Bloodlust needs a rework

I don’t think BL1 is necessarily an indicator of poor killer play. BL2 and 3 could be nerfed though

Not necessarily but either map design or what I said before...

Sure but they are still getting rewarded and the survivor is getting hit despite not making any mistakes, just because the killer got a haste effect.

I don't know about that, I don't think you should get hits without deserving them in that manner...

No offense but if the other side is better they should come out on top, and if they are that much better that you cannot manage to get a single hit without Bloodlust then that is a major skill issue on the killer side or the most busted map ever, but neither of those are a good recent to get free hits.

Most tiles/maps are mostly fine, with a few exceptions... Hawkins infinite... But the goal should be to create balanced loops anyway and not have a band aid fix like Bloodlust.

I also want hatch gone, but that is off topic anyway.

The 1v4 aspect does not really change anything, as the skill gap needs to be really huge for you to not get a single hit without Bloodlust... So you won't win either of those aspects of the match.

On a side note for hatch... From a matchmaking aspect hatch is a horrible idea, because you can dodge the minus mmr by getting it, despite it relying mostly on luck... And that among other factors harms the viability of the already very blurry mmr system in general.

AAs a quick thought I would say maybe killers that are relying on basic m1 gameplay to get a down in a loop. So all the rush killer like Blight or wesker are out und all range killers are out.

But it's a difficult question indeedI thought maybe trapper could use bl since all he can do is shutting down a loop and then the surv is w keying to the next.

But then I thought about legion for example. They can vault pallets and are fast but they can't down you and have nothing but m1 gameplayand then I thought about plague She is not fast and can't down with her power so she is pur m1 so she should get bl but what is when someone uses the last fountain and she gets her empowered m2? Then she would not qualify for bl.

Argh it's really not easy.... that's why I'm no dev ^^

I mean Trapper or Legion at best, all the other m1 killers have something that is either stealth like Myers or Ghostface or slowdown like Freddy or Clown... Which makes it a mechanic that only becomes relevant on like 3% of killers xD

Main reason Bloodlust needs to stay in the game is due to the effectiveness of hold W against any non dash/non ranged killer.

On someone like Blight, Huntress, Nurse, Spirit or Hillbilly bloodlust doesn't make a lot of sense…. but on a number of weaker killers it defintely does. If survivors play the loop, fair enough, but most don't even bother, and will make 1 loop on a strong pallet and then use lithe as the killer breaks it to vault the window to run to Narnia. This shouldn't be able to waste upwards of 20-30s of the killers time before they even catch up to try again.

Not to mention there are several low tiles or tiles with checkspots where it is almost impossible for an m1 killer with no/weak anti-loop powers like Sadako, Legion, Myers, Pig or Trapper to win a mind game over the survivor unless they make a mistake. The only way to get them to throw the pallet a lot of the time is run after them and disrespect the pallet completely until they are finally forced to throw the thing and hope another strong tile isn't nearby. Someone like Pig or Trapper for example (who do have anti-loop) can't use it 50% of the time, cause if they try, it takes too long and just loses to hold W. It's not a "skill gap" if the only way the killer wins the exchange is if the survivor screws up their looping path.

Unless we want to explore some kind of mechanic to prevent holding W from tile to tile, maybe something like a fatigue mechanic where spritning while over a certain distance from the killer results in the survivor slowing down and needing to catch their breath, bloodlust can't be removed. I'm sure you'd agree, Bloodlust seems much less annoying than something like survivor fatigue.

To clean up some terms, hold W to my mind is vaulting or throwing pallets, and instead of sticking to the loop, holding W away from the tile while the killer is on the other side. Commonly you see players running tile to tile when you play lower tier killers, and is more common whether you break the pallet or not (examples where this usually happens are Trapper, Pig, Sadako or Dredge). Against bad players even when they use their resources as poorly as they can, they can still waste in the region of 20+s of my time doing this before I even catch up to them at another tile. I have not infrequetly gotten to blood lust 1 and sometimes 2 just following after them in a straight line after a single Lithe vault.

Against good players, they will obviously greed pallets, maximise the time I spend chasing them, and on a number of tiles with proper use of check spots, it is almost impossible to mind game them. I can double back, turn my red light, pause in place, use all kinds of tricks, and if survivors know check spots and don't makew a silly mistake, you simply can't catch them without running in straight line and forcing them to block windows or throw the God pallet and weaken the tile. Can I go for someone else? Sure,a nd a lot of the time I should (and do). Identifying when you're gonna take way too long on this strong tile is a skill in of itself, but on killers that lack anti-loop, there needs to be a fallback mechanic for scenarios where there is literally nothing else more productive that you can do with your time other than chasing this survivor.

Essentially my argument in favour of BloodLust 1 is: any killer with an anti-loop element of their power, is always better trying to use their power than trying to use bloodlust. Any killer that doesn't have any real anti-loop usually has other elements of their kit that aids them in the trial outside loops… but there are scenarios where building bloodlust is not even really their fault and isn't actively sabotaging their own chances of winning the game for the sake of a kill. Ultimately ending chases efficiently is the main distinction of a strong vs. a weak killer, and this basic mechanic provides a weak chase killer something to fall back on to at least try and break a super strong tile, or cut off a survivor who is just running tile to tile.

That said… BL3 is BS and should aboslutely be removed, and BL2 should be the new maximum with maybe another 5 seconds to trigger it added.

I mean if you cannot get hits against good players on those tiles because they play really well, no matter what you do, why do you think you should get bloodlust and then the hit? They did everything perfect, and they still get hit because you get a random speed burst.

This is not an unreasonable argument, but the same goes the other way for the killer. The killer is in a 4vs1, which means the killer playing perfectly shouild be always winning a 1vs1 eventually correct? So by the same token, a killer and a survivor player both playing perfectly should result in the killer always winning in a timely manner. This is what happens with the likes of Nurse, Blight, Spirit, etc… these killers win in a timely manner, and almost never build bloodlust because they have powers that do the job better.

If playing a killer that doesn't have a tool to close down a survivor however, even played perfectly, they can't down in an efficient time frame. For these killers why should it be the only way to land a hit be the result of a survivor making a mistake? Well to give that argument a fair shake… if the killer and survivor does everything perfectly at a loop and the killer still can't land a hit because of the way the killer works, then that killer needs to make their strength up in other ways right? This is the arugment with Pig, or Sadako, their slowdown is what affords the weakness.

However other killers, like Myers, are great examples of why this is a problem, he is artificially held up by the fact he can immediately murder someone with Tombstone Piece. He has no slowdown in his kit, he has no map traversal, he has no real anti loop beyond a slightly faster vault and extended lunge. This means without bloodlust, Myers would have to be even more obnoxious with his ability to kill players to remain even remotely relevant.

If you take away bloodlust, what is your advice to a Myers who is trying to loop at low tiles like Wrecker's Yard, or is pursuing a survivor holding W tile to tile with WoO? There isn't really anything he can do about it… there is no skill he can employ to solve this problem…. and while killers like him are in the game, blood lust is still needed.

In an ideal world we wouldn't need it all, all killers would be equally strong… but the fact is blood lust dminishes the difference between higher tier and lower tier killers… and regardless of the diversity of the cast… sadly chase pwoer and map traversal tends to be the decider on what makes a killer good or not… so unless we homogenise all killers to be great at chase, we'll always have killers who are gonna fall short, and blkood lust patches that dvide in a rather limited capacity.

I don't think Bloodlust should exist at all, but at least bloodlust 2 and 3 need to go, they only help the most stubborn type of player that really does not want to kick the pallet no matter the cost.

All that said however it does seem like in a broad way we both agree, just with different motivations.

And your counter is a random speed boost when the killer can't manage to get a hit in time...

My point the entire time was that bloodlust is a stupid mechanic because it allows players to be stubborn and force hits at tiles where they are supposed to kick the pallet and move on or instead of outplaying the tile with a mindgame or something they just gain bloodlust and force the hit. I really don't see how a. it will help you much at w keying away, considering you need to be in chase for bloodlust to apply, considering w keying usually means you just pre-run as soon as you spot the killer b. if you are supposed to get hit between tiles then you would get hit without bloodlust, not with a random speedboost kicking in…

Your overstatement is really not helping your argument, depending on the map you might be in quite the deadzone and to reach the next tile it might be fully necessary for the killer to kick the pallet. Overall it just messes with the balance of a tile, as it shifts the strenght towards the killer after a certain time.

I don't really see how you shifted the argument in any way shape or form. Also what do you mean by easy advantage? How am I asking for an advantage when I want equal grounds and not random speed boost?