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Lobby Shopping vs Going Next
Comments
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So I realise that in my post I come across as very combative and dismissive, and I am challenging you quite harshly there… so I do apologise if that post did indeed rile you up…. but to try to affirm my point and be a little more civil…
You have admitted there that you shop your lobbies; each time you do this you are making the conscious decision to find an easier lobby to play against. Now maybe you only ever do it to avoid teams that look like bully squads, and maybe you don't abuse it to just find easier games and are actually quite fair and reasonable regarding the lobbies you decide to dodge. Maybe you are spot on with your conclusions each time, and correctly dodge bully squads. I can't say, cause I don't know you…. but the fact is even if YOU are someone who doesn't abuse this, you still understand that there are people who do, and that this is a problem. What if every killer did this? Wouldn't be very healthy for the game, and ultimately the pre lobby would have to be removed.
Regardless of whether you excessively abuse this or not, the fact of the matter is, you don't know for sure that you are against a bully squad, and even if they are, you would be going up against a squad that has been determined to be about your skill level. Instead of facing that squad, you have instead decided to take control of who you face yourself, and to search for an easier squad to play against.
That is not exactly something that can be called very sportsmanlike on your part. That's fine, there is no rule that says you have to be, but there is a reason why unsportsmanlike conduct is frowned upon.
Imagine if a chess player rated 2400 on chess.com constantly dodged matches and insisted on only ever playing against players ranked 2000 and below. That player would smash those players every time, so instead of respecting their high 2400 elo rating, instead they are looked down upon as someone who is only playing to dump on lower skilled players. Despite the fact they should be respected for the high rating of 2400 elo, it doesn't mean anything if the only games they play are against lower skill players.
You may well be completely on the money that this is a team that will try to bully you, but you still only truly have assumptions, and you don't even know if this lobby is better than you. Maybe they are a bully squad, who suck at being a bully squad. However instead of playing that game, you effectively wimp out of even trying, with the consequence there is a decent chance a killer lower skilled than you ends up facing that squad instead via backfill. You might say "Well, they can just dodge too", but see the aforementioned point, what if every killer does this? This becomes a bit of a problem.
Whenever I play killer myself, I practice what I'm preaching. I never dodge, because ultimately, the point is to play my best, regardless of whether I win or lose, and even in losing, I've had plenty of games that have been a lot of fun. Have I been bullied in games? Sure, it happens… but each time I did my best, and in some cases I've absolutely destroyed that bully squad.
As I say, I don't know how much you lobby dodge, but to just look at a team and conclude you're not gonna bother to even try begs the question, why are you even queuing up at all if all you want to do is beat up on players lower skill than you?
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12k hour Nurse stomping solos. What, solos can't have high mmr? How is that an example? Backfill is not as drastic as you are making it out to be.
Also to that killer dodging, the next set of survivors is going to be the same as the previous because this is SBMM not who clicked on Find Match button first. Killers that dodge are foolish.
To the point, it IS worse when ghe match already starts because there are only a few ways it will go.
- The killer feels bad and farms, which is boring on both ends.
- Other survivors DC leaving the killer playing against bots, not fun.
- Other survivors let themselves go on their next hook. Leaving other survivors that wanted to try without hope.
- Killer plays normally and gets called a tryhard in the end.
The whole experience is ruined because someone couldn't bare the thought of losing in a video game.
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How do you know? Same names? Same character? Don't say you checked profiles because most of my lobbies are cross platform. Because all four joined at once? You do know the lobby doesn't work the same as the PTP days. A killer can join a full lobby of solos.
How about those SWF teams that you don't notice until in match? Are you going to DC the moment they flashlight save or bodyblock? Stand in a corner looking up?
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How do you know they aren't memers? You're judging a book by its cover. Funny names,+4 Claudettes and P100 doesn't mean they are any better than some prestige 1 Bill
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this ^
Theres a big difference between (Skill) and (Experience) they aren't by any means the same, and I don't ever duck a P100 squad because even if they are a SWF squad, they're prestige means nothing and are typically not the best performed, i've even lost again just P3 survivors.
