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Lobby Shopping vs Going Next
Comments
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Lobby shopping could be resolved by making matchmaking more strict. The game can't backfill a 50 hour killer into a 2k hour survivor lobby if the matchmaking range is much more strict.
This issue of having loose MMR for a quicker lobby wouldn't have happened if there was a better distribution of player count on both sides.
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"We still don't see it as skill removed as even if they know the killers
heading for them, they need skill to avoid being seen by the killer,
which direction theyre coming from, and yada yada. Maybe if they relied
on it we'd agree but what we see from survivors and when we're in a SWF
(admittedly our friends are rather more relaxed than some SWFs) its more
of a bonus (supplement?) than outright replacement for skill. But at
this point we think its going to end with our views different."Again, I am not saying it removes all skill, simply that it removes a lot of it. Agree to disagree though that's fine.
"Maybe we're wording it poorly. We're not ignoring the point (well since
the last post at least), our response was that SWFs aren't that much a significant advantage. We do not deny they are and advantage,
but its not like they completely break the game (despite how hard they
try or how much people complain)."We're gonna have to agree to disagree again here then. I 100% disagree with this. SWF is a massive advantage, it is not small at all. They could all run zero perks and I still think it would tilt in their favor, that's how much of an advantage I think SWF is. If you were asking me to play a match as survivor for a million dollars I would take the 4 man swf with no perks over 4 solos with perks every single time. It's not even close.
It's okay if we just disagree.
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They tried much stricter MMR about a year or so back. All the veteran players hated back to back to back sweaty matches, and hated the longer queue times for those sweaty matches. Then it was quickly changed back.
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The results being a killer dodging until they get a lobby where they will slaughter the survivors and a killer that gets slaughtered by survivors that were dodged a lot.
Survivors lobby dodging is moot because they cannot see the killer so dodging to cherry-pick teammates is way less efficient and thus most likely a lot less common then killers lobby dodging to get easier matches.
Shifting it from what exactly? My argument has remained consistent.
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Isn't the point of matchmaking to pair a group of players with similar "skill" (Escape/kills) together? If the matchmaking gives the veteran players a 50 hour Survivor occasionally, it's fine?
Long queue times means that there are not enough veteran players AKA bad player retention and not enough players capable of meeting the demand on both roles. The faster queue time measure was implemented as a quickfix back in 2022 because not much people were playing Killer at that time. If that issue still persists now, it means devs haven't done enough to fix the player count for both roles.Backfill is the side effect of allowing matchmaking to bypass MMR for the sake of faster queue times. If the faster queue time system was removed, all the "backfills" even after someone dodges the lobby would be still be of similar MMR.
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If it's legit reasons then they can eat the dc penalty. The penalty is very lax, if you have to give up to the point where you can't play because of legit reasons you really shouldn't be playing. If you have to dodge 3 times daily, I don't really seem how you can complain about the total of 20 min if even timer you get for it. It's absurd to think it's ok to freely ruin other people's game on whim in a pvp game.
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Aside from the difference that one happens in game and the other outside of the match:
The results being a killer dodging until they get a lobby where they will slaughter the survivors and a killer that gets slaughtered by survivors that were dodged a lot.
This is a not guaranteed possibility but could also lead to a semi even match depending on how much backfill craps the bed.
Survivor ditching at first hook on the other hand is a guaranteed certainty that the rest of the match will be miserable.
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So you are completely okay with the idea that DC penalty is only eaten by those who have legitimate reasons to quit? Because real quitters can just die and go next, without penalty.0 -
And the loss of everyone's add-ons, offerings, items, etc.
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I've already conceded that lobby shopping is not as directly damaging as going next on the first page.
My point still remains that both of these activities stem from the same sense of entitlement to a favorable match, and to me, having a problem with one but not the other comes across as biased to me.
Personally I don't think either should be changed, but if they are both should be removed together because no one should be able to cherry pick which games they play whether it be in or before a game.
Lobby dodging would of course have a lesser penalty because it's not as far into the commitment but nothing good comes from killers being able to look at people's profiles and outfits and pick and choose accordingly. I've also noticed survivors will do the same too.
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I also would add that League of Legends, another PVP game has implemented forced anon-mode in its competitive queues and has had lobby dodging penalties for awhile.
A vastly different game, but the problem of lobby shopping was the same there too, and the changes were successful in severely impeding the ability to lobby shop while not overcorrecting people who had legitimate reasons to leave a lobby.
There is no reason why DBD can't or shouldn't do the same.
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Survivors that have had their lobbies dodged by the Killer already have a longer queue time than normal, so their matchmaking range gets expanded to expedite matchmaking. This means you get more skilled survivors against less skilled killers more often. This causes increased burnout for newer killers, and negatively impacts the killer pool.
At least unless they've changed anything with how backfilling works.
So yes, killers that cherry-pick lobbies are damaging future games. I'm surprised they don't have a soft-ban like League does with multiple sequential lobby declines, if not simply to ward against bot spam who would cause an issue in the other direction: low MMR bot accounts causing newer survivors to go against harder killers.
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Lobbies can be formed without a killer and the killer chosen would fall within the average range of the survivors.
