Weaker m1 killers being unfairly affected by the 8 regression limit
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You cant be serious. Kicking a gen isn't trying to win by attrition. You can't ask killers to not kick gens. It's literally a game mechanic, and if killers don't kick them, those gens get done even faster than they already are. Gens fly.
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You bring up a fair point. This mechanic alone has made me go from playing daily to playing once every week or two. It's that much kf and experience ruining situation.
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Not necessarily kicking gens. I use surge a lot because as an m1 killer, I'm not allowed time to stop and kick gens.
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First of all, my bad my "no one" was not designating you sorry about the misunderstanding XD, I was literally saying that us (people that dislike how the current iteration of the Anti-3-gen system affects gameplay) are not having an issue with it purely because of the fact that Killers might lose because of it, we are having an issue with it because it affects normal gameplay for weaker/M1 Killers far more than the powerhouses even without the intent to create an endless stalemate.
Presence and pressure is good and all, and it's true that if a Survivor is constantly on hook then gens slow down (unless the Survivors would rather complete 1-2 gens before going for a save, depending on perks/items it's easily doable depending on how the game is going) but weaker/M1 Killers can't apply that kind of map-wide pressure reliably, especially if the Survivors are good. If they turn the game into a 3v1 early then sure though.
Again, if the regression limit was meant as a tool then the devs would have marketed it as such. However it was specifically said that it was made to stop endless 3-gen stalemates without affecting normal gameplay. The mechanic as it is now shifts the meta, playstyles, and makes certain non-regression perks just as affected by the mechanic as regression perks, so it is doing way more than it should.
In the video, the Knight kicks the gen because it's around 50% and (from his POV) it's somehow getting out-repaired every time he comes back. What Killer in their right mind would go to the other side of the map if there's not only a vital gen at dangerously high progress but they also know there's a Survivor nearby that keeps stopping the gen from regressing & making a bit of progress everytime they turn around and will finish it given the chance? What's supposed to be the play here? The Knight had Nowhere To Hide (which offers no slowdown if a chase can't be started thanks to its effect) but Distortion voided it which meant he was still between a rock and a hard place. He wasn't playing Attrition Knight (somebody was hooked during that whole debacle, also the video was far too short to be able to say that was the situation) he was defending a central gen, arguably the most important gen in R.P.D. which shouldn't be punished further. The Killer's "punishement" is already his lack of map pressure due to being stuck defending the middle gen. Why should Killers be forced to concede a gen if Survivors are persistent and good enough? If it's in endgame then sure (games shouldn't be endless anyway) but it shouldn't be a thing to keep in mind at all times.
How does a kick limit not indirectly nerfs non-regression kick perks greatly? They might give value but offer no extra slowdown on their own, if the effect fails to offer value (NTW doesn't reveal anyone, Trail of Torment gets canceled before a surprise attack can be used, the Killer fails to capitalize on Dragon's Grip effect etc.) then it's a wasted kick out of 8.
I don't care about endless games being gone, it's a good and healthy thing, all we're saying is that it should only be a concern lategame in order to not affect normal gameplay.
Side-note: the exploit that Survivors could use to forever deny kicks was patched a while ago, now the 5% needed to stop regression is a fixed value that doesn't reset if Survivors let go (this was due to people being able to have near-infinite Wiretap and deny Pop, I think Ayrun made a video on it).
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Kicking a gen isn't trying to win by attrition, but kicking a gen while an unhooked and chaseable Survivor's location is known most certainly is. Kicking a gen when there is no perk value to be gained is trying to win by attrition. Kicking a gen while no one is on hook is trying to win by attrition. Its fine to win through attrition, but it should be done through offense (pallets) not defense (meaningless gen kicks).
What I am saying is taking the mathematically inferior option shouldn't help the player, and should harm them. Attempting hook Kobes is also an option, and I'm not asking Survivors to not attempt Kobes, but I do think Survivors attempting Kobes should lose because they forced themselves into 2nd stage. It is the same foolish behavior done by Survivors (Kobes) and Killers (wasted kicks), and when that side does it, they should lose or at least hurt their chances of winning.
P1: Yeah no prob, I was being a bit jokey to diffuse the tension.