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Sorry, these have nothing to do with each other, at all.
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Elaborate. You stated 'I shop all I want.'
Suggesting it is reasonable to prioritize your enjoyment.
How is this different than someone going next if they get a killer they don't enjoy?
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To answer your last question: I queue up because I want to try out a Killer gameplay, test builds and tricks in a rather standard dynamic (I patrol - I chase - I down, hook and move on to check other gens or do challenges - gens get done - I get some hooks, maybe even some kills - move on to the next game), not be literally followed around by bully squads ready to sabo and flashlight stun the moment I pick up a body and then gleefuly trash me in the endgame chat. Especially when I'm learning a new Killer and of course I'm not perfect with them. When I started playing Killer, I did so to get BPs and I was fine with survivors escaping - I'm playing as the bad guy, after all. What I wasn't fine with is that a lot of people think that the Killer is their personal punching bag. They enter the game to make people miserable and no, even if I sweat the entire game to beat every single one of them, the satisfaction doesn't make up for the frustration this match caused.
Now, about "sportsmanship". I wouldn't compare any activities that hold value and actually show peoples' intellectual or physical capacity (like chess) and multiplayer games. Multiplayer games aren't about sportsmanship — they about gathering horrible little people on their horrible little ego trips and reveling in the freedom granted by anonymity. There is no sportsmanship and in the end of the day, if the community doesn't give a damn about acting decent towards each other then players have to take matters in their own hands and remove potential toxic people from their surroundings. I'm past giving people the benefit of the doubt and I'm not giving those who have all the red flags my time. Bullies crave attention — and they aren't getting anything from me.
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I don't have much faith in the players' decency to assume them to be memers. And it's working out quite well.
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One game has started, the other has not.
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i agree with your argument. both should be penalized. ruining a match that players readied up for and put their offerings and items in is a lot worse than dodging lobbies. i think there should be a slight stacking penalty for dodging lobbies and not a complete removal, because there're often moments people have to dodge such as an obvious hacker or IRL moment at the worst time. this way a game is less likely to start with AFK players who were forced to play. also it's nowhere near as impactful because queue times in dbd are not very long.
sacking yourself on hook however should give the equivalent of a dc penalty or completely removed (if devs are fine with eliminating 4% with it). while it's not technically dcing, it's done because it's the only way to get out of a game prematurely without penalty. the only people that support this premature disconnect option are the griefers themselves. why BHVR listens to griefers and not the players trying to play their game i dont understand. if the argument is that the game is designed to be casual, let killers do the same thing or remove the DC penalty altogether. but they haven't and won't because the 'casual game' arguers are hypocrites who tend to play only for simple wins and cant handle playing out a difficult match.
if you're a sad griefer, just dont queue up if you cant put up with it. there's thousands of other players out there who are. the game's not gonna die, in fact it'll be better with less trolls.
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One is related to player throwing
during a gameand the other is people trying to game the MMRbefore the game even startsThese are so vaguely related you might as well mention Meta slaving, tunneling or 4bnp comp squads. You will almost never know if a killer lobby shopped but you will almost always know a survivor threw.I know he asked you to elaborate but I thought he was joking lol. Thats on me. Regardless, one of these two is very much worse than the other. Throwing -IN- the game sucks and there's no real winner except the killer. They'll still get their 3-4k and move on, a bit unaffected. The remaining survivors.. ah who cares. Thats the gist I get from a lot of killers on here.
Lobby shopping should go away since we have killers learning the game via streamers, and we know how terrible that's been. Killers should fight the fight given by the Entity and learn to win and lose. If someone loses a game, its to the forums with pitchforks, omg! Nerf nerf nerf
Ugh.. this feels like a waste of time. Moving on.
Right. This is why lobby shopping should go. Literally. Appreciate the most apt example I could have given.
You have me curious as to what these other reasons might be. Those reasons could be the majority. When queueing up as killer, I load into the lobby, see whats there, and that's when people will decide if they are dodging or not.
