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Killers are already upset at sabo changes
I get it, you just downed a survivor and want to hook them. But also, you can't complain about this if you want gens to slow down. Survivors currently have one objective and that's to do generators and not much else. If you want survivors to do something other than gens then it has to be worthwhile for survivors to do since they aren't doing the one thing they HAVE to do then it has to be rewarding.
In short, I'm genuinely curious. What would you rather have? Fast gens or sabotaging hooks being actually useful?
Comments
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Buffing sabo doesn't slow down gens. It buys survivors more time to do gens by negating killer's progress.
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You shouldn’t be able to save a hook for free. Current sabo basically requires you to get hit to sabo and get the save. PTB sabo you can run past the killer sack the hook and run to another hook and sabo it for free.
Not sure why we are incentivizing slugging and making it harder to hook when survivors are complaining about slugging so much.
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it’s more the sabo is a bit too fast and will likely be toned down lil.
The sabo squad meta is gonna come back in a big way with the changes. Which is not the worst thing in the world, until players start complaining about slug builds and gameplay.If it’s that easy to hook deny then slug and mori become more viable strats.
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Yeah i can.
Its simple math.
It takes a single survivor less time to sabo and deny a hook than it did for the killer to earn that hook. And that is only a single survivor. Now factor in that a killer's time is worth 4x that of a survivor's time. And if it takes 45 seconds to down a survivor (chases are balanced around lasting an average of 45 seconds btw), but only 20 seconds for a survivor to run over into position and sabo a hook, then you gave a serious problem.
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"What would you rather have? Fast gens or sabotaging hooks being actually useful?"
i think players RATHER HAVE fair counterplay! which is why ftp/buckle up combo and background player got nerf. The new alex toolbox with both sabotage addons allow survivor to take a hit, sabotage, and run off free. Go test it on the ptb if u don't believe (no DH needed). It obviously busted which isn't shocking at all. Behavior buff all the toolboxes which was pretty cool but they over buff Alex. Cap the maximum sabotage speed at 100% and I'll say the update is fantastic
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They somehow managed to buff the Commodious Toolbox, which needs a nerf and not a buff.
I wouldn't mind them buffing sabo but they should've nerfed the repair boost across all Toolboxes.
Alex's Toolbox might be busted now with 100 %, and 50 % was already extremely strong, and the Commodious (the best Toolbox) now has those 50 %.
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This is basically the problem with most of the things the devs have nerfed.
Killer whine about survivors interacting with the killer, but the only alternative is that survivor on a gen instead.
And I don't think you can actually argue that the 5 seconds it takes to go to another hook is somehow worse than having that survivor on a gen the entire chase waiting for a sabo. Because dropping a survivor and slugging to immediately chase the saboteur is ideal amounts of pressure for the killer.
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Except when you're almost to a hook, another hook isn't likely to be in range so the carried survivor will wiggle off. And if they've struggled enough, dropping to slug wouldn't work as it'd be an instant wiggle off instead.
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I'd rather survivors repair generators, than use the overpowered sabotage speeds in the PTB.
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Slugging. It's counterplay and what killers should do in that situation.
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It's actually a net neutral unless killer blows since a person has to be off gens to Sabo hooks.
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Leave the sabo speed and we'll hear your tone later when the Slug meta v Sabo meta happens or you'll complain about how many PH there are then we'll see perks like Deerstalker get nerfed somehow
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Sabo is just miserable to play against. I get it's already a part of the game but when I play killer I hate playing against it. Either you walk to another nearby hook (which makes the sabo useless) or you slug the survivor and chase the saboteur.
Personally I just don't think it should be a thing, but they're obviously not gonna remove it, so in that case it should remain 'not that great' so few people try to do it.
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I will slug, you will complain, I won't care. You will bleed out on the ground, you will deserve it
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Alrighty “meta” is the wrong term to use. But sabo squads were a big thing and more common than folks likely remember.
It wasn’t the end of the world but it was largely maligned. Also it was a tool for the teams not focused gens but rather just dragging out the game and getting in the killers face.
Now again not the end of the world but when a killer does that with 3 gen or slugging it’s apparently toxic, when a sabo squad does it it’s not? It’s a tedium design that is perfectly fine but tedium designs are often maligned and complained about.
While the concept of a sabo squad is fine gameplay wise the current speed of the sabo will likely need some toning down.
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I mean this feels like an fast gens AND easy sabos scenario. Its not either or, thats the issiue.
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if Scamper was considered Free for Chucky New Sabo is Free for Survivors
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That’s really the only issue.
I’m already thinking up some strong sabo builds to try out and go for a supportive hook denial role in game.
