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"Just bring X perk"
Replace it with whatever perk ya want. For instance Is it a good balance to make a flashbang uncounterable just because the killer can bring lightborn (they removed the look at a wall counterplay)? Tunneling can still be insanely effective as a killer. But the survivor can just bring perks to bring down the tunneling value? We've partially solved this in the past before with basekit BT and Anticamp. (Yeah there was a time where we had no defenses as survivor basekit lol) but should we start going back into that trend now? What does everyone think? Should perks be a minor help to you? Or be why you can actually do things in the first place? I mean we already have partially this balance on gen defense on the killer end. The games basically balanced by at least 1 gen defense perk.
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I'm still in the belief perks should be gameplay enhancing or create new challenges, not a requirement for base game issues. I can't say I know the best way to fix every base game issue everyone has, but having to possibly purchase a license or wait out the shop for the right perk to be able to counter problems everyone faces is pretty bad.
And this goes both both roles.
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For instance Is it a good balance to make a flashbang uncounterable just because the killer can bring lightborn (they removed the look at a wall counterplay)?
Flashbang is counterable.
To make Flashbang you have to:
- Equip such perk
- Do gens to 50%
- Be nearby downed survivor and not be spotted by the killer
- Time out flashbang just right
It takes skill and shouldn't be nullified by simply looking at the wall, because why?
If killer hangs someone on PainRes I don't have skillcheck to mitigate regression or some kind of mechanic. They earned it by
- Finding survivor, chasing them
- Downing survivor,
- Bringing them to scourge hook
- Hooking them.
But the survivor can just bring perks to bring down the tunneling value?
There are no survivor perks that hard counter tunneling, DS / OTR just delays it.
We've partially solved this in the past before with basekit BT and Anticamp.
Yes, because unlike flashbang, facecamping as Bubba was uncounterable. Same as hitting someone off the hook - it relied on another survivor bringing BT and I don't have influence on what my teammates bring to the match.
The games basically balanced by at least 1 gen defense perk.
No, it doesn't, it only made you think that.
Like, be for real, killers got buff to bloodlust, increased speed to kicking pallets, gens (-5% basekit regression btw), gen tapping is no more, maps got smaller, tiles got weaker and instead of strong pallets its something like this:
This game is easier than ever before for the killers, because what survivors have left? Windows of Opportunity, to see tiles as above?
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Ironically survivor has the most uncounterable situations when you think about it. Power struggle flip flop comes to mind. I down a survivor on a pallet (because they force it by emoting) Their teammate is right there. I obviously can't pick up. So I leave them down and chase off the teammate. Pick them up. Stunned. Survivor gets unhooked and downs themselves with plot twist and DS. I pick them up. I'm stunned. I don't. They get a free full heal. Survivor loads in with no mither. Goes to hawkins portal room and purposefully goes down on the upstairs railing. They have boil over. Slug them multiple times till they die. And we're about to get another with the new sabo. I pick up a survivor. Almost make it to a hook. Teammate runs out and 1 second sabos my hook. I have to drop and the survivor starts crawling away. I lost my pressure to a survivors 1 second tap. The only non counterable thing I've seen on the killer end from you was tunneling. Which can be majorly delayed.
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if you think just bringing flashbang should allow you to get free save in somewhat entitled. The killer already had to spend time to chase and down the survivor, had to use mind games, to use the power correctly, and then you do the counter by looking at a wall and someone runs up and ruins half the time you just spent downing them. Having counter play is a key aspect of everything, some gen perks are not very counterplayable, but the same can be said for things like background player or boil over. Because one side has or had uncounterable things doesn’t make it right for the other.
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if you think just bringing flashbang should allow you to get free save in somewhat entitled.
As I wrote above:
If you bring Flashbang, do 50% of gen, craft it inside locker, then, be nearby downed survivor and timeout flashbang correctly, you deserve to save someone.
I didn't write "just Flashbang should allow to get free save!!!!!"
The killer already had to spend time to chase and down the survivor, had to use mind games, to use the power correctly
And patch after patch it's only easier and easier?
Because one side has or had uncounterable things doesn’t make it right for the other.
This game is 8 years old and there is yet no basekit resolution to camping, tunneling or revealing aura.
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While we're on the subject here's a funny meme for you and those that get it. Could just replace the last panel with "bring agi" lol.
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If you bring Flashbang, do 50% of gen, craft it inside locker, then, be
nearby downed survivor and timeout flashbang correctly, you deserve to
save someone.By that logic, killers deserve the hook since they need to start a chase, win mindgames, avoid pallet stuns, avoid bodyblocks, avoid flashlight blinds, and reach a hook that hasn't been sabotaged. Heck, even half of that amounts to the work put in to a flashbang.
And patch after patch it's only easier and easier?
Not really. Survivors who are good have adapted to loops and generators very efficiently. It's usually only a stomp when survivors give up, most of my survivor matches I lose is due to my teammates for a number of reasons. I barely can blame the killer at some points.