The only stimulus is see in dodging a lobby is looking at the survivors and making a decision. Thats based on Prestige, items, 4 clone group, etc. Its all based on the survivors in the lobby. If I'm missing something please let me know, I really want to at least move more to the center on this lol. But I just can't logic it out.
I used to have that faith. The internet is a strange place sometimes, but a few things are static: People are real #%& when they can't be held accountable lol. Faith no more.
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Prioritizing your own fun (and perhaps sanity) for online gaming is very human.
Unfortunately in this game lobby shopping around is soooooo destructive to the matchmaking. The player is knowingly borking up the system, aware of the effects and doing it anyway. 😕
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If they just dodge because of items, prestige, ect then that's just dodging for an easy game and is entitlement. However, them dodging because it's a 4 man swf I view as just them wanting a fair and balanced game. The community at large generally agrees the game is not balanced around swf, so that would be an unfair advantage and not a balanced game. I'm not condoning dodging any lobbies and I don't do it myself, I'm just pointing out another reason people dodge other than wanting easy games or entitlement.
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It's not like the system works anyway.
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Their MMR system gets one chance at a fair-ish trial, and a single dodge (by anyone) messes it up. The longer players wait the worse it gets, as queue times get prioritized over quality, until it grabs the next available player and throws them in.
This is the primary source of all those reports of a super unbalanced steamroll, be it a newbie killer rocked by awesome survs or a veteran killer wiping the floor with low lever survs. Neither should happen, and again we are knowingly doing it to ourselves.
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If you assume everyone is a serial killer, you will certainly not be surprised when someone is.
but you will also have an unknown number of false positives.
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I'd say put like a 1 minute cooldown to lobby dodging after more than once, not like a dc penalty where it bans you after a while, just a mild punishment for those who keep doing it.
Also, lock Survivors onto their character once they're in the main lobby to eliminate last second switching.
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This doesn't sound too bad really. Last sec switching is dealt with also, so killers cant say 'Well, if we cant dodge, you can't use the W key in trial. its only fair compensation."
lol Im kidding ofc. We love our killer mains. :)
I understand this reasoning, and it makes sense lol. Im sure Im an outlier, but those games with a team that seem to just be in the right place at the right time… I dunno, its rare but its a delight when it happens. I get challenged and its usually good chats in the EGChat. Dodging would just make me feel like I didn't believe in myself or some mushy crap like that lol.
I need more KYF in customs I think. Its always 400% more fun and better energy.
Back to topic though! This line here is another reason lobby dodging should go. I would -assume- survivors killing themselves on hook immediately would go down considerably if they could also lobby dodge.
But they can't. And to quote almost every killer I've had 'discussions' with on here: 'Thats not fair!'
I'm pretty sure 'fair and balanced' is one of those 'eye of the beholder' things. Everyone has their own definition. Lobby dodging should go as well as survivor switching last sec. Imo.
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It's true that the interactions can be more enjoyable. My focus on the game is fair matches, skill expression and the better player winning because I take games competitively. To me SWF messes with this. Since the game isn't balanced for SWF I can play significantly better than them and still lose from all the unintended advantages SWF provides. It removes individual skill from the game. The better player losing I find frustrating. This is the same reason I dislike styptics, syringes, BNP's, tunneling, camping, or NOED. They also can remove skill from the game and allow a player objectively playing worse to still win the game instead of the better player. Not saying this is always the case, but many times it is.
This causes games where this side has SWF/styptics/syringes/BNP and that side is tunneling/camping/NOED ect and it leaves both sides doing/using things that remove skill and balance from the game. It's a similar reason I dislike comp as it typically dulls the game down to both sides playing in the most boring and least skill expressive way possible.
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Gotcha. I believe the mindset between us is slightly different from what we want from the game. I understand your view and tbh, its probably a lot more healthy than mine, which is I -JUST- want to be chased. I develop a series of hives and rashes whenever I stay on a gen for too long lol.
I know the holes I need to shore up in my play if I wanted to rank up and start winning. Its just hard with the state of the game for me. Not sure if this is widespread, or if it is just me.
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Yeah and that's totally understandable. Different people play games for different things. That's one of the challenges for developers. Possibly a good reason for a ranked/unranked to separate and give both players somewhere they can play for what they're looking for.