Which, and I state this again whole heartedly, just like 3-gen, slugging, flash saves and any other unconventional build not based around gens or chases is perfectly fine to play.
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Pro tip for the upcoming meta among killers: Deer Stalker is not actually that good. The power of slugging is that it saves you time, so you don't need to camp bodies and instead should seek new prey to apply pressure, and even if you need to go back to one of the slugs, you will remember general location of it and they won't be able to crawl far under Knockout anyway. Not to mention you will definitely see the pick-upers running to them from a mile away. So here you are, just freed you a perk slot in the upcoming meta build!
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same can be Saied about regression perks i don't see the issue
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It just feels overtuned tbh, and currently not nearly enough of a risk or commitment for the potential reward it provides of halting the killer from progressing their objective. We can argue over whether or not this is bias, but you should expect to hear opinions you don't agree with.
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yep! deer stalker definitely not the answer. Agitation and star struck could be decent against the new sabo
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I just feel bad for all the M1 killers constantly getting L's with these updates and to those who don't even receive buffs to compensate.
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Spend ~40-60 seconds downing someone for a player to speed to a hook insta sabo it then go back to their gen seems like a fair trade. You now don't get your pr/pop and can't deny the first gen pops.
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I mean won't hangmans trick, iron grasp and agitation become more valuable?
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alex toolbox with double speed is not balanced, you take a hit and you have time to break a hook and get away without taking a hit
this cannot go live
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Saboing was in the perfect balance for both sides and Devs decided to make it Free for Survivors
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this is already possible with dead hard. it used to be default sabo back when dead hard was an iframe attack. Now dead hard got nerfed, so they just added it back in a similar form. Back when dead hard was omnipresent in every single match, sabo still wasn't use and alex toolbox hasn't changed since then.
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Something I've not seen mentioned so far with all this is is map balance. Some maps have atrocious hook spawns, and sometimes it's impossible for Killers to hook Survivors in some places even without any being sabotaged.
And of course this change will affect weaker killers far more than strong ones. Wiggle off from a Nurse or a Blight? You get maybe 5 seconds before they just down you again. Wiggle off from a Trapper or Myers? He might never catch you again.
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I absolutely agree with this take and it feels like a lot of survivor-leaning players either forget or ignore the killer power nuances and map design hiccups. Same can be said for why a lot of killers feel the need to run multiple slowdowns, regressions, tunnel and proxy patrol hooks just to have a chance against sub-optimal to optimized survivors. The sabo buffs are just going to effect lower tiered and M1 killers and maybe be an annoyance to the higher tiers at best.
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Meh it could be annoying but it's not like Agitation isn't already commonly run with Pain Res.
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"You cant complain about this if you want Generators to slow down."
They buffed the sabotage speed of the toolboxes, while also not changing the repair speed from toolboxes. It's not like we are having to trade our repair speed to gain the sabotage speed, this is just a direct buff with literally no downside whatsoever.
As someone who plays both sides, I think Generator speeds and regression just need a nerf across the board; the sabotage change does not do either, it just makes already strong items even stronger.
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Dead hard is only situationally active, and it requires a fair amount of timing. Alex toolbox +sabo speed addons, has zero timing, and zero perk requirements.
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Survivors need to realise this a bad buff across both sides of the game.
Slugging is already a problem, all this serves to do is increase the rate in which it occurs
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there is no timing. you get hit, sabo and mash E. even current dead hard can do this but it is limited two times per use. alex toolbox has limited charges. I don't think you'll see sabo. only 0 hook challenge swf use this.
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You are completely ignoring the fact that survivors can sabo AND repair generators, the sabo buffs will only create frustration on both sides. Killer will be annoyed that they can't hook and so have to slug, and survivors will get annoyed that they are being slugged. It will be the most miserable experience for any person who doesn't enjoy resorting to slugging.
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More like save squads. 1 or 2 people on a team with Background Player and a flashlight/toolbox, and the killer can't pick up without risking losing a down for free. Now they're buffing it, through increased sabo speed, and (what I consider) a buffed Background Player (usable every 20 seconds). It really doesn't matter to me if it's more or less efficient than all survivors being glued to gens, because of the bully factor. Survivors can screw around, nearly throw the game multiple times by giving free hits and downs just to save someone, failing flashlight saves, failing sabos, and still they're winning, because they're objective takes minutes less to do than the killer hooking people. So the killer doesn't want to hook people anymore, and will just start slugging. Yeah, there's the threat of Unbreakable, but if they don't have it then that's a definitive win for killer, which is rare indeed.
