Should Ruin Be Reverted Back to 200%?

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DwightDwigt
DwightDwigt Member Posts: 68
edited May 15 in Feedback and Suggestions

The version that was killed during the implementation/creation of the gen-kick meta was the perfect perk.

-It punished camping because the Killer needed to move around and chase Survivors off gens to get any value, making It possibly the healthiest gen-regression perk in the game's history. (Additionally, Killers who aren't camping are less likely to tunnel.)

-Even if Ruin was up/active, by itself or via Undying, Survivors could repair gens through it.

-At 200% regression, it provided a potentially-powerful effect, which made sense since it was tied to a vulnerable/breakable totem. So, it had the potential to provide a significant benefit for the Killer, but unlike any other major gen-regression perks, Survivors also had the potential to counter it for the duration of the match by cleansing the totem (s).

Post edited by Rizzo on

Comments

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266
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    The buff should be 150% or even 200% but disable when a survivor dies.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,644
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    Imo make it 125% but bring back the deactivation on death, that never should’ve been removed.

    One thing that kinda sucks about Ruin now is you miss out on the opportunity to get the instant -5% since you can’t kick the gen. So with that in mind I think a slight regression rate increase is warranted, but nothing more.

  • Yharwick
    Yharwick Member Posts: 521
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    I'd say 150% is probably fair maybe 125% to be safe but it is a hex perk that can be cleansed so it should be on the strong side.

  • JeanGreyarea
    JeanGreyarea Member Posts: 498
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    150%

  • ays12151
    ays12151 Member Posts: 607
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    130-150% and it would be completely fine

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,395
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    I'd take it. Though, I'll be honest, I don't want the Ruin + Undying meta to return. We're already pretty close to the old survivor meta again. Let's not do the same with the killer meta.

    I would like to see more variety on both sides. For this to happen however we need nerfs (mostly restrictions) to some of the current meta perks and buffs to underused perks as well as reworks for some unhealthy perks.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,376
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    Ruin does not punish camping. it rewards camping. you hook someone with a gen with 50% progress and ruin eats the gen. It also rewards very defensive play-styles usually centered around defending the totem.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
    edited May 12
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    200% was completely fine. They only nerfed it because it was popular, not because it was too strong. Add the stipulation that it turns itself off if anyone dies or even that it doesn't work while close to a hooked survivor.

  • MoNosEmpire
    MoNosEmpire Member Posts: 649
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    no

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,376
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    I think if they buff base regression to 150%, then all these perk ruin, oppression and surge will become so much relevant in the meta.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
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    I mean I would rather go that base increase route as well, I just don't know if it will happen.

  • Marioneo
    Marioneo Member Posts: 756
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    200% is the sweet spot 150% is to little while 300% was way to much

  • Marioneo
    Marioneo Member Posts: 756
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    Survivor main spotted lets bring back COB and overcharge 300% meta and show how fair 200% was

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 1,871
    edited May 12
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    Ruin does not punish camping. it rewards camping

    For your scenario survivor needs to make a mistake and get downed next to gen with high progress. That's unlikely to happen, unless you are instadown killer, or bring Agitation.

    Original logic is with camping you are not forcing survivors off gens to get maximum value and let them finish it before going for save.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,376
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    I mentioned that being hooked was a mistake in another thread in regards to pop goes weasel and then someone said that being hooked is not a mistake.

    Otz at one point explains original undying+Ruin in Tru3 vs Otz #1 discussion in regards to ruin enabling camping. Tru3 thought that ruin would enable killer to go away from the hook and otz argued that ruin empowered camping. I do not remember exact conversion.

  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 1,862
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    200% and ban the lery offering

  • PogbertChamperson
    PogbertChamperson Member Posts: 137
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    why not have it work like overcharge? It could start at 100% regression and it goes to 200% over 30 seconds. 200% ruin was honestly fine after they nerfed undying, but before they released pain resonance and pentimento. Maybe as a means of future-proofing the perk you could have gens that are affected by hex: ruin unaffected by other regression events? For example you couldn't apply surge or pain resonance to a gen while hex: ruin is still up.

    Though I don't really want to buff other regression perks or add new good ones until they add a measure that diminishes the returns of regression when stacked. Idk if they'd ever add an exhaustion type status for killer that could help with stacking regression perks. It would allow bhvr to make new good regression perks and buff weaker ones since they wouldn't have to worry about it being used in conjunction with other regression perks.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,428
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    I've said this for about a year and a half now, go ahead and make ruin 500%.