The SWF issue for the average player probably isn't much of an issue as those players are more casual and still make tons of mistakes that you being good can outdo. However once we start getting to tippy top mmr matches it starts to fall apart as you don't have much higher you can go to outplay that advantage. I know people like to hate on "I play at high mmr" but the matches do happen regularly. You watch my stream so you've seen my matches, there are more sweaty swf matches than casual ones, so they're much more common than people on the forums like to pretend. I think it's because many of them don't actually play at that mmr. I also don't see how I could be assuming incorrectly on "high mmr" either when even just on Onryo I've only lost 7 games out of 302 matches since I decided to start collecting the data. If that wouldn't get someone to high mmr idk what would.
That's why it's hard to have conversations about the issue of SWF and high mmr balance to people who don't play there because if the person doesn't play in it, then it's not going to seem like an issue at all, and at the end of the day everyone's just assuming their mmr.
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Out of curiosity, how does SWFs remove individual skill? How we see it, while SWFs can give critical information, being in one doesn't magically make survivors better if they don't know how to use it.
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They don't have to be better and know how to use something as simple as, "he left me and is heading straight for you", "his hex is in shack", "I've got deliverance just sit on the gens", "pre drop, he has Spirit Fury", ect, ect. I could go on.
Simply spoonfuls of game information that they wouldn't know otherwise. Most of it does not require skill to utilize. A lot of it however does remove skill as it takes away their need for as much situational awareness of killers coming, perks catching them off guard and not playing around something potentially being in play, macro knowledge of who should/is doing what and how they should react on that, ect.
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Fair, but to us thats just info. They still have to sneak in and break any totems called, will end up burning all the pallets by predropping and not looping atleast a little spirit fury or no, knowing not to get off gens because of deliverance is just info (which would be nice to see on hud). They do still need to pay attention as called out info can be incorrect, ex we hook someone go one direction then take the scenic route to surprise another area.
{Apologies if we maybe rambling but we're currently very bored}
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What are you talking about they can't? Survivors lobby dodge all the time...
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Oh man… are we really going here? Please tell me a survivor leaving lobby is the same as a killer. PLEASE…
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I personally don't "cherry pick" my lobbies lmao, prestige doesn't matter to me, just how they perform 🤷
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Just explain what your point is, if you have one.
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"Survivors leaving lobby is the same as killer"
Do we get a cookie now?
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Sure! If a killer comes in, and see's [Insert whatever they dislike about the lobby], then they leave for greener pastures. Its very straight forward.
If a survivor comes in, and see's [whatever it is that would make them leave] then they leave for greener pastures.
I dont see what would make a survivor leave? That second statement of mine doesn't make sense to me. I figure it only affects solo players as … why would someone dodge whilst in a SWF?
The fundamental difference is the killer dodges for a better/more favorable game. Some likely shop until they gt a lobby they can steamroll. To each their own.
Survivors can't do the same. We cant leave if we want to shop for a better/more favorable game. We would need killer info like killers get from us.
Do I think that should change? No. I like killers get info on us but not vice versa. It fits the horror theme. But to say they are the same just feels… wrong/grossly incorrect. Open to other perspectives though!
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I have a box of cookies next to me actually. I'll see if the fog will deliver! :D
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Bro I do it as Survivor every day! 😆
I'm not playing with P0 Dwight who has 5 hours on the game.
Survivors dodge teammates, not Killers.