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I'm aware of how it works I just don't think it matters very much. The MMR is already rather loose and either you go against a worse killer which okay easy game, it's even coll, or you get a good killer which can be a learning experience of you they ever want to actually get better.
I swear all this complaining about MMR wouldn't even be a problem if people focused on getting better instead of excuse fishing for when they lose and I mean that for both sides.
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Well then, why don't we help people focus on getting better by reducing the fish in the pond.
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Ah, I don't know about the anon mode since I haven't played for a year but the leaver penalty in lobby wasn't for lobby shopping per se but because people would rage quit when their intended champion was picked by the opponent or banned.
You could call this lobby shopping but I would call it simple rage quitting.
Well, you are correct that both stem from a sense of entitlement to some degree but I would also say that a specific killer character with or without 4 gen perks doesn't mean they will play toxic and therefore not a valid reason to exit early.
(Even I, during my experiment phase, had people exiting on hook against me for one of the dumb reasons mentioned in this thread.
But in my eyes, a survivor squad with matching skins, names or group wide last second item switches are a dead giveaway for a team that's not out to play a normal match but to "interact" aka deny the killer at any given opportunity, guarantee a miserable match for the average casual killer.
I personally have never dodged lobbies or rage quit (except for one time when a swf abused one of the old fat shaming spots aka exploit) but I did use the one minute waiting time, since one survivor always not ready up till last second, to check their profiles and played the match either way.
However I am guilty of not engaging with survivor that last second switch or are overly "interaction hungry"/annoying during the match.
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I think lobby shopping is mostly happening because of bully squads. I don't see them that often, but I personally don't enjoy games with them, so I just hop into any other lobby. Obviously that isn't ideal for anyone, but neither is dealing with those bully squads.
Quitting in game is just trash, straight up. That's for everyone involved. On Survivor side and one of your teammates quits? Suddenly the team is at a massive disadvantage. On Killer side and that happens? Suddenly the game is not nearly as fun and, maybe it's just me, you just feel bad for the rest of the team. I remember one time I was playing Knight on Midwich (nothing crazy, especially with how I play), and the first two people I hooked just gave up on the spot. I let the other two out because nobody was gonna have fun at that point, but somehow we did. They gave me a couple hook states, a few gen damages, but they did the gens while I just kinda spun around for the most part.
That's really long winded, but I'm just trying to say that while hopping lobbies isn't ideal, I also get it more than just straight up quitting mid-game. Hopefully that all came across right because I'm bad at words as it is, but then plain text behind a screen can be interpreted in ways not intended.
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I'd even go so far and lock both Killers and Survivors onto their loadouts as well. Because technically you could still last second switch by using the build presets on the top right.
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Not exactly.
If you lobby dodge you do so knowing you're not really effecting anyone. It's pretty harmless.
If you give up you do so knowing you're going to cause the cascade of problems I listed before, and doing it anyways because you don't care if you screw over everyone else.
That's a pretty significant change in mindset imo.
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Your move, @WolfyWood
You have me invested in this discussion. Very curious to see it play out. :)
The mindset differences are very much there. But fundamentally, there are very different results depending if its in lobby or in game. And to me, it sounds like giving up in game is getting scrutinized a WHOLE lot more than killers dodging in lobby.
Both are pretty ######### imo. But to each their own. If killers wish to be coddled and run from the scary survivors, so be it. But to those that don't, I salute you.
To the survivors who hookicide at the slightest breeze, please go play Roblox dbd and/or mobile. Ty
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A killer dodges your lobby? Another one will fill it in 15 seconds, you won't even notice you got dodged unless you were paying attention.
A survivor gives up at the start of the match? The match is lost, and you're stuck in an unwinnable game where you'll spend your next 10-15 minutes without being able to disconnect without a penalty.
But somehow these two issues are similar?
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Franklins was an ass anyway… let his perk die
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Lobby dodging does indeed do great harm, by screwing up the matchmaking big time.
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I still see it as a player prioritizing themselves over their teammates and their opponents.
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Like I said in my first post, supposedly matchmaking does that anyway. So it's not really making a difference.
If MMR worked well then sure. But it doesn't.
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No I don't want hooks suicides to be in the game, that's what my first comment was.
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Well I'm mostly saying that from community sentiment that even with MMR the skill levels are wildly inconsistent and they go from getting stomped to doing the stomping back to back.
If we go off the assumption that matchmaking is actually pretty good outside of backfill then yeah leaving could possibly fill in someone wildly mismatched.
In which case I'd say both are a problem, just to very different degrees. Additionally with backfill it's a potential mess up while with a give up it's reasonably guaranteed.
Like a strong breeze vs a hurricane but saying "but are they both wind?". To use a more common expression, apples and oranges "but are they both fruit?"
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That's fair. In that case I would say at the very least backfill should not loosen it's criteria compared to a normal search. In addition I think a working AFK detection + removal of perkless unhook attempts suggested was a good approach to the issue.
