The gen defense nerfs will lead to slugging.
Comments
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Sorry, edited the post. Please see that new comment.
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I think you meant to reply to something else?
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Not much to discuss, games are vastly different, that's it.
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I'm hoping that this is actually in anticipation of some big change to be announced at the anniversary that will slow gens down some. Like the early game collapse they talked about long ago. That would at least make some of this make sense.
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Let's remember to, please, keep the discussion civil and on-topic. Thank you.
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Good changes imo and I play way more killer atm than survivor.
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plus the slug with noed :D
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I really want to thank you for bringing this up. I don't know these games and have always presumed when people said they just balance around the top that was what they did. You brought this up and so I decided to look into it.
It's a little dated, but here is a whole video where one of the former heads of Riot gives a speech to other game developers about the importance of balancing for all levels (kind of boring btw for anyone who tries to watch as its a lecture style to game creators) :
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That's what i'm hoping, but if so why haven't they mentioned it yet? Maybe save it for the live stream? If that were the case they should have said: "we are making some changes that will be revealed later and as such are tweaking these gen defense perks" Some way to give us a hint that something like that is taking place.
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You can have good regression or the unfun strats, but when you combine both, you get a problem. It's why some of the perks were changed to work less with some of the unfun strats, but that's clearly not enough.
Forums have been pretty vocal though, in that the unfun strats have to stay, which subsequently does mean that the gen regression is going to have to take a nerf in order to bring killers back in line again.
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This is the ideal outcome. There are people who are mocking the Killers will tunnel more statement but it's true. It might not be true to the degree they're implying but nerfing gen regression always leads to a few more people tunneling everytime. It's not like buffing gen regression will lead to significantly less tunneling either though.
The best solution is making it so tunneling and 4 person slugging are the least efficient strategies and then rebalancing the game after.
People say it won't be happening but why not? Dbd played without tunneling, camping and 4 person slugging is far more enjoyable than played with for most people on both sides so why not do something that will make the game better overall?
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Yeah that would make sense.
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Because you have one survivor working in your scenario not 3. One on the hook; one making the exact trek you made for the save (except slower to avoid you); one avoid you at their gen or being chased by you; and one on an actual gen. Even a team on comms would have two on gens at most.
You've been around the block enough that you (and many other killer mains) should know this.
Is this going to make it harder to go against SWF sweats? Yes. But can you honestly tell me that you're having trouble taking down soloQ groups, and SWF clowning groups.
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Seems like making the early switch to Knockout/Infectious Fright/Surge/Flex on M1 Killers was the right move
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You forget though, that the math aint mathing.
Chases are balanced around lasting 45 seconds. So lets say you have an "average" 45 second chase.
- 45 seconds
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- 10 seconds to walk to a hook
- 1.5 second hook animation
- ~11 seconds to walk from any corner of the map to the middle of the map, or from the middle to any corner
That means that one hook took you, 45 + 2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 + 11 = 73.2 seconds before you can enter another chase.
Lets ignore the fact that you probably just lost 3 gens, because the other 3 survivors were doing something, and lets just look at it being your second chase. Maybe your first chase went really well.
Well, how long does it take a survivor to get off a gen, unhook the hooked survivor, heal them to full and be back in the game? Lets see…
- ~12.5 seconds to walk to the hook (about half a map)
- 1 second unhook animation
- 1 second of "fiddleing" because the game for some reason doesn't let you heal right away.
- 16 seconds to heal
That's: 12.5 + 1 + 1 + 16 = 30.5 seconds. Now we multiply it by 2, because there were 2 survivors and thats 72 seconds.
So it took the killer 73.2 seconds to get the hook, and the survivors only 61 seconds (half that but there are 2 of them) in order to recover from that hook. MEANWHILE, while that was happening, you have 1 survivor sitting on the gen for a solid 60 seconds while one is being chased and these 2 are recovering.
By the time you get that next down, the original 2 survivors who were hooked, are already healed, and repairing a gen for about 15 seconds for a total of 30 seconds (for both of them) and that third survivor was on the gen for 60 seconds. So you again LOSE time hooking a survivor even WHEN you factor in all of that based on how chases are balanced.