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I probably should've been more specific on my wording. When I said removing skill I didn't mean entirely, just that it removes a lot. So while there are some skill components remaining of course, it does remove a lot of the skill. Yes most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component. So the mechanism of action doesn't really matter if the end result is the same. The info can be incorrect yes, but that's again just hoping the players are bad and make mistakes. That gets lessened the higher mmr you go, especially if you're picking your team and I don't like things balanced around just hoping my opponent plays bad. I mean I could be like yeah Nurse is fine and easy to beat if they play bad. The survivors gonna be like..okay..and what if she's not? What do I do with that? lol. They could do the scenic route but I feel like that leans more towards impractical and less realistic or reliable. Realistically they've usually got general eyes on you between one of them and then you're also wasting a lot of extra time. It can work, just not really something reliable, especially since you of course don't have eyes on all them so you don't necessarily know where they're watching you. So scenic route could actually be right where they're watching you. "Wasting/Burning up pallets" also isn't really a thing. It's only thing if you have bad teammates that don't know gen efficiency, which you probably aren't having an issue with since you picked your squad. There's in most cases enough pallets that you can have all the gens done before you run out, especially since all the pre dropping has prevented any Pops/PR/Deadmans/Grim ect from activating or them having to waste time rescuing or healing, so you've had no slow down on gens happening at all, just pure gen rush. This is why you see most really good groups pre drop everything in general, regardless of the killer perks, because they know this.
I don't mind rambling, I do it all the time on here lol
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Ahh you're talking the literal sense of being able to just… leave a lobby. Yeah, you are definitely correct. :) Everyone can and does do that.
Sweet! So you leave as solo'Q if your team mates are new. That makes sense tbh. You'd likely go into a match with a similar killer and just be able to run them forever. Not very fun imo so I understand why people would leave. Appreciate the chat, actually opened my eye a bit :)
I dont think it affects the game like when a killer does it however. Much more detrimental as backfill survivors aren't… uh… well I assume they aren't like backfill killers. A killer will stay once they believe they can win. A survivor can't get that other than checking if their teammates are new. Does this sound accurate?
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If people's argument against lobby dodging is bad because it messes with MMR. Then make MMR not backfill on dodges. Dodge a lobby, you get matched with the same criteria as the lobby you dodged. Only increase the range if the lobby cannot be filled and reset on dodges.
So how do we go about stopping DCs or afks? Seems like a different issue.
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I'd say its also a more prevalent and important issue as it wrecks games already in progress. Brainstorming!
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I have a weird double standard on the issue. I never do it on killer, but I also think it's completely necessary to make the experience enjoyable on solo survivor. It's quicker to reload the game than it is to sit through a 10 minute trial where you backfilled into a lobby with players who aren't anywhere near your skill level and can't handle a scratched mirror Myers.
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So this is harder to read on a phone so we're going to split it.
When I said removing skill I didn't mean entirely, just that it removes a lot. So while there are some skill components remaining of course, it does remove a lot of the skill. Yes most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component. So the mechanism of action doesn't really matter if the end result is the same.
Fair enough
The info can be incorrect yes, but that's again just hoping the players are bad and make mistakes. That gets lessened the higher mmr you go, especially if you're picking your team and I don't like things balanced around just hoping my opponent plays bad. I mean I could be like yeah Nurse is fine and easy to beat if they play bad. The survivors gonna be like..okay..and what if she's not? What do I do with that? lol. They could do the scenic route but I feel like that leans more towards impractical and less realistic or reliable. Realistically they've usually got general eyes on you between one of them and then you're also wasting a lot of extra time. It can work, just not really something reliable, especially since you of course don't have eyes on all them so you don't necessarily know where they're watching you.
But does not having info translate to not having skill? The point was you can make them make mistakes as killer. As long as they're human, survivors are capable of messing up which as killer we feel we need to make them do. The scenic route surprisingly works more often than not, admittedly we think it's solely due to people thinking they know everything that is going to happen and can't handle something different.
Depending on the map you may or may not be watched 24/7. Realistically someone probably has the heartbeat on them (unless undetectable) and can call that but eyes are another matter. At least to the point of all the time. As a general rule we always just assume someone is watching and play according (or not, being predictable leaves with less).
"Wasting/Burning up pallets" also isn't really a thing. It's only thing if you have bad teammates that don't know gen efficiency, which you probably aren't having an issue with since you picked your squad. There's in most cases enough pallets that you can have all the gens done before you run out, especially since all the pre dropping has prevented any Pops/PR/Deadmans/Grim ect from activating or them having to waste time rescuing or healing, so you've had no slow down on gens happening at all, just pure gen rush. This is why you see most really good groups pre drop everything in general, regardless of the killer perks, because they know this.
