They just don’t get it….
If it weren’t already clear, the 700th round of gen defense nerfs makes it pretty clear: people don’t understand why killers run gen defense. The base speed of the game is nearly impossible for killer to win against good survivor groups. Nerfing these perks only further incentivizes camping and tunneling, which I guarantee will get worse after this update.
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Bestie, you got 90 seconds gen, removed gen tapping, given -5% basekit kicks on top of many minor changes, go chase survivors and don't be reliant on 2-3 perks.
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Yeah. I don't think these nerfs are going to make killers run different perks. I think people are still gonna run these perks but killers will just have to play harder.
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Chasing too much throws the game. Even when I’m Nurse and can down people pretty quick, the other survivors just hammer out the gens. This game encourages you to camp, tunnel, and choose a few gens to defend. It’s not fun, and is only getting worse with each update.
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I've never quite liked the whole "nerfing these very strong options will just incentivise camping and tunnelling" argument.
It doesn't leave any room for the nuance that comes with basekit slowdown and proper macro play. You already don't really need slowdown perks unless you're playing at the absolute highest level the main queue can offer you, and if you are there, you don't need four ultra strong slowdown perks all stacked together.
If it does lead to camping and tunnelling more, though, we can always just address those things as well, it's not like they aren't problems. Gen defence really should be de-emphasised as much as possible, any fallout that comes from that can be dealt with as it arises.
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Agree 100%
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I really don’t think there is much nuance though. This game is simple.
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Camping and tunnelling being more common is a trade off 99% of people in the game will take if it means not having to play into pain/pop every game. especially in solo que having to do 9 generators to escape is way worse than any camping or tunneling that can be done.
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Assuming that's aimed at me, apologies if it isn't.
Of course there's nuance. Even if this game is comparatively simple - which I'm not sold on, honestly - it still HAS a macro game, and you can still perform very poorly in that macro game even with relatively short chases, which will impact your chances of winning quite heavily. I'm not sure what you'd call that if not nuance, especially when it comes to discussions about slowdown perks.
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macro play in this game boils down to choosing an area of the map and playing defensively. It really isn’t that hard
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Not to sound rude, but if that's your perception of the macro game, it might explain why you need to run so much slowdown.
There's more to it than that. Spreading pressure is integral to playing killer because it's the part of the gameplay that results in slowing the match down- and note that by spreading pressure, I mean forcing multiple survivors to react to things at once. Think about the sort of basic bread-and-butter situation the killer would be trying to engineer: One survivor on the hook, one in chase, one peeling off to save. That cuts the generator efficiency down hard while it's happening, so trying to cycle that is a cornerstone of basic killer play.
That's what I mean by "macro game". Not doing that is gonna require bringing a lot more slowdown to compensate for leaving the survivors to do whatever they want.
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Finally unskilled killers will be forced to focus on improving their skills instead of relying on hand-holding broken perks.
Also they have been buffing every killer (even in this update) for a hell of a long time while shrunking and weakining every map.
If you feel these changes are unhealthy, just admit that you are bad at the game at this point.10 -
I hate this argument because it doesn't account for the FOUR survivors.
It takes 1 good survivor who knows their loops to waste a ton of time for the other 3 to hammer out up to 3 different gens. This is disregarding perks as well: Second chances, gen progression, and exhaustion perks. Against top tier killers, you may have an argument, but the general M1 killers/killers that need setup/weaker M2 killers? It's normal at a decent MMR to lose 2 gens in the first chase even if it goes well.
"Why not swap survivors if the first one is taking too long?" Because you need to know where the others are, get to them, and manage to win a chase against them in less time it'd take to down your first target. And again, you risk the next target being good at loops as well while your first target takes over their gen.
And let's not forget, Pop and Pain Res only activate on hooks. Pain Res being once per person. That regression is wasted on any gen already completed or any new gen barely touched.
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That's not the issue at all though and it's completely ignoring the existence of killers like Blight, Nurse and Mastermind. High tier killers can get away without running slow down because they're actually strong or in some cases broken enough to end matches quick enough.
On the other hand we have lower tier killers who are not strong enough. You would have to sweat and make perfect plays to pull off the same results as high tier killers without slowdown.
So the issue is killers being too weak and too strong with not much middle ground.
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OH no! You won't be able to dogwalk 99% of players simply because you equipped 4 slowdowns, how awful!
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You’re trying to explain nuance to me, while completely not understanding how higher level play works. “Spreading pressure” only works against people who are slow on gens. There’s a reason pretty much all high level killers camp and tunnel: it’s the only option. I’ve played this game for years and have tried pretty much every approach. There’s only one killer, so survivors always have more pressure on the killer. The spreading pressure tactic results in many hooks, but fewer kills.