Now when you factor in that first chase, survivors have to do 450 seconds of gen progress.
Even if the survivors are relatively inefficient, lets say each gen actually takes them 120 seconds, because they are inefficient, thats 600 seconds of progress. That first chase costs you 216 seconds of progress, leaving you with 384 seconds of progress left. Lets say the killer doesn't camp, and doesn't tunnel and every chase goes exactly the same. What happens? Each hook costs the killer 90 seconds of gen progress. Divide 384 by 90 what do you get? 4.2 hooks.
Even if they are REALLY inefficient, taking 50% longer per gen, thats 675 seconds of progress. So (675 - 216)/90 = 5.1 + 1 hooks.
Lets say they take TWICE as long to do a gen so 180 seconds per gen? (900 - 216)/90 = 7.6 + 1 hooks. NOW its starting to be more fair, because you still have end game, so during the game you got 8 hooks, and now endgame starts, seems reasonable to be able to get 1-2 of them for a draw. But thats STILL at taking TWICE AS LONG to complete each gen than the base. That is HELLA inefficient.
No killer, nor perk combination in the world can make the survivors spend twice as long on gens, other than a nurse who can end chases in probably half the time. What makes survivors take twice as long on gens is them being allergic to doing them for some reason in solo queue.
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Are you struggling to 4K against soloQ groups? Yes or no? Are you struggling to win against SWF friends clowning around? Yes or no?
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I rarely get those players, the majority of my games are high skill survivors who are trying to win at all costs. Almost every game has at least 2-3 players queued up, with a high number of games having a full SWF based on their name coordination and such. If i can, i also will ask them at the end of the game, and they often say they are SWFs
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Are you struggling to win?
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Heres a hot take on what Devs should do
- Nerf all of these perks harder. YES HARDER, cut them down even more. And nerf the other ones while you are at it
- BUFF the basekit gen kick to 15%
- BUFF the basekit gen regression to 200%
- Kicks are limited 3 per gen (perks like surge do not add to the gen limit)
it wont be a slugging meta even if it does WGLF will be a strong counter to slugging
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When i play nurse? No. When i play non top tier killers? Every game is a massive uphill battle to get lucky to even draw.
You probably are wasting your time going down this path. I have 3.5k hours in this game.
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HES SO RIGHT RELEASE A BIKINI ARTIST SKIN KILLER NUMBERS WILL SOAR
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If you can only "not struggle" with Nurse (pretty broken killer in the right hands) or Blight, you may be punching above your weight.
Gen regression is making your issue even worse. Because you're winning matches you should probably lose. The games you play shouldn't make you feel you have to use 3-4 specific perks. Dropping in MMR would be good for you.
They also, shouldn't be cakewalks. Which is probably the way it was prior to you getting back to back 3 and 4 man SWFs.
One side furthers their goal by 33% (4 hooks) and it undoes 20% of the other sides progress automatically-PR; gives away their position; while also locking out the other side from their goal for 44% of the base required time-GE; in addition to being locked out 22% of the base required time just for doing their goal-DL.
Surely, you can understand that stacking has gotten a tad excessive and unfun. Redoing the work already done without any interaction from the killer directly (I left POP out on purpose).
It's like the constant resets when green medkits and CoE were meta. It wasn't fun watching someone heal the damage you did in the time you stopped to swing at their prot hit soaking teammate. Adding a health state in under 8 seconds had to be removed (although, I think the nerf was a tad excessive) and understandably so.
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As a lower ability player, I have my hands full (as a survivor) even with killers that may be considered ‘average’, but in reading your post through the lens of someone who constantly comes up against cracked survivors I can understand your point of view.
Reading comments and replies, everyone makes coherent and understandable views too and it seems there is almost two or three different games within the same structure and that balancing is a total nightmare where catering to one subset (higher, low or average) of players can have a devastating effect on others.I wonder if BHVR should have a context based value for their perks where if someone reaches a certain MMR then the values change?