See, the thing is you can absolutely waste pallets even in coordinated swfs. We see people fail at this though because they rely on stacking those 4 perks mentioned. The focus only on "must get down to slowdown gen" without ever bothering to harass anyone else. Drop pallet, break pallet, go harass the next, get pallet, break pallet, repeat. Its an effective cycle on most maps that punishes predropping at the first sign of killer.
As an aside good groups and pre drop don't fit together in our books, but thats an us thing. If we missed something we apologize as again, really hard to make sure we got everything on a phone screen.
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Not having a lobby at all neatly deals with both dodging and that last second swapping nonsense as well.
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I've talked about that a few times on the forums, and surprisingly only a little pushback. I figured killers would be VERY against that lol. Removing it would solve SO many problems. BHVR couldn't mess this up…
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"But does not having info translate to not having skill? The point was
you can make them make mistakes as killer. As long as they're human,
survivors are capable of messing up which as killer we feel we need to
make them do. The scenic route surprisingly works more often than not,
admittedly we think it's solely due to people thinking they know
everything that is going to happen and can't handle something different."I'm not sure what your question has to do with what I said if you could clarify.
Yes humans can make mistakes, but picking your swf team drastically lowers that chance. Significantly lower than the rate of mistakes the game is balanced around. Just because SWF can make mistakes, doesn't detract from my core point in this all, which is that it is an extremely large unfair advantage that the game isn't balanced around. The game is balanced around solo queue and getting some teammates that will make mistakes, SWF throws that ratio of weaker links out.
Some small exceptions don't make a rule untrue in other words.
"Depending on the map you may or may not be watched 24/7. Realistically
someone probably has the heartbeat on them (unless undetectable) and can
call that but eyes are another matter. At least to the point of all the
time. As a general rule we always just assume someone is watching and
play according (or not, being predictable leaves with less)."This is why contrary to popular opinion I think indoor maps are some of the healthiest in design. This is because it puts solo and swf on a more even foot since they can't visible see you as well to keep tabs on you and pass it to teammates. This also hinders the hold w game play that is unhealthy for the game as you aren't always sure what direction they are coming from. Most outdoor maps you can see the killer coming a mile away.
"See, the thing is you can absolutely waste pallets even in coordinated
swfs. We see people fail at this though because they rely on stacking
those 4 perks mentioned. The focus only on "must get down to slowdown
gen" without ever bothering to harass anyone else. Drop pallet, break
pallet, go harass the next, get pallet, break pallet, repeat. Its an
effective cycle on most maps that punishes predropping at the first sign
of killer. "I disagree. This is only realistic on certain killers that can get fast hits with anti loop or high map mobility. This generally does not apply to m1 killers which are a large subset of the killer options.
If pre dropping isn't working then the group is generally speaking slacking on gen focus or it's one of the higher end killers. I'm generally referencing this thought process assuming a standard m1 killer as that's more often the rule than the exception.
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No lobbies would indeed solve a bunch of issues, like that swapping business, concerns over prestiges, fishing through profiles for those who can, etc. The main thing imo would be allowing the MMR system to function as intended.
But there would be side problems to deal with too, such as items. Killers wouldn't be able to bring Franklins for instance when they see two or more flashys or boxes. Things of that nature kinda need to be taken into account.
I still think it's worth exploring.
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Ah, I think we disagree finally lol. I dont see the killer/franklins issue an issue at all. Survivors will bring anti- tunnel/camping/aura perks without know if the killer is running anything of that ilk. That makes it fair. Does it make it balanced?
Well, no. At the moment, people are used to the game being the way it is. Any changes like this not only has to be good for the game, but also chew through all those who would challenge it due to 'Thats how it always has been, why change?"
I've thought about how this no lobby would actually feel, and I can only find good things on both sides. Killers would get better at the game, survivors would get better… sounds like a win for everyone.
Would hate if 'Franklins' was the nope to this. All hope would be lost for me.
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I agree something like Franklins preventing this would be absurd. Just would like to test it out.
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As someone who neither gives up nor lobby shops, I agree with others saying this is not the same thing.