P2: While normally I am not a fan of tunneling, I am a fan of meeting sweat with sweat. If the Survivors 'genb4fren', or prioritize gens before altruism (heals and unhooks), then I very much think Killers should sweat back and tunnel the person the Survivors killed by not unhooking in 1st stage. I only don't like how the victim of the countersweat isn't the perpetrator of the sweat, but you gotta do what you gotta do. As far as 'reliably applying pressure' I don't quite agree with, but that depends on the matchmaking more than anything. If I run into the clock squad when I bring the build for casual SWF or serious soloq, I'm not gunna have a good time. Since the game keeps pushing people to sweat due to MMR, that is what I blame for M1/weaker Killers from not being able to enjoy the game. I had far more enjoyment 2-hook tangoing at red ranks (back during rank based matchmaking), than I ever did after MMR.
P3: I don't necessarily think the devs thought of the regression limit as a tool, but I do think the players should. It helps the player prioritize better decision making IMO. That's why I keep making the gen kick/pallet comparison, as both are the respective sides' limited resource, and the other side can weaponize that limit against them. A foolish Surv will predrop 12 pallets and screw over their team, just as a foolish Killer can kick every non-regressing gen. The main difference is the Killer is responsible for the mistake with wasted regression, or only 25% of the Survivor team is with wasted pallets.
P4: In the Knight example the 1st event isn't shown, but likely below half since no hooks for strong regression was used. The 2nd event is at about 33% with no hooks. The 3rd is about 45%, and still under 50%. This 3rd event is the only one I can defend, as someone was on hook, and it was high enough to justify a minion kick. Personally I think he should have patrolled the guy out in the hall, as it would provide the same gen prevention, without contributing to his regression limit. Plus he wasted the Assassin on that, as opposed to the Jailor or big boy. The 4th is in pursuit of the Survivors (and none on hook), and like I said before, the gen kick gave the Survs 12s of extra chase time because of that. The Knight is too busy playing defense when he should be playing offense. Like I said in the above reply's 2nd paragraph, he is punished for making the mathematically inferior play. Just like a Survivor would for attempting Kobes. Should a Survivor just get 3 Kobes without sacrificing 20s of hook time per attempt? Its the same overarching concept, of taking a bad option, and being punished for it. Also the key thing here is that the Killer is attempting to pre-defend the 3 gen by kicking 1 gen that much. That is attrition Knight. That is the system working as intended.
P5: I don't doubt the regression limit nerfs gen kick perks indirectly, and for Eruption I could be persuaded for the proc to not count towards the limit as the kick already did it. The issue is that it forces the Killer to use their brain in actually assessing the value of what they stand to gain. I love Trail of Torment on Myers, because no one expects the T3 without a TR. But if I don't know where the Survivors are, then I shouldn't waste a kick in the first place, with or without the regression limit in place. Because of the regression limit, smart Killers will learn quicker and not take the inferior option as much.
P6: That's the thing, I don't think the argument stands that it does affect normal gameplay. I haven't had it happen to me once as Killer, but I play a more offensive and heavy stalk styled Ghosty. I haven't played my favorite skillcheck Freddy build in a while, but I'm sure that would actually be impacted by the change. Same with slowdown on my Clown (only Pop and/or PR), Myers (only Thana/Penti/Plaything), Legion (Thana and/or PR), and other M1 Killers I like playing. I refuse to kick if I don't have a perk or a Surv on hook, and that means I am safe. I think it is merely a matter of unlearning old unhelpful behaviors.
Side-note: Ahh, I never tried it myself and didn't see it in the patch notes, but I didn't look too deep either.
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Your definition of normal gameplay is skewed though. You're saying kicking gens without perks is abnormal. That pretty much makes your definition of what is normal absolutely voided out. It's literally a game mechanic for any killer to participate in. That's like saying kicking pallets is abnormal when there are survivors to chase - it's a key basekit mechanic of the game, and they even bumped it to 5% to try (but failed) to make it more relevant for killers to use.
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I don't think this is a problem, and I'll explain why. First, we'll look at two true statements I'm using as the basis for my claim- these are not the claim itself, they're just the baseline.
1: Your job as killer is not to defend gens. They are not your objective, and while stalling out gens is a tool you can use, it is not your bread-and-butter for slowing down generators either- that would be spreading pressure and dragging multiple survivors off generators at once.
2: This system exists to combat excessive gen stall. That became necessary because of 3-gen matches that stretched out for an hour due to killers not committing to chases, etcetera, but the mechanism that those matches utilised was gen stall. The system, by design, exists to limit how much any gen can be stalled.
So, those two statements lead to my conclusion:
If you're noticing that you're getting gens blocked in the course of your regular play, you should take that as an indication that you're focusing too much on attacking generators. Stop kicking gens randomly between chases, definitely stop ignoring nearby survivors in favour of kicking generators, and start honing your killer fundamentals to slow down the game without even needing to interact with generators at all for 90% of any given match.
As an aside, I don't think it matters if there's a game where all the survivors are congregating at one generator and you block it with Surge, because that's eight downs and presumably eight hooks gained before that generator is actually finished. Maybe this is just me, but I genuinely do not care if the only false positives in this system kick in when I've already won a match, that's a pretty benign ""flaw"" to exist in a system like this.
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I'm not saying kicking gens without perks is abnormal, I'm saying it is foolish (without someone on hook). I shouldn't expect Kobes to save every Survivor's chance of victory, just as reckless gen kicks shouldn't save every Killer's chance of victory. Survivors as a team can lose because a singular teammate is weaker than the Killer. When the Killer is the weakest player in the match, it should track that they should lose from their mistakes. Making poor decisions consistently, makes someone a weaker player, and they should continue if they are having fun, or stop making those mistakes if they wish to win/improve.
It would be more accurate to describe my position on normal gameplay as: "the Killer should always seek to provide pressure on the Survivors", and kicking gens (without a hooked Surv or perk value) to give a visible Survivor 12 extra seconds in chase is never providing that pressure. Some Killers operate on investments, so what may seem to not be short term pressure may still be long term pressure (hit and run, Ghosty 99's, gathering their power's resource, etc.). (Looking back at the quote on the patch notes, they said "This can lead to very long games and frustration." [bold mine], so the part you take issue with was likely to target [Survivor] frustration as well.)
I never argued against kicking pallets, and if anything, my statements have been in favor of it as a means to whittle down the Survivor's resources for victory. At the same time, if I am kicking an edge map pallet from the outside, I am making a mistake as Killer. I should instead kick from the inside of the map, to lessen the distance the Survivor gets, as well as limit their options.
As far as the 2.5->5%, I think they did that to encourage more healthy usage of the now limited resource of gen kicks. As I see it, they probably felt 16 2.5% gen kicks max on a single gen was happening, so they halved the number and doubled the regression to maintain parity. This feels like BHVR is actually trying to train Killers to be more effective at Killing, and getting spat in the face for it.
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Ah, so you're saying peek optimal gameplay with no foolishness or mistakes is normal gameplay. Okay, well, I'm going to have to disagree with you here, but I suppose that's one point of view. For me, normal gameplay absolutely includes sometimes doing suboptimal plays, for example your situation where you said kicking a gen when someone isn't on hook is foolish. I still say that's normal gameplay because BHVR specifically said that camping 3 gens from the beginning of the match without progressing the objective with the intent on dragging out the match as long as possible is what is NOT normal gameplay. That means normal gameplay would be trying to play with the intent on advancing the objective (without cheating, of course).
If playing perfectly with no mistakes or foolishness is your "normal gameplay", you should start streaming. You'd be famous overnight.
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Do you not understand that there is nuance here? There is a difference between "make no mistakes" and "mistakes should be punishable". If you want to claim that your opponents are all inhuman machines that make no mistakes, then yeah I guess your point would be valid. At the same time shouldn't you be happy you got to the highest MMR and proved yourself to be in the top echelon? I think everyone is human, capable of error, and errors can be capitalized on by an intelligent opposition. That means you only need to make fewer mistakes than your enemies, kinda like the "I don't need to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun you" joke. That's how I won most of my matches, by forcing a critical decision, and my enemies choosing... poorly. I never claimed I didn't lose, just that my losses as Killer were near strictly under my control. If I really wanted to improve I would record and watch over every loss, but I don't care that much.