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I don't care if dead hard can do this. That is an extra perk, that is only situationally active. Alex toolbox + speed addons is active 100% of the game, and doesn't require any perks. And it doesn't matter if the toolbox has limited charges, because it can still sabo multiple hooks without any sort of recharging.
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I believe the purple sabo toolbox is not getting buffed and will still be the fastest for sabotaging, am I right? If that's the case, this won't increase the potential strenght for sabotaging, but will make good sabotaging more common, since you won't need a very rare toolbox to sabotage fast anymore. I don't think this is bad on its own, but the current state of hook spawns may make it awful from time to time. Just today I had a match in Ormond were there were only TWO hooks on one side of the map, and they were obviously pretty far away from one another. This is getting extremely common now: the distance between hooks is bigger than ever and sometimes there is only one hook in a huge area and, when it's gone, it gets impossible to hook people who get downed there. Survivor hook offerings still exist, and SWFs can bring multiple of them, which is kinda concerning, but it will certainly still be rare after the update.
Either way, if the base hook spread gets fixed, the new sabo speeds should probably be fine, or maybe they can be toned down a little bit in a near future. The sabo speeds themselves aren't a problem, the current hook spawns can be.
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Current map designs allow for 3 consecutive sabos and for the Killer to still get a hook, and that's ignoring the Killer being able to safely drop Survivors anytime prior to ~13s of being carried. This also can only be done once per match with a Purple, and just shy of twice per match with a Commodious/Event toolbox. That also means the Toolbox didn't shave ~20s of gen time, and the person was off of gens that time to prep the sabos. The math is still so far in favor of Killer for Survivors to sabo vs pump gens that it is hilarious.
People mainly complain about slugging when they don't have agency. Being in the middle of the map with the choice to recover on the spot, or crawl further from a hook, gives them the agency they need to not hate it. Its mostly sweating for the 4k when the Killer has 0 idea where the 4th is at when people complain about slugging.
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How does that work? Most killer meta perks require a hook and hooks are natural slowdown because 1 survivors is removed from the equation for a brief time and another has to come for the rescue. Sabotaging however prevents this from happening. The killer spends a lot of their time to get a down and slow the match but sabotaging leads to that time being wasted because the killer can neither progress nor activate their perks.
So the killer doesn't get the natural slowdown from a hook and their slowdown perks or aura perks (which help with macro gameplay) won't activate either. This means the match is likely going to end even faster.
Sabotaging has to be a very risky and situational mechanic. Otherwise, killers are incentivised to slug everyone. Think about it; if a killer needs 45 seconds to get end a chase and you can reliably prevent hooks, then the risk in even trying to hook a survivor is much higher than just leaving them on the ground. Eventually they'll bleed out and you also save a lot of time picking up and hooking them.
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Uhuh…. (BTW there's none beside me either. Apparently most of the hooks spawned upstairs) also you try to go to a hook. Almost get there. Then have a survivor run out infront of you, insta sabo the hook, And run away. See what happens. If you drop they wiggle out. If you don't. There's probably no hook within a few meters for you to get to. The speeds so fast a survivor can literally take the hit. Sabo mid weapon clean. And run away before the killers even finished. Also even if you do insta drop them. You probably can't pick them back up so might as well just slug them. Because unless you chase the survivor away and down them they'll just keep trying to come back to sabo the hook again.
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Alex toolbox with sabotage speed addons, will allow survivors to take a hit under a hook, then sabotage a hook AND move out of the way, before the killer can hit them a 2nd time.
That is totally a massive buff for sabotaging. And if a survivor sabotages a hook directly in front of a killer, there is usually a 0% chance the killer can carry the survivor to a different hook, because the killer already wasted time carrying a survivor all the way to a hook.
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You got a lot wrong in that comment. Sabotaging takes 6 charges a Purple tool box which sabos 50% faster has 16 charges so I can sabotage just shy of 3 times. The green commodious tool box has 32 charges so it can sabo 5 times. Add in built to last and it can sabo 10 times. Add in street wise and it can sabo 15 times. Thats without charge add ons.
Not to mention the PTB Purple tool box is going up to 100% sabo speed and the green box is going up to 50% Not only that but you can not sabo three hooks currently and the killer still end up hooking. Its two at most in 99.99% of case and 3 in nieces scenarios where the killer brought the hook offering on an indoor map.
And on live the toolbox is actually a risk where you have to take a hit to get the sabo or else the killer will just go somewhere else. On the PTB there is no risk at all. You can easily sabo a hook without the killer being able to even get close enough to swing. Then when they look for a different hook you get in front of them with breakout and get to the next hook and save it easily as well.