Leaving before the match even started just adds a few seconds to the search and potentially messes with the MMR of the replacement. Although supposedly MMR doesn't work anyway so not sure how much that really matters.
A survivor self sacrificing mid match forces all 4 remaining players in the match to play out the rest of a predetermined outcome wasting a lot more time, everyone loses everything they brought into the match unless the killer lets them escape on purpose, everyone's potential BP gains just went down the drain, any archive players were trying is extremely likely incompletable for that match, it denies the remaining survivors at least a bot teammate, it waste all the work the survivor team already put in, killer gets an empty win, and a loss is thrust upon all the other survivors. To top it all off they avoid the DC penalty which was implemented to combat things like this in the first place.
That 1 survivor is making the decision that "Well I don't like what I see so I'm going to force everyone else on my team to lose and no one can play this match properly anymore, enjoy your massively reduced rewards, wasted items/add-ons, and empty win/loss everyone else."
If MMR is a concern we could also advocate to not have the criteria lessened just because someone left and to keep the search the same. Which again, as far as I've heard would basically still be a mismatched player.
Side note: MMR needs to be improved.
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The first is simply asking if survivors having a lack of information equates to them having skill. [He worded it wrong in the original post] You said: "most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component." Does having this info give survivors skill?
The second was more clarifying reinforcing the point, which is either being ignored or misunderstood. You as the killer need to force the survivors into making either a mistake or a lose lose situation. That said your correct in that it doesn't address your core point, again phone text is small so might have missed it. W will say SWF isn't some super monster as even they have someone who's the weakest link but that's an us opinion.
We do like our indoor maps~
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that last one.
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Do you agree that the mindsets between killers who lobby shop vs survivors who give up on hook are the same?
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"The first is simply asking if survivors having a lack of information
equates to them having skill. [He worded it wrong in the original post]
You said: "most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the
info is removing a ton of skill component." Does having this info give
survivors skill?"Well it can in a roundabout way that I already kind of explain. Having that extra and unintended information spoon fed to them removes skill component that are things such as situational awareness, memorizing spawns, perk knowledge ect. The information prevents them from having to use skill to gauge that information on their own. It could even be something as simple as listening for the flapping sound of Ghostface about to get the jump on you. That's skill is removed when your swf says, "hey buddy he's heading right for you". Skill removed.
"The second was more clarifying reinforcing the point, which is either
being ignored or misunderstood. You as the killer need to force the
survivors into making either a mistake or a lose lose situation. That
said your correct in that it doesn't address your core point, again
phone text is small so might have missed it. W will say SWF isn't some
super monster as even they have someone who's the weakest link but
that's an us opinion."It's up to the kill to set up for the survivor to make a mistake, but whether the survivor falls for it is up to them. You are reliant on the survivors making mistakes, regardless of how well you play, not the other way around. If both sides play perfectly, you lose as killer. I think you're misunderstanding my point about SWF. I am not saying they are unbeatable or they don't have flaws. IE whether they have a weak link or not is irrelevant to my point. The point is how significant of an unfair advantage it is and how the game isn't balanced for that.
Why do you keep referring to yourself as "we"? Am I talking to two different people?
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We still don't see it as skill removed as even if they know the killers heading for them, they need skill to avoid being seen by the killer, which direction theyre coming from, and yada yada. Maybe if they relied on it we'd agree but what we see from survivors and when we're in a SWF (admittedly our friends are rather more relaxed than some SWFs) its more of a bonus (supplement?) than outright replacement for skill. But at this point we think its going to end with our views different.
Maybe we're wording it poorly. We're not ignoring the point (well since the last post at least), our response was that SWFs aren't that much a significant advantage. We do not deny they are and advantage, but its not like they completely break the game (despite how hard they try or how much people complain).
"It's up to the kill to set up for the survivor to make a mistake, but whether the survivor falls for it is up to them. You are
relianton the survivors making mistakes, regardless of how well you play, not the other way around. If both sides play perfectly, you lose as killer."We got thoughts on this, but that would probably derail from either of our points.
There's 3 of us actually.
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