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The reason many killers - of any skill level - camp and tunnel is because it's significantly easier, and it's significantly easier because of base-game issues that make it hard to punish.
Spreading pressure is just a cornerstone of good skilful killer play and it is enough to win games if you're at the same skill level as your opponents. It just won't be easy depending on what skill level you're playing at, and you'll probably still lose about half of your matches, which is how it's supposed to be.
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This is a 1 vs 4 game. By nature of the game, there’ll always be at least 1 people on Gens the whole time. Unless Survivors play badly, it’s impossible to “keep multiple Survivors busy at once”.
The only way to do this is to tunnel the first survivor out and make it 3v1. That way everyone is occupied and no one can do Gens. But surely Survivors hate this playstyle, isn’t it?
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I mean. Yeah. One survivor is always gonna be on gens, most likely.
The problem is that you're assuming you only get value if gen repair stops completely, but in reality the only reason you're trying to affect gen repair at all is to give yourself time to progress your objective. Generators don't matter to you, otherwise, it doesn't matter if they all get done as long as you kill at least three survivors overall - generators are not your win condition in any way shape or form, you're only trying to stop them being done because it's the survivor's win condition.
One survivor on generators is FANTASTIC for you as killer. It takes forever for one survivor to do all five generators, you've got tons of time to complete your objective there.
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It's mathematically impossible to "spread pressure" or "play fair". Survivor objectives take less than 50% of time than the killer's objective takes, unless the survivors throw. But I'm fine with the killer nerfs, I didn't need more of an excuse to camp and tunnel anyway, played the game so long I've gotten lazy.
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Only if you assume that literally stopping the objective progression of the survivor team entirely is the goal, which it isn't. It's just to slow it down enough for you to progress your objective.
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This is the issue here. If a killer KNOWINGLY lets a survivor waste a ton of their time, they threw the game. Good game sense is knowing when to cut bait and look for easy hits/downs.
These perks have been so much of a crutch that many don't understand, you don't have to chase until down. Healing has been nerfed. Resetting is ALOT harder now. Also, once 2 gens are left, it's much easier to hit, run, and injure multiple survivors, while looking for your mark. Sure, the first two gens are always going to fly, but what about those last two? How fast do they go?
Gen progression perks already got nerfd; toolboxes got nerfed; as did gen progression in general. Maps are much smaller, and half the killer roster teleports or speeds around.
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You have a case for healing, but it doesn't account for different killers and their abilities. A Nurse =/= A Trapper.
Progression definitely wasn't nerfed to that extreme though. If anything, some aspects were buffed. Deja Vu never got reverted after the regression changes, toolboxes are still extremely powerful, BNP's bonus can't be destroyed now and makes gens go back to their 80 charge, and leaving survivors injured to do gens is risky due to things like Resilience.
If you're talking a match with absolutely no gen progression, I'd understand. But even that's map dependent and killer dependent. If neither side brought anything for gen regression/progression, who would win? Killers like Freddy and Trapper definitely lose that arms race, and killers like Nurse and Blight will win.
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the killer can only chase one survivor at a time, that leaves all the others getting 3cps on gens without some kind of slowdown. Unless you're a good nurse then the average chase is ~40-60s in my experience as killer and survivor. -5s on one gen for walking all the way there and kicking it instead of starting chase with whoever was there does not offset that 40-60s time loss at all. There are killers with basekit slowdown and im sure their doing perfectly fine but most of the roster doesnt and thus needs slowdown perks.
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You’re just wrong dude. The math literally isn’t there for playing the way that you’re describing. In the past, when regression was stronger, I was able to play more for chases. That was years ago, and it’s not like my game knowledge has decreased: killer gameplay has been watered down, and regression has been nuked. As I said, I can down extremely fast, but if they have too good of a gen spread, it can be impossible to win.
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But if you’re chasing a survivor who can loop you for 3-4 gens how is that spending less time than it would take you to find and down a new target?
The issue is you as killer need to know when to give up a chase and start patrolling gens. The survivors only have one objective and that’s where they’re gonna be most of the time. Chase them off gens, hit and run until you find that weaker looper and go for them.
Having said this I do agree that if killers are gonna get gen regression nerfs they do need to increase gen times to make up for it, but we also need to acknowledge that killers need to do better at spreading their pressure, and knowing when to give up a chase.
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Now I get to slug people and stand in one area of the map for the whole match. Fun!
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I like changes on both ends, keep in mind this is a PTB.