You end your paragraph agreeing with me strangely enough. "That means normal gameplay would be trying to play with the intent on advancing the objective (without cheating, of course)." Killing Survivors is the Killer's objective, doing gens is the Survivor's. In most scenarios, if a Killer ever prioritizes a basic gen kick over a known chase, they aren't advancing their goal, they are trying to slow down the Survivor's. Gen kicks are almost always worse than chasing, so I always encourage pressure/chase (even if it is setup Pressure like Blood Orb collection or 99'd stalks). Its fine to make mistakes, as people learn more from their failures than their successes, but bashing my head on a wall and refusing to use a more effective tool like a Sledgehammer doesn't mean the wall's HP should be nerfed.
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Yep, just chiming in to say it still affects normal gameplay, and blocks generators so far apart from each other that no one could ever consider them as part of a 3 gen. Hell I played a pig match with only Pain Res and a gen blocked purely because it was the middle gen and the survivors were throwing themselves on it.
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If the kick limit was introduced to prevent 3 genning, why is it active at the start of the game, and not when there’s 3 gens left? Feel like that’s a big part of what’s making it overly hurt all the kick perks in the game.
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If I had to guess, I'd assume it's an attempt at tackling the cause, not the symptom.
The problem that necessitated this system was 3-gen games that dragged on for almost an hour, but the cause of that problem was excessive gen stall. So, by tackling that root cause - excessive gen stall - you can safely avoid any weird loopholes or technicalities that allow the killer to stall a game out forever even if there isn't strictly a 3-gen just by going out of their way to kick the same gens over and over.
As an aside, anecdotally, I have not noticed this system harming kick perks. I run those perks relatively frequently, and at most I've seen the warning spikes appear, I've literally not once seen a gen actually get blocked.
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Not sure what game you're playing, but gen control and regression is directly tied to being able to kill survivors. If you just let them repair gens without trying to regress them, they'll repair them MUCH faster and escape MUCH faster. Part of killing survivors is gen management. That's quite normal in the intended gameplay design - there is even perks dedicated to it! How about that.
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What game I'm playing? Helldivers 2 because MMR is ruining the game for me, but in Dead by Daylight, I try to mess with Survivors predominantly as Killer, and mess with gens predominantly as Survivor. Plus I must be doing something right as Killer if I can win 74% of my games before the gens pop (see picture below).
That is correct, that if the Killer doesn't attempt to kill them while not kicking gens, the Survs will pop gens. If the Killer provides more pressure than the Survivors are able to keep up with, or do a gen kick where the passive regression won't be stopped early, then it will help Killer win. They may repair gens faster, but you'll also find that the Killer will kill them even faster than that. Playing ineffective gen defense may get the Killer 6 hooks by 5 popped gens, but playing effective offensive pressure will likely get the Killer 9 hooks by 5 popped gens (if the Survivors are even able to pop that final gen).
Like I said before, a basic gen kick abandoning a chase gives the Survivors 36 gen seconds at the cost of ~9 regressed gen seconds, a net 27s loss for Killer. Even with a hooked Survivor and still abandoning a chase, it only provides Survivors 12 gen seconds at the cost of that same ~9 regressed gen seconds, still a net loss now at 3s for Killer. When you can guarantee the regression will sit for an extra 12/108 realtime seconds (hook or no hook timers respectively), then the gen kick finally is worth it for Killer.
There are also perks for seeing more blood pools (Bloodhound), but I'm not sure you would agree this will carry a Killer to victory from existence alone. I would even argue that by purposely using a bad perk, it makes you lose more often. I can't recklessly use Hex: Pentimento without another totem perk and expect it to make me win, despite the massive 30% gen slowdown it provides when active. A perk being dedicated to something doesn't make it innately useful by virtue of existing.
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I see where you're going for and where your confusement is. I'm not talking about abandoning a chase to kick - that's normally a bad idea unless that gen is super important and the killer knows other survivors aren't focusing on it. Otherwise, yeah - do continue the chase. Even then though, if a killer stops to kick gens with chases, that doesn't make it a "non-normal" match. BHVR defined a non-normal match as a killer who camps at a 3 gen from the very beginning of the match without advancing the objective with the intent on prolonging the game as long as possible. THAT is what is "not normal", and they said that this 8 regression limit would not affect people playing normally (ie actually attempting to advance the objective). This clearly is NOT the case and is what a lot of us here are pointing out.
Also, for what it's worth, Helldivers is one heck of a great game. I don't blame you for playing that more than DBD, ha! Go spread that managed democracy.
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Welp, another update in which weaker/M1 Killers get no help and the "Anti-3-gen" is still untouched despite entire videos and threads dedicated to it. At that point I'd just take a statement from the devs that the current iteration of the system will never be changed or if it's still under observation and an adjustment in the future is possible.
(Side-note: rip Adrenaline since it's merely SB with a heal that doesn't work if hooked, not worth the hassle of playing with 3 perks especially in this understandable tunnelling rise, I guess the Wake up effect being gone is nice). At least de-pip is gone, it might increase people "going next" on first hook a bit but it'll stabilize.
At least DS might kinda-sorta help against tunnelling, even though it will (yet again, just like the "Anti-3-gen" system and the Mangle/Sloppy nerf) only hurt weaker/M1 Killers while making little to no difference to the powerhouses which will be able to tunnel almost like before. DS should deactivate a Killer's power for a few seconds so it's useful against all Killers.
Here's to keeping hope those threads are being seen!
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I'm thinking BHVR is just abandoning the weaker killers entirely and are going to just start focusing gameplay balance around the higher tier killers. Too many of their recent changes have severely hurt weak killers, and more changes keep coming to make them even worst. At least the twins are getting some love, I suppose.
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8 gen regression limit is fine I have to actually trigger it unless I use eruption which needs a rework or something to avoid how easily it reaches the regression limit. There are many perks that delay gens without regressing them (Corrupt, Deadlock, Grim, DMS, etc)
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Ok the latest announced update (with further nerfs to gen slowdown in the form of Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace and Deadlock all being nerfed while at the same time giving a 20% nerf to DS) is just ridiculous. Congrats to those who screamed long and loud enough: the only viable options at a higher level for weaker/M1 Killers are now even weaker.
(Also rip to Wesker, infection will barely pose any kind of threat or slowdown due to how long it takes to fill up from 0, with how many sprays there are, running out will be next to impossible since Survivors won't be pressured into curing. Guess one of the most fun yet not broken Killers needed to be toned down.)
The worst part is that it won't change the meta (except maybe lower Grim Embrace pickrate) because even with nerfs, Pop and Pain Res are STILL the best options since they use less regression events and are less likely to accidentally trigger the "Anti-3-gen" early.
With even weaker slowdown and a DS nerf, it will just make tunnelling/slugging/camping even worse than ever because how else are weaker/M1 Killers supposed to compete when climbing the ladder?
Pain Res had a maximum of 4 uses (with no guarantee to not accidentally waste a token on a gen that has barely any progress or a nearly-finished gen that gets completed anyway before you can stop it) and required fresh hooks (y'know, not tunnelling) to work.
Deadlock only ever worked on 1 gen at a time, which means that Survivors that split up (which is the better strat which is most common when climbing the MMR ladder) will be least affected by it.
Grim Embrace is getting a small nerf, but why even nerf it? It was a perk that encouraged not tunnelling and that really wasn't anything special unless brought with DMS.
I'm not sure what's the goal here, variety is just going down every updates at this point. They say that the best slowdown is a dead Survivor. Well, it's only getting more true over time.
At least remove the Anti-3-gen before there is only 1 or 2 gens left (to account for potential 4 gen setups because of bad spawns and certain Killers) because it's getting ridiculous when every ways to get more time except tunnelling someone out asap is getting nerfed/restricted, people need more viable options, not less.
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I used to play daily. I'm pretty much just giving up on DBD at this point. I have not played in almost a month, and this patch is the final nail in the coffin. The game is just broken if you want to main underdogs\m1 killers. I mean, a lot of other killers at least have a LOT of various things going for them in their kit to make up for weaker and weaker perks. M1 killers, however, don't have that luxury and seriously depend on perks. They may as well just retire m1 killers at this point. It's also frustrating how any survivor nerfs come with alternative buffs as compensation to make up for it, but killers just get straight up nerfs with no compensation.
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Yeah this tends to happen easily when going up the mmr ladder (there's even a video in this very thread showing exactly this happening), good enough players can take advantage of that with enough awareness. However it only really works against weaker/M1 Killers due to having not enough mobility/lethality to effectively be able to chase/keep Survivors away from the gen.
I see the thing they wanted to go for, and the sentiment is nice despite the method being flawed, but it only really should only kick-in when there's 1 or 2 gens left (some of the smaller maps do tend to sometimes spawn nasty 4-gen setups that stronger/area-denial Killers like Skull Merchant, Knight or Blight can still defend decently). As long as maps are small enough and spawns are weird enough to create those setups then the Anti-3-gen should perhaps account for a 4-gen possibility (especially with Killers such as Singularity or Skull Merchant that can control a vast area).