This game is 8 years old and there is yet no basekit resolution to camping, tunneling or revealing aura.
Auras: Lockers. They've been in the game VERY long.
Tunneling: Basekit BT was added, and heck, I also agree tunneling may need more but it's a difficult situation to balance. Sometimes the killer has to tunnel late game for pressure. Other times they have no reason to. And with perks like OTR and DS, it's becoming harder to justify a way to balance it and is why I say perks shouldn't be a band-aid on problems inherent to the game.
Camping: We have the anti-facecamp. It's gotten rid of the worst of camping and you know it. What you're mad about is patrolling hook and objectives, something most survivors are terrified of taking a hit over even if it's just an M1 killer, and even if it means the survivor on hook dies with no attempts. I can agree with insta-down powers it's a bit of a problem and could possibly need some tuning or a 'anti-exposed' mechanic or something that's reasonably balanced, but for the most part I don't see true camping anymore.
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Survivors who are good have adapted
Then it's your turn bestie
Auras: Lockers. They've been in the game VERY long.
aight lemme go to the locker just in case killer has perk
Tunneling: Basekit BT
Alexa set timer to 5 seconds
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Brother I play both roles with Sadako/Yoichi as my mains, I adapted far better than you'd think on both sides.
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I lean towards things in general should all be “reasonably” counter able base kit to at least some degree and perks should just improve on or make the countering easier. Unfortunately I would say based on the way the game is currently the devs feel differently as we have quite a few things that I wouldn’t consider reasonably counterable in the base kit and do require perks. Tunneling and gen speeds come to mind immediately. There is “some” base kit counter play here depending on skill but is it a “reasonably” good amount? Probably not.
Ideally we’d slow gens down at base and make tunneling literally impossible. That would be my ideal there.
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Geez you musta thought bbq was so busted on release before distortion came out.
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reasonably counterable effects are irrelevant and never get used. For example Jake's base-kit sabotage perk is reasonably counterable. You get hit during Sabo, the perk goes on cooldown. Who uses it? No one. It is just bad.
Nurse calling is reasonable counterable perk on default 32 TR meter killers. Don't heal in TR. Who uses Nurse calling? Do you see this perk in meta builds? Nope. If you do, it is likely on a stealth killer.
As you see, reasonable counterable is often trash/not good enough. Things need to be not counterable to gain consistent value otherwise they just suck. Look at ultimate weapon now vs ultimate weapon before. The current version is so low value on almost every killer that there is no point in playing it. Survivor has no reason to run calm spirit and killer have no reason to bring a ultimate weapon.
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I think this is just having a different definition of what we view as “reasonable”. I understand the directions you’re going and I would view those as more than reasonable, not just reasonable.
For example, flashlights have reasonable counter play but can still be good if you play it well.
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i disagree. flashlights are a terrible waste of time vs a competent killer. the only thing that makes them reasonable to use is background player or 99% sprint burst. It took 200% background player for soloq to start using the perk and a lot of the time, people didn't even use background player for flashlights, they used it for uncounterable which is pallet saves.
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Perks should never feel required on either side.
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I think they used it for significantly more than just pallet saves. I’ve still seen good killers get outplayed on flashlight saves.
Regardless, ignoring the flashlight example my other point remains. I don’t think you need zero base kit counter play to make something good. Many, many things in the game have too much base kit counter play which prevents them from being good, but I think we have different definitions of “reasonable”.
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it is hard to draw the line between how uncounterable something has to be viable. I think best example i can give is dead hard. In principal, dead hard is extremely easy perk to counter. you just wait out, hug survivor then m1 baby swing. no chance they'll react in 99.99% of cases.
there are situations with dead hard where if a survivor is just making it to the pallet, you have to swing but if you swing, the player can dead hard on reaction making the perk uncounterable. there is also certain pallets where you can slide and if killer swings, you dead hard. the thing is, survivor need setup scenario for this perk to be powerful. it is uncounterable when you use it correctly but requires skill for the player to use it correctly making it not accessible for every player
why is it important for something to be accessible? accessible things that are powerful tend to be broken in video games. Aka if everyone can use the broken thing consistently because it is easy, then it is consistently over-performing because it is too easy. now where you draw the line between too easy and too hard is subjective.
In conclusion, i think that powerful thing in dbd need to uncounterable to be relevant but subjectively powerful such that not everyone can use it or rather not everyone uses it to same degree. they need to be uncounterable within like player skill. like a good player makes uncounterable but a bad player doesn't use it well.
Unfortunately, that is not the case for 90% of stuff in dbd. a lot of stuff in dbd just holds no value or is too weak regardless of who uses it. this is largely because a lot of dbd balance is made very safe. not many new things get released to be experimentally good. they're released with lowest form of power possible. sometimes it gets buffed other times, it just stays irrelevant.
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