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It's not even to that degree though. I can down a survivor after 1 pallet loop, maybe a window misplay and gens can be optimized to the point where 2 gens pop, I get a hook, and the third one pops without running Pain Res.
Regression exists as it does because progression can be optimized insanely. Deal with progression, be it survivors have other tasks that need done or nerfs to certain toolboxes, and stuff like this makes more sense.
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This might work if there is a weak link, or if the person you switch to happens to be a weak link. Your logic is flawed. Whenever I talk about balance, I am assuming that we are talking about people who know what they’re doing. If all 4 survivors know how to play, switching targets does very little. Worst case scenario for them, they take a hit and run to the strong loop that other survivors were abusing.
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All I'm calling out here is that the ONLY thing you're referencing is how fast you can down.
What about everything else? Super fast downs and only super fast downs can work against less organised opponents, but a good team is going to be able to overcome it, especially if it comes with more invested time actually finding people.
The downs would need to be REALLY fast in order to overcome basic efficiency from the survivor team, I'm talking sub ten seconds start to finish.
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Please tell me how macro-gameplay is making the difference here. I’ll walk through a typical scenario playing the way you describe. Let’s assume we’re on Azarov’s resting place (ez 3 gen map.)
- Down a survivor and hook. You know someone is on a gen on the other side of the map.
- You get to the other survivor (not until they have a significant amount of progress on the gen) and get a quick down.
- Another survivor saves the original survivor on the side of the map that is now completely undefended and gens are gaining progress.
You tell me the smarter play: staying near the original survivor while defending gens on that side, or completely abandoning the place that you know 2 survivors will be, and chasing 1 survivor in a corner of the map.
Again, the way you say to play is possible against a weak survivor group. It’s not against people who pound gens.
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You're stacking this situation heavily by putting it on Azarov's, that's a terribly designed map where you win if you 3-gen and lose if you try anything else.
Assuming a different map, hell, any of the other maps in that realm, we can start talking about things. The next thing to address is that you're also stacking the situation by assuming you have to walk all the way to the other end of the map, which may be the case, but it's a pretty bad situation for you no matter what you do.
Assuming we split the difference there and they're just a moderate walk away, yeah, going for them is much better. If you stay, the survivor you know is on generators is just gonna stick on that generator, as will their two friends until one peels away for the save. It is absolutely in your favour to occupy three survivors instead of one because we're assuming we're going against good teams here- the kind that will maximise the value they can get from you camping that hook and not interrupting their repair.
If they're pounding gens, you're gonna want to actually stop them from doing that. You have less leeway to do anything else because they're not goofing around giving you time to do the same.
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Hens could gen rush and open the gate in 2.44 min in one trial 7 months ago (search on youtube)
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Okay?
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They do lead to more tunneling and camping. When killers only have one viable option to slow down the game, they're going to take it. When you limit other slowdown like the hemorrhage/mangled nerf or good chase perks like stbfl you're tacitly steering people into forcing a 3v1 scenario because that's the only thing that works. When you make defending generators untenable they're gonna defend hooks.
Do people already do this stuff? Sure. But making it the only viable option is only going to make it more prevalent. Personally I hate that feeling of three gens popping in the first chase and realizing that my only choice is to get this survivor out of the game if I wanna have a chance to win. I want to chase other people and see the stuff they do.
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This presumes that killers DO have only one viable option to slow down the game, when the options we're talking about - slowdown perks - aren't even being taken away, let alone the other options that aren't being changed at all.
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You're absolutely right. They're not being taken away. Merely neutered.
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Ehhhh. That depends on which one we're looking at, surely.
Like, Pain Res, Deadlock, and Grim Embrace are gonna be fine, those nerfs are almost imperceptible. Pop is gonna suffer, but that's pretty much the only one that isn't still going to be top tier.
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Assuming one'd like to play all the killers he bought, do you think he could keep up against that with 4 gen regression perks? And so do you honestly think they needed a nerf?
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Azarov’s is the best example, but this is true on every map. There are always clusters of gens that are easier to defend than the rest of the map.
You occupy the other two survivors for a few seconds until the save happens. The pressure is then gone. This is especially bad if the survivor is staking out the hook and you walk away, and they instantly save. AGAIN, you would have been better off staying near the hook. That would have been two survivors not doing anything. You greatly overestimate how much pressure the killer has following an unhook: they either immediately go to gens or use fast healing perks and then hit the gens. It doesn’t do enough.2 -
No? But that's obviously not a majority of games and speaks pretty cleanly to how the tools he used - haven't watched the video, just gonna assume it's toolboxes specifically - are in need of a nerf.
And as for whether the perks needed a nerf… sooooort of? They are oppressive and obnoxious to face, especially on top tier killers. I probably would've done it differently, but I do see the thing they're trying to address.
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In this game small numbers matter a great deal. Every second counts. Deja Vu only adds 6% gen speed and is pretty good. 5% off pain res is huge. 10% off pop is crippling. All this stuff is way bigger than you're giving it credit for. There's no guarantee you get your 4 pain res procs or grim embrace tokens regardless.
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There's a difference between Azarov's actively punishing you for not 3-genning via terrible layout and other maps just having 3-gens you could defend if you wanted to.
As to everything else, you're missing that every single step of that is a time investment and it's not like you're standing still during it. If you truly can get fast downs, and I'll believe you that you can, then surely the chase you're in is gonna be close to over by the time someone's stopped repairing, run over, saved, got the heal done, and run back to their generator?
This is of course assuming that they were on generators because that's the situation you presented me. If they're not, and you know they're not, of course you'd engage whoever was lurking nearby in a chase. The ideal situation for you is to pull someone off generators to save, which means you would occupy whoever you see not on generators to force it.
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I understand that they could be annoying on a nurse, but please fix the nurse and the problematic top tiers, don't ruin the game for every other killer
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Sure, I don't disagree with that, but specifically Deadlock and Grim Embrace are definitely going to be fine. Small numbers matter a lot, but GE's nerf was two seconds.
And yeah, you can't guarantee you'd get those four tokens activated, but that's honestly why I just don't use those perks to begin with. That's going to be a factor regardless, they're still going to be very strong perks overall.
None of these perks are supposed to be things you're relying on to replace basekit slowdown from macro play. They're meant to enhance it.
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Kinda funny pop used to be 20% and it wasn't used, so they buffed it to 30% and now just nerf it back? It doesn't make any sense.
Btw I called this with 3-gen feature and I hate to be right.3 -
You already don't really need slowdown perks unless you're playing at the absolute highest level the main queue can offer you
I will rather be prepared for worst and go easy on survivors if needed than be unprepared when it gets difficult. Good perks allow me to adjust playstyle to survivors.
If I don't have neither killer, or perks to give me some room to breathe, then it comes down to playstyle.
we can always just address those things as well
This is how we got to this point and I called it.
3-gen featured nerfed most slowdown perks except those two. Killers started to use them more and they are going to get nerfed now without any new alternative.
I was confident going into late game with pop, when killers don't have that, only alternative to make it save is play against three survivors…3 -
So do that, prepare for the worst. You still have slowdown perks and other strong perks/addons so you can still absolutely prepare for the worst if you want.
I'd say that preparing for the likelihood of the matchmaker failing so hard you're matched with literally the highest possible skill players around is a little silly, but it's up to you.
As for everything else, you're assuming the 3-gen fix did nerf the other slowdown perks, which it didn't. Then you just accept killers using those "instead" when A: They were already being used a ton and B: They're not needed so killers don't have to run them at all.
Then you act like there's going to be no recourse left but to tunnel, when, y'know, there's still… everything else.
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You still have slowdown perks and other strong perks
Gen blocking perks are not good for late game.
Eruption sucks, gen kicking perks are trash (CoB, overcharge).
So there is like Surge left? Which is M1 only perk.failing so hard you're matched with literally the highest possible skill players around is a little silly,
I don't consider it a fail whenever I get those games. Mainly because I am not lobby shoping whenever I see high prestige, or clear SWF. It's quite normal for me to see good teams. I am not saying it's every other game, but 1 in 4/5 seems realistic.
They're not needed so killers don't have to run them at all.
They are not needed to win most of your games, but there are definetly games where you need it.
They were already being used a ton
But pick rate clearly increased high enough to get hammered.
Then you act like there's going to be no recourse left but to tunnel, when, y'know, there's still… everything else.
I am not saying there is no other way in most games, but I think it's going to increase, again…
Tunneling was already best way to win. This patch makes it even more true.did nerf the other slowdown perks, which it didn't
This one is really funny to me. Explain how gen kicking perks are not nerfed by it?
It's not assuming, it's logical outcome. Lower % perks become worse when you make it limited resource. Not dificult to understand.
I can block gen in three downs with Surge + Eruption. How is that not a nerf?2 -
It depends how far away I am when I get the down. Even if I’m not on the opposite end of the map, it still takes time to get back, and it’s not like survivors lose much when I do return. Kicking the gen provides laughable regression and allows them to gain distance since I’m locked in animation. They also can undo the regression in a few seconds, which AGAIN, incentivizes me to stay near the gen/area to prevent that from happening.
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