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Weaker M1 killers need TARGETTED perk and kit buffs. I am okay with reworking certain M1 Killers such as Myers, Krugger to make the game more fun for those players. But just overall perk nerfs to make M1 Killers better will not help it make great killers even worse and they get the scraps.
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Ok so, even though the perk itself was DOA (I honestly don't think I've ever seen the perk outside of adepts and Doctors using a skillcheck build, and even then it's not like it gives much value against Survivors with a kernel of experience), I recently found out (due to the new random mode) that the perk "Undone" actually takes away 2 regression events per kicks if tokens are used. Warning spikes showed up at 2 kicks and 2 kicks later the middle gen of Ormond was unkickable. Had to make sure I wasn't crazy so I confirmed in a custom with a friend afterwards.
Like, you can't make this up, a perk that's made for the specific purpose of making Survivor's mistakes cost them more (more missed skill checks=more regression) actively works against you by effectively halving your regression events. And this perk released almost at the same time as the Anti-3-gen!
The Shuffle mode, since it makes me use, and face, perks that I haven't used/faced in months, is reminding me why perk variety went down since the Anti-3-gen and only worsened with time. Literally all it would need to be perfect is to only trigger at 2 gens remaining (4-gen spawns are sadly a thing).
(Side-note: getting Boon: Illumination, Detective's Hunch and Kindred just overloads the screen with aura it's hilarious XD).
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The Ghostface video is the average Dbd player when they 4k (op let the last survivor go, but he could have gotten the 4k if he wanted to) at 1 instead of 5 gens.
The thing is with Surge if you reached 8 regression events it means in "worst" case scenario everyone is death hook and best scenario is 2 people are dead and either 1 other survivor is death hook or 2 survivors have been hooked once. So, the current 3 gen mechanic works fine.
Now Ghostface being a C tier character should get some buffs, primarily removing his straps out of view while playing him, and making a more logical reveal mechanic that would make him harder to reveal, but would make more sense on how it works for both sides.
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excuse me? I don’t agree at all in her current state she cannot camp a 3 gen like she used to so im sorry but this is irrelevant, knight can hold a 3 gen and was the original 3 gen holder. As a skull merchant main I never 3 gened EVER! I agree it was a lame way to play but she’s different now so stop hating on her because of how people chose to abuse a mechanic that was never intended by the dev’s
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Huh, really?
That sounds like a bug to me. Surely that perk should work like Pop and have the whole activation only count as one regression event? I haven't actually used it, so maybe there's a delay before the extra regression kicks in…
Should probably be changed either way, though.
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Downs don't necessarily mean hooks. There are a ton of ways to deny a killer a hook state when a survivor is downed or picked up.
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I havn't had the issue with the new 3 gen, if anything the new 5 percent on baseline kicks has given me more breathing room to run chase only builds as "weaker m1 killers". The new kick was a step in the right direction, the issue is surge/jolt, it's a trap for beginners and gets gens blocked off way too quickly, same with eruption. I feel Surge needs a CD and its amount increased again (to stop same gen being blown up for a minor amount).
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Ofc it's not guaranteed, but most of the time you'll hook the survivor just fine.
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Surge isn't a trap for beginners. It's a staple in many m1 killer builds - even among veteran and tournament level players. M1 killers don't have the time to stop to kick gens - their chases are incredibly more important than many other killers. Surge was never problematic until the 8 gen change. Also, the devs specifically removed the CD on surge, as the no CD is supposed to punish survivors for being in a poor position. Now it's completely reversed and now punishes killers.
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It is a trap, they aren't going to know when its better to go for a grab over a hit, it incurs the penatly more quickly, it's effective yes, but all the m1 killers complaining about the limit are using it, you even said so yourself.
It needs some changes to make it better to use.0 -
I mean yeah, it's a problem. I'd say the easiest fix is that surge have a CD period before it can "use up" another gen charge, so survivors out of position and get double-downed don't end up hurting the killer with the gen charges (a double down usually is a single hook).
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If killers need a boost then boost only them. Killer buffs should be limited to the killer that needs it.
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