Easier said than done I’m sure but what do you think? Also I wonder if there should be a little change to the mechanics for different MMR stages so in effect actually making the game three different games in one.
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pain res doesnt reveal location
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Try playing trapper some time.
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This really is the problem. And when i post these things on the forum people think i don't care about the "average" player. But i'm honestly not that great as survivor. I run into the same types of things you do when i play survivor, so i know what it is like. The reality is there are different games being played here and people tend to ignore the ones they aren't playing without realizing that they are not the only target demographic.
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Well DUH.
That's already a typical tactic when one doesn't use gen defense perks.
Is that a problem?
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Yep that would be fair. You can also just chase anyone other than someone who just got off hook, which is normally 75% of the lobby. Heck, you can also watch that final 25% of the lobby do a CA in your face, and it becomes fair to target them after an unhook. All of those are variants of 'fair'.
The issue here is both sides are attempting to reduce the 'health pool' of the opposition at the same time. Gens+Gates are essentially the Killer's 'Permanent Health', and Hook Stages are essentially the Survivor's 'Permanent Health'. 'Permanent Heal' perks are in general, bad. Imagine if there was a Survivor perk to give an extra hook state every 40s you went uninjured in chase. That would be absurd, but that is the equivalent of slowdown perks.
Maps are so bad these days, I can win by bruteforcing 4 slowdown and whittling down all pallets to 0 without even killing someone before the 9th hook. We can either fix maps, or fix slowdown. Maps are getting worse and worse (and they aren't learning from their mistakes), so slowdown appears to be the less wrong avenue to target. I would love 100s basekit gens with all slowdown (regression and gen block) numbers halved, and I honestly think that would fix more problems that it would cause. Anti-AFK perks are better for the game (especially if basekitted in lesser forms), and that's what DS, BT, and UB are, reasons to play instead of AFK.
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No it won't. Slugging is already a big thing and a nerf in certain perks won't dramatically change that.
The vast majority of us are pub players, and for the vast majority of the trials these perks aren't needed! As a randomizer, I've won many trials without any gen defense perk in use. What works for me is pressure. Force multiple injuries, choose the area I want to play in, take advantage of mistakes and make survivors do anything but gens where possible.
Experience, creativity, control and knowledge are the best things I can recommend and - unless on the very rare occasion you face comp teams - it doesn't matter within reason what happens to strong perks, because most games in pubs you can win without them.
As a side, I wish the devs focus as much on the weaker perks as they do amending the stronger ones. Give the option for more choices.
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Yeah, yeah...if you nerf killer we're gonna camp, tunnel, and slug...more.
Killers already win 60% of their games....let that sink in....
Post edited by EQWashu on6 -
Hell nah. Just, no.
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I'm intrigued. Do you have the source of this concept?
I've always thought Corrupt should be basekit and that the perk would just enhance it somehow.
First chase decides games for either side is really annoying.
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They never actually gave us a concept, they had just talked about working on it but it was never talked about again.
I agree with your idea though. Current Corrupt base kit and then make the corrupt perk version be something like "Corrupt lasts until the first gen is completed".
Alternatively another route they could go is something like "repair speed is reduced by 30% until the first injure".
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He thinks the game should be balanced around bad survivor play.
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I wish I could like this post again. People here seem to just accept that you can’t balance around all levels of play, and that really isn’t true.
Decisive strike is a perfect example of this: low level players didn’t get value out of it because they don’t know tiles or looping, and this will continue to be true with the buffed version. The only net effect is that high level players will be able to abuse it even more now. That’s why you balance around high level play. If they added more pallets to maps, clueless survivors would still be downed in 15 seconds.
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Maybe do this yourself. Or explain to me how people got over a 100 winstreak on trapper (or any other killer) if its that hard to win.
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no he said the game should be balanced around the average player
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And the average player is terrible at this game.