    It requires the killer to actually apply map pressure or it does nothing, so for a depressingly large number of people the perk would still give zero value.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 1,871
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    Being downed is not a mistake, it's expected outcome, location may be the issue. That's a big difference.

    If you get downed against M1 killer next to the basement, or gen with high progress, that's a mistake. There is reason why running into corner is often considered optimal play…

    Otz at one point explains original undying+Ruin in Tru3 vs Otz

    I have seen this video and don't remember this part. I know they talked about undying + ruin, which was cleansing lottery, but not really in context of camping.

    From my understanding, I can get more value from pressuring survivors and making them actually leave gens.

    Camping doesn't achieve that, that is fully in control of survivors. They pick who will go for save, which is unlikely to be person with high progressed gen.

  • Mr_K
    Mr_K Member Posts: 9,132
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    Yes, so by this time next year we can ruin ruin and buff kick perks instead.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,376
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    when all survivors are alive and you hook someone. going after another chase means that 1 person is on hook and and 1person is being chased. I am not going to count the person walking to the hook because walking for survivor is extremely efficient compare to killer(Killer walking to hook someone is always negative compare 1/4 survivor walking to unhook). Let just say 2 survivor are off-gens. The person who is off the hook will rapidly be saved in most cases.

    With ruin, If 1 person is on a hook and a gen is regressing with ruin, Ruin acts like 1.5 survivors off gens because you end up trading progression with another gen. The thing is, when someone is on hook, eventually, someone has to get off gen. This increases the value of ruin to 2 people off gen because two generator are simultaneously regressing. there is also bunch of butterfly effects that occur. One of which is that saving survivor off hook when a killer is camping often makes survivor have to take many health-state injuries. In order to recover your health-states, you need to heal but healing when gen are incomplete vs hex:run = more regression.

    Without ruin, camping is less rewarding because the gen only regresses at 0.25 rate which is 1.25. there is no automatic regress either so there is even less rewards for camping. that is in summary to why hex:ruin felt out of meta. It just wasn't good enough for camping. Legion can kinda of use ruin because he can injure everyone, then camp which forces survivors to heal and than there is that add-on called fuming tape which you can like spam vaulting to get old ruin. Long while back, it was strong because ruin was 200% and fuming tape makes 300% alongside unnerfed version of thanotophobia which applied -15%-20% which stacked on top of ruin. If you do heal, then ruin regress quickly but if you don't then thano slows gens down on top of free hook trades and so on. anyhow that is talking about some old dbd stuff.

    modern day dbd camping is like deadlock+grim embrace where you can clock the deadlock from triggering and then as you hook the survivor, you can like stand like 9 meter away from the hook to avoid camping system and then as deadlock ends, leave the hook slightly to extend the 30 second deadlock into 42 second. I am aware that this is being weakened to 25+10 for 35 seconds. Ruin/Undying replaced by gen-blocking.

  • tyantlmumagjiaonuha
    tyantlmumagjiaonuha Member Posts: 529
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    I don't think a perk that could exit within 60 seconds of the start of a match is very valuable to bring on its own, even if it is somewhat enhanced. protect it with a perk like Undying, or until a certain time from the start or one Gen is completed, as is the rule used in many tournaments.Totem cannot be destroyed, as is the case in many tournaments.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 1,871
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     I am not going to count the person walking to the hook

    but then

    The thing is, when someone is on hook, eventually, someone has to get off gen.

    This doesn't make sense.

    I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

    In both situation it is 1 survivor on hook and 1 survivor unhooking, right? But if you are going to chase someone that is +1 survivor in which you have chance to select who it is and option of survivors going for rescue is 1 of 2 now, where is a chance both need to work on gen.

    If you camp, any survivor can come for rescue, it's up to survivors. So where did 2 gens regression come from? They are free to finish whatever gen they have and then go for rescue.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,376
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    in case 1, survivor get an unhook and potencial gen progression because they do not need to heal. they're not threatened. they can also heal because your chasing someone else, though you can return the hook manually.

    in case 2, the killer is threatening second-hook stages/deaths, is getting free injuries, potencial slugs and all of that is being compounded by hex:ruin which is also eating gen progress during all that from the killer camping the gen near hook + all survivors needing to get off gens to save teammate.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,545
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    So IMO… Base regression can be changed so Ruin itself isn't effected

    Right now base Gen kicks do 5% instant regression then -.25 charges per second

    But if regression were tuned to be -.50 charges but no more instant regression that would be nice…. so instead of relying on a perk

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 1,871
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    You ignore the fact that I am actively chasing another survivor in case 1, who was most likely working on gen. Which means I am either getting health state/ down, or at least pallets out of the way.