Giving up has a much bigger fallout so it's a more serious issue and takes a much more selfish and entitled mindset to do that action compared to the other imo.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Well, maybe and maybe not. Those 'baby survivors' aren't always such babies.. A good bit of the time, in my experience, it turns out that that p1 Mikaela was just taking a break from their p100 flashlight-slinging Claudette :)
But it does allow the Killer to take at least some measure to avoid potential abuse. For instance, if I see more than two flashlights, that group can wait for some other chump to ready up.
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Seeing prestiges is one thing, it's bad enough itself. But killers being able to check profiles is even worse.
I took a long break, came back to finish the rift. I had a solo lobby with two P100s and EIGHT killers in a row dodged us, the 9th was a sweaty Billy way out of that MMR.
The whole lobby dodging is a joke and exactly as bad as giving up immediately as a surv. Not better by a single inch.
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So if I'm a killer with many thousand hours who always plays meta and to win (nothing wrong with this) and I intentionally dodge lobbies that have survivors with similar experience to me (which I can tell because I can view their steam profiles for some reason) in favor of getting survivors that are very new for an easy match is harmless?
I cannot cosign that I apologize.
Lobby dodging is a problem because there's no penalty for doing so and the killers have a ton of information before the game starts, these factors almost seem to encourage killers to lobby dodge because you will win more on average by doing so without wasting too much time.
A simple one minute penalty for leaving a lobby that goes up and caps at five minutes maximum and the removal of the ability to see names or open profiles until the end of the match would curb this issue almost fully without impeding on people who dodge for legitimate reasons.
Like I said though, if this happens then hooksuicides should go with it.
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How exactly do you "shop for new players"? Leaving and requing just resets your search. In a working MMR system it wouldn't matter, you can't "shop for new players" because you'll never get matched with them.
There's only 2 ways afaik for that to happen:
- A killer to leave a baby survivor lobby and you get backfilled in, which as per your argument that's what killers are looking for so why would they leave? That'd be a very small amount of the time in that case wouldn't it? The backfill would also have to be very aggressive and loose.
- The MMR doesn't work by default so backfill doesn't matter as the games can always be mismatched from the beginning.
In 1 backfill is too aggressive so, as I already stated in a previous comment, the matchmaking should be tightened at the least so that backfill isn't so aggressive if that is what's happening. But players leave hard lobbies not easy ones so that still doesn't explain how you can "shop for new players" reliably if you need to get backfilled in. If anything you'll end up in harder lobbies as killer a ton more as those are the ones people leave. So really this would be affecting killers negatively more (which should still get fixed).
In 2 the MMR itself is the source of the problem because it's too loose, so changing leaving won't really solve anything. As per my first few statement. So MMR should be tightened in general.
New players and vet players shouldn't be matched up I agree. But if that's happening in any sort of reliable frequency that points to a general MMR matchmaking issue and not just a leaving lobby issue imo. So the MMR is the main problem not the dodging. Fix the MMR and you fix the dodge "problem". Change the dodge system and we still have mismatched lobbies.
If this is happening, dodging is just a scapegoat when the actual core problem is the MMR matchmaking. Dodging itself shouldn't reasonably be doing any harm as it just resets the search. The problem comes if the search itself is flawed.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
As someone who got matched against a prestige 100 when i had less than 10 hours of gameplay, and against 2 80+ prestige survivors, one 75+ prestige survivor and one 40+ prestige survivor when i had less than 15 hours……. no. I didnt even had a single prestiged character by that point
Until the matchmaking is properly fixed and dont backfill horribly, dodging some lobbies is a must.
Full stop.
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If i see more than two flashlights, i pick lightborn.
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It's been said already, but apples and oranges here:
One is in match, the other isn't. I won't lose my items/add-ons and 10-15 minutes of my time in a lost cause if a killer dodges my lobby. Worst case, I wait another minute or two for the next one. Usually, like 30 seconds.
And let's not forget that survs can and often do dodge lobbies as well.
I don't dodge often, and it's never because I am dodging just shopping for a lobby of newborn potatoes. It might be because it's 3-4 TTVs who you know aren't going to play an earnest match. Or it might be when I have a challenge and am not even prioritizing a win, but with a killer I rarely use and just don't want to face a squad of P100s.
And I know many experienced survs will load into a lobby, see a bunch of P0s and P1s in base cosmetics, and nope the hell right out of there.
Ditching in game is another animal altogether.
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It's that dodging that causes the backfills though!
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This playing as Killer theres no way to circumvent the DC penalty i have to playout the match yes i can leave whenever but ill get a penalty everytime i DC.
Playing as Survivor anytime something doesn't go my way oh see an Artist or i get downed in 10 seconds im first chase i have this ultimate 3rd option hook suicide to circumvent the DC penalty and not playout the match screw over my teammates and i can do this infinitely without reprecussion cause its built in the game.
How is that fair? It's an outdated mechanic that needs changes just make it you have 3 chances to 4% but the meter doesn't drain when attempting
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Cool, but i wont get stuck as a prestige 1 killer with 25 hours against a survivor team with 340 prestige in total. If thats the price to pay, so be it.
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I think you did not understand what JPLongstreet meant.
Because someone else decided to dodge the Lobby, you got into this situation in the first place. You would not need to dodge Lobbies in which you dont belong into if others, who would belