdowns.
32 killers are too weak unless you bring 2 slowdown perks.
Which one seems like the bigger problem to tackle? Guess we should nerf slowdowns more without addressing the 32 killers? What do you think will happen? You'll see more of the 3 killers you are complaining about.
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I post scott because he IS biased, towards survivors. If i posted tru3ta1ent you'd see the opposite end of the bias.
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Pack it up folks, a DBD streamer agrees with them, we lost the argument.
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That's not the bias I'm referring to, I laid that out pretty clearly.
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Yeah basically. The correct changes would be as you said, completely gut regression perks and build some into the base kit. Your idea is a good one.
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You are being intentionally obtuse.
I pointed out a problem, and the response EVERY TIME, as you can see in this thread is "but average players" etc.
And i'm pointing out that a streamer here, who is clearly biased towards survivor players as you can see if you are even somewhat familiar with them, even says that you MUST take slowdown perks if you aren't playing a top tier killer and when you play the other 30+ killers, you MUST take slowdown perks.
If i posted tru3ta1ent you'd get a different bias.
I'm just pointing out that someone who often sees things from the survivor point of view is also able to see this which shows that there is probably a problem here.
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how is Scott jund biased toward survivor players?
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What is your solution to this if you don't mind me asking? I watched the video and he points out that someone is going to lose regardless of how they balance this. If they do nothing then survivors have to deal with high tier killers stacking four strong slowdown perks which he CLEARLY acknowledges as being completely unfair and borderline unwinnable for survivors. On the other hand nerfing regression will make the weakest killers even weaker as everyone has pointed out. How would you personally make this fair for everyone?
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The solution is buffing the lower performing killers.
They're already doing it this patch with Bubba, Slinger, last patch with numerous killers, Billy rework that made him among the top tier ones, they've been doing it for months now so it looks to me like par for the course.3 -
Guy we got a proffesor in Dead By Daylight academic subject
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Slugging, tunneling etc. And good luck playing killer in high MMR without enough slowdown. Game will go from bad to worse idk how they don't understand that.
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Ok. How do I stop losing time with literally everything I do? There must be something all these killers have overlooked the past 8 years. Even if we were to assume, that you wouldn't need to walk to the next gen, then that's still 17 seconds wasted just by hooking someone.
That means, the survivors get 17 charges for free, right? Actually no. Because it's 17 charges x 3 = 51 charges. From a total of 450 charges. That means, just for the hooking someone, the killer already loses ~11.1% of the gens. Now what happens, when they actually have to traverse the map, find survivors and chase them before hooking? That only makes it worse.
Please tell me, how do I speed up hooking? How do I stop the other 3 survivors from progressing while I am busy just going through the steps to get 8.3% of my objective done? After I had already to put in the bulk of the work by finding and chasing that survivor.
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Scott Jund tends to be a really good litmus test for the side people tend to argue in favor of.
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Literally nerf every strategy that is not "fair lul" from regression to slugging , so we can have 150 seconds gen time basekit
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Watch a few videos and comments scott jund makes, now do the same for tru3ta1ent. If there was a spectrum, you'd probably see this:
survivor sided middle killer sided |———————————————————————||———————————————————————| On that spectrum, i'd put several content creators around this: |———————————————————————||———————————————————————| ayrun/hens scott coconut otz tru3ta1entEDIT: i should also note this isn't to throw shade at any of these creators, i watch most of them. And this is obviously just an opinion of mine and could be up for debate, but i don't think its really relevant to this thread. I'm simply stating that there is a spectrum of bias and this is where, based on the content i have seen, that each of these content creators falls in, in my opinion.
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You're not wasting that time, you're spending it. After you're done, you get a hook, and that not only progresses your core objective, it opens up the window to generate more value.
A hook is something survivors must react to. Not straight away, necessarily, but at some point they are going to have to come for the save. So, you've got two survivors occupied there; one on the hook, one coming for the save. If you can get into a chase before the save happens (mobility helps here, but the main thing you're looking for is info - time invested into finding someone is actually wasted here), that's a third. While you're hooking, yes, three survivors can progress generators freely. Once you've finished hooking, that changes dramatically.
They're going to get some generator repair done. Stopping that isn't your job. Your job - aside from killing them, ultimately - is to slow it down and force multiple survivors at once to do something else. Who you're playing and what perks you bring will have an effect on how many options you have here, but downing and hooking are the big available ones by default, as well as injuries to a lesser extent.
In short, the answer to how you stop losing time with everything you do is just "macro play".
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This is only valid for chase #1, a case where tunneling is going on, or a chase that lasted for quite too long.
Otherwise, the survivors' activities are as follows:
1 on the hook
1 going for the rescue
1 in chase
1 remaining to do gens.
This is generally how killers win games. And this is why tunneling is so effective when done quickly enough, 3v1 there's no one that can do gens, there always has to be someone who rescues a hooked survivor and someone to keep the killer's attention while the rescue is happening.3 -
Even that is kind of a bad idea, if you think about it.
Sure, if there was a cure-all for slugging and regression, then you have a new problem: Slow gameplay. Survivors having to sit still for 150 seconds and tap a skill check every so often, and killers having to locate a survivor and go through every pallet loop/window loop before a down (speaking at a decent MMR point of view) and be punished for doing anything except immediately going for hooks since regression would be pointless. (In this hypothetical scenario I should add)
Not to mention it doesn't fix high mobility top tier killers being far more viable in this scenario than killers like Freddy or Trapper. In reality, DBD is a difficult game to balance because of killer power differences.
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formatting sucks, but you get the idea.
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I'm not gonna care, ultimately there is only just the choice between extremely fast chase, ridiculous amount of gen regression, or extremely long base generator time
I suppose this game is basically flawed from baseline, if anything the concept of hooks and generators are flawed
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Exactly my line of thinking.
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And chase #1 is precisely the problem.
Basically, the way a standard game works is as follows:
- Start the game, all the survivors spread out and hop on gens
- Killer starts a chase with 1 survivor 3 are sitting on gens
Now, does the killer get a down before 2-3 gens are done? If not, the survivors are probably going to win. If so, the killer is probably going to win.
This is a problem and should not be how the game works. The reality is, at high levels, when survivors have a whole map available to them, that first chase can take ages, especially when you factor in god pallets. Based on times, do you realize that all it takes is for someone to predrop (yes predrop) 2 god pallets and then run to a corner of the map and stand there? That is enough time for those 3 gens to get done.
The problem is in "solo queue" survivors are allergic to gens for some reason.
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Me running up to the 2 slugs with MFT + WGLF:
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Good luck finding them with knockout.
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Correction: Me running up to the 2 slugs with MFT, WGLF and Open-Handed.
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They gotta please the average player, that’s most important.
Don’t worry, if killers start quitting again, queue times take 10+ minutes and their goal of 60%kill rate goes down, they’ll buff killers on the next anniversary! You’ll just have to wait a year.
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That actually makes me wanna make a point.
I had a match against a Wraith running knock out and ONLY going for slugs until endgame while I brought DS/Flip Flop/Unbreakable/Power Struggle in a soloQ match on RPD West Wing. His full build was Knock Out/Sloppy Butcher/Deer Stalker/Nurses Calling. We actually got a 4 escape despite this, and you can thank the indicator HUD for this.
I assume the other survivors realized this early as well, and we managed to coordinate with no communication that gens > pickups. Once Wraith was in a new chase, someone went to search for the survivor to pick up. Thanks to bleedout being so long, nobody even dropped below 20%. Meanwhile, 2 survivors ran gen progression and we managed to hit the most important gens first, the middle ones, and put us in a perfect position to reach anyone being slugged.
Once endgame hit, Wraith tried to go for hooks. Thankfully I was his target and there were still plenty of pallets for me to use.
My main point being, even with that setup, SoloQ can coordinate thanks to recent additions. My usual survivor matches with me running Hyperfocus/Streetwise/Built To Last/Deja Vu and a kitted out toolbox are usually ties or 3-4 escapes against lower tier killers and losses/1-2 escapes against high tiers even with the current gen regression builds. If that Wraith brought Surge or Eruption he may have had a better chance with that slug build, but ultimately survivors have the edge even in that scenario.
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B-but the cosmetic sales! WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE COSMETIC SALES???
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The reality is, at high levels, when survivors have a whole map
available to them, that first chase can take ages, especially when you
factor in god pallets. Based on times, do you realize that all it takes
is for someone to predrop (yes predrop) 2 god pallets and then run to a
corner of the map and stand there? That is enough time for those 3 gens
to get done.Alright you made a scenario where the first chase lasts 90 seconds, presumably with low tier killers, then I make a scenario with a high tier killer where the chase lasts 20 seconds and make an opposite conclusion to yours. What now? High tier killer against high tier survivors = good, low tier killer against high tier survivors = bad, who could've seen this conclusion coming?
The solution I think is fair and the devs seem to be implementing is cutting gen regression down because it is overly oppressive in the hands of high tier killers, while also handing out buffs to the low tier killers, which is, I repeat, happening in this same patch, and has been happening many patches this year. I don't see how this is a bad direction.
Funnily enough, since you seem to be keeping score of streamers, Otzdarva, who you rank as killer biased, thinks this is, I quote "one of the best sets of patchnotes in recent times". Food for thought about your arguments based on streamers and their biases.6 -
absolutely not. you balance for the top.
you just make it fun for the bottom.
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Because there should be more than 2 viable killers at a high level, especially when the game has 36 of them.
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What is pain res NOW? 22 seconds off a gen.
Pain res LITERALLY does not pay for itself most of the time. Now you want to nerf it even more?
I don't know where this idea came from of regression needing parity with progression, but it doesn't fly. It's an asymmetrical game. If Killers are doing too well with their regression being weaker than survivors' progression rates, then clearly, having them be on par would push the game to be extremely killer-sided.
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Its simply a statement as to how long killer actions actually takes, if you look at other posts, you'll see the main point is quite simply the game goes TOO FAST if you do not have gen defense and aren't playing nurse, which is why every game has gen defense. And the game should not be balanced around that fact, they should buff basekit gen defense and nerf all of the perks, so you'll start to see a wider variety of perks and builds.
The point is that, if you continue to make it so killers aren't even able to gain any time by hooking, then why bother hooking at all? Which is the point of this thread.
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