It needs nerfed plain and simple. Tool boxes need nerfed overall anyways. I can bring a 4 man commodious double charge add ons with all 4 running BTL and SW and clear all 5 gens in less the 5 minutes. Survivors say they can’t win but if they did that every game they would win almost every time.
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having to prestige both trapper and trickster to get past a free survivor thing is not a good game strategy
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ideally u never wanna depend on a perk to combat a strat.
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There is (99% likely) one directly above you, or the basement is 2 inches to your right (rarely both, but possible). Then there is also going to be one in the left hallway, furthest by the next corner. Then there is also going to likely be 1 or 2 in the middle courtyard. Also there are 2 dead Survivors, which means you likely killed one of them down this very hallway and their death got rid of the hook. Not panning and showing all directions just tells me that even on the most unfavorable map for Killer, they can still reach a hook safely. This requires mild gamesense, but I think that isn't a big ask.
I wasn't wrong, I was unclear with my phrasing. The purple I was referring to was the Alex's Toolbox which (currently) has 24 charges default. When I was saying 'can be done once per game' I was referring to a triple sabo, taking 18 of the 24 charges if Purple (Alex, not Engineer). Same with the 32 charge boxes and triple sabo's, just shy of 2(x3), as it would take 36 charges for 2 triple sabos. I won't double check your math on BTL+Streetwise, but the issue is if someone is spending that much to sabo, when they could have used that on pumping gens instead, then it still nets positive for Killer.
The Alex's proposed change also nerfs the charges for no good reason, especially since the Commodious is getting the same additive sabo buff without a charge nerf. I can't speak to your experiences with sabos, but I know the last session I played intending to sabo, I got 3 sabos in a single carry twice, and both times the Killer was still able to hook. I had Saboteur and Background Player (and probably BTL+Streetwise, but idr those two), and that still wasn't enough to sabo enough hooks. I probably only unshouldered a Survivor from Sabos once that entire session, and that was a skill issue on that particular Killer's part (spun in a circle for the first 5s of carrying couldn't decide where to go).
On live you are guaranteed a double hit if you attempt to sabo (mostly due to lag). If the Killer hits you during the sabo, you don't have enough time to run away after restarting and finishing the sabo the 2nd time, and I was even spamming DH (animation frequently goes out but no Endurance due to lag). I haven't played with the PTB speeds, but anything faster is going to be an improvement into making it viable instead of trolling. One of the problems was back in 6.1 they buffed the Killer hit CD from 3s to 2.7s, but they didn't drop the sabo speed equally from 3s to 2.7s. Sabo buffs are a LONG time coming. Saboteur was 2.5s with a 3s hit CD, so .5s wiggle room for lag. It now is 2.3s with a 2.7s hit CD, so .4s wiggle room for lag, or still in a nerfed state. Current Alex and proposed Commodious take 2s to sabo, with the same 2.7s hit CD, or .7s wiggle room for lag. The proposed Alex puts it at 1.5s to sabo, or finally viable with 1.2s difference of hit CD and sabo time. To be fair, once again, I haven't played the PTB with this speed, but on paper it seems fine. I have only seen the complaints come from people who think sabo is actually useful in Live, so I know their complaints aren't grounded in reality.
I used to think Toolboxes needed gen nerfs, but then I realized their charges don't work the way all other items do. I thought a basic Commodious gave 32s (at 1 charge/second) of 50% bonus speed, in which I agree would need a nerf. Instead however, it measures total charges completed with a 50% speed boost, which roughly works out to ~21s to put on 32 charges, or only saving ~11s. Once I found that out, I stopped thinking they need a nerf since they come 'pre-nerfed'. Sabos will always be a healthier use for toolboxes, because it forces both sides to interact. The Killer has the choice to drop or keep carrying, and the Survivor has the choice to risk a protection hit, or a down in order to get a sabo. Plus it slows down the match timer, which helps Killers more due to pallets being finite.
Using the "everyone bring sweatlord strats" is such a joke argument. Should we delete any Killer that has someone reach 500 winstreak (3k+) since they can win almost every time? Same logic. Plus most times Killers only run into 1 person doing that, which isn't nearly the problem it is complained to be.
As a partial aside, I'd take the removal of gen repairs for toolboxes if they deleted gen slowdown/regression for perks (with an exception for Corrupt Intervention since it has its own built in limitations). That way the weaker Killers can get the gen slowdown from their add-ons alone, and stronger Killers rely on their strength to end the match sooner instead.0 -
Wait, Alex Toolbox got buffed too?
And so did the add-ons. Eh.. I hadn't realized that, so I take back what I said. I think the other toolboxes definitively needed a buff for sabotaging, but Alex Toolbox was the one that was fine. Still, it might be solved with a few tweaks on release or on the next patch.
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