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not true. Just because they aren’t sweaty comp players doesn’t make them terrible. This is a video game not a competition for a prize. Also Scott plays a lot of killer. He is mainly know for that.
to me at least it just seems that whoever isn’t 100% killer biased, is viewed as a survivor main or survivor biased in your eyes.3 -
I play survivor too. The vast majority of killer wins happen because of survivors not doing gens and getting downed in 15 seconds
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Movement killers go BRRR
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Love ya posts. But I want to point something out.
that's still 17 seconds wasted just by hooking someone.This is an except from a post you made on the first page of posts. But if we are at a point were hooking a survivor is a detriment, we've a problem.
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Every time killers get changes I see people claiming that some sort of unpleasant behaviour will now increase. I never see it.
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At the very least, attempting to hook every downed survivor doesn't feel worth these days, and that's not even taking the gen regression perk nerfs into consideration. It's felt that way since BGP 200% and FTP+ BU got introduced. DS and the ultimate weapon changes played a part in contributing to this opinion too.
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Love ya posts.
Thanks.
I agree that we have a problem. And it's only going to get worse the more we move away from slowdown by hooking.
I don't know how long you've played the game but your account was made in 2022, so I assume you remember the second chance meta on survivors. The good thing about that meta was that the overall match time was longer than it is now as both sides tried to stop their opponent from progressing instead of progressing faster. That has changed though.
Killers have very limited means to progress faster (which is good because that would make the survivor role incredibly boring as most time is spent chasing), so the meta is still slowdown. But with this nerf, I predict, that many will not be able to keep up with the pace of the game because the killer loses time with pretty much everything they do. We all know what happens when a killer tries to play more efficient and with hooks becoming less rewarding and more slugging perks, I think @Reinami is correct, that slugging will become more prevalent.
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Ah ok, it sounded to me that you wanted to not have good gen regression and also not have the unfun strats so that's where my position came from. I agree that having both at once is probably a bit much. That depends on what we consider "good" regression.
But they're also nerfing Grim Embrace and Pain Res, both of which encourage not tunneling and camping. So if anything I think we're going backwards on encouraging spreading the pressure. Both of these things were/are weaker than just tunneling someone out early, so of course they weren't "enough", they weren't even equal. Especially when you can tunnel and still use Pop at full power since it doesn't care.
Tbf I don't think you can really win with the community. If the killers camp and tunnel it's "unfun". Making gens take longer, regression or otherwise, is "boring". Having super fast chase times to match gen speeds is also disliked. Top 3 killers that can compete without those strats are disliked.
It seems like no matter what the players are unhappy if the killers are able to keep up. There's no tradeoff they'll take 🤷♂️
It all feels very "have you cake and eat it too".Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
On the other hand, someone 'predicting' that people will complain about slugging is like saying 'it'll rain again some day'.
Like, sure it'll probably be complained about because it sucks, but not because anything like this changed.
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But they're also nerfing Grim Embrace and Pain Res, both of which encourage not tunneling and camping. So if anything I think we're going backwards on encouraging spreading the pressure.
Both of these perks do, unfortunately, also still work fine with camping/tunnelling though. If anything, I'd like to see them more specifically tailored to these issues, maybe having them scale up with every unique hook, to make the first weaker, but each subsequent more rewarding. Although I'm still not sure that'd work overall.
It's so frustrating that they reverted the wrong half of the Ruin nerf. 200% regression was adequately strong for a hex, and having it automatically destroy itself upon a survivor getting killed was the perfect way to sever its link to tunnelling. But instead BHVR decided to keep it both too weak, and compatible with tunnelling. Baffling choice.
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Pain Res "works" just at a really reduced level. Which is where Pop comes in to cover that part up. At least if we mean actual tunneling and not just "I got chased too soon after I got unhooked".
Grim could probably use a range requirement increase to actually promote not camping.
Ruin at 200% was fine on certain killers, idk if I'd say strong enough to make up for purposefully leaving all 4 survivors alive and still being a Hex. Especially on killers it already wasn't great on. But it'd be better that way than what we have now for sure.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Do you also believe that skull merchant is the most overpowered killer in DBDs history? And that nurse is one of the worst killers? Because the stats you cite also say those 2 facts as well.
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