    If I am not, I can go back and either slug, or tunnel. Doesn't matter. Basically my worst case scenario is to go back into your "case 2".

    in case 2, survivors have 60 seconds to finish any gen and that survivor run for rescue, except few specific killers, solo rescue is not risky to do.

    all survivors needing to get off gens to save teammate

    except they don't. There is plently of time to finish any gen with high progress and then go for save.
    If you just camp and don't leave as gen, there is no reason to lose any progress on generator unless you managed to hook survivor next to that gen, which is a mistake from that survivor, as I said.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,780
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    It needs to be 200% regression at minimum, and no deactivation on a survivor death. I don't think most people understand that 200% regression is half the speed of survivor progression (400%). They just see a big number and go, "Ah! Too strong!" 🤷‍♀️

  • Yippiekiyah
    Yippiekiyah Member Posts: 469
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    No despite the fact that ruin is healthy for the game killer's need to move away from strong regression perks and base kit features added.

  • Ohyakno
    Ohyakno Member Posts: 718
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    I can't be the only person that hated going on a totem adventure before even thinking about starting to do gens, right?

  • LeFennecFox
    LeFennecFox Member Posts: 1,232
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    200% would be insanely oppressive to deal with for remotely strong killers. 150% would probably make it viable for the avg killer.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,663
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    It seems we're the odd ones here.

    As long as it doesn't self destruct on a survivor's death we're ok with 150-200% (no more though). After the Erpuption/Brine/Overcharge/Pain res meta, our discord server almost unanimously agreed the tinkerer/ruin/undying was better as it could at least be stopped relatively easy.

  • Cali88
    Cali88 Member Posts: 21
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    100/125/150% sounds good

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,428
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    You do realize that gens don't progress at all, in any way, unless a survivor is actively working on it?

    In fact, there's no perk, ability, item, add-on, or mechanic that adds gen progress without a survivor actively touching a gen.

    Ruin is literally 'set and forget' and continues to regress automatically without any further attention from the killer. You don't even have to kick the gen.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,780
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    That's why when you get pushed off a gen, you come back to it. Either you get off hook and go back to it, or the killer chased 1 of the 2 of you off the gen, and whoever didn't get chased taps it/starts working on it again when the killer quickly leaves. The killer can't just stand at a gen and watch it regress, because they need to be occupied with chasing.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,780
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    It would be oppressive to a day 1 player who'd lose anyway. 200% is half the speed of a survivors progression, 400%. You can also destroy the perk since it's a hex, so the regression could be 800% and it would be fine. You're just seeing big numbers and panicking because you don't understand what they mean in context.

  • caligraph
    caligraph Member Posts: 359
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    Yeah it really should. If devour hope lets you mori people regardless of hooks and is balanced as a hex then 200% ruin would absolutely be fair. Plus its not like the survivors cant just go break the totems.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,780
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    Right back at you, 🤡. Gen speed and movement speed are 2 different things. Background Player goes 50% faster than any other exhaustion perk, and with the "nerfed" version, you'll be normal exhaustion perk speed but can use it every 20 seconds. Haven't seen a game's community cheer on power creep this hard since Hearthstone.

  • SkeletalElite
    SkeletalElite Member Posts: 2,684
    edited May 17
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    Ruin at 200% was fine in a game where the only other good slowdown perk was pop which couldn't be used until ruin was cleansed. Ruin started to become problematic when pain res existed because it worked at the same time, especially with tinkerer's old state. While the power combo of Ruin + Tink wouldn't exist anymore, there are plenty of other strong viable slowdowns that work just fine alongside ruin that make buffing it a bad idea.

    200% ruin would instantly make ruin undying pain res meta again, with the 4th slot being either grim, deadlock, pentimento, or surveillance which despite nerfs are all still plenty strong. Even though gen blocking prevents regression it forces survivors to return the instant it comes undone essentially meaning survivors have no time to get any value out of the gen block time, indirectly making those gen blocks more valuable.

  • ChainsLogic
    ChainsLogic Member Posts: 100
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    No, the nerf of deactivating after a person dies was too much, but they removed it recently, so the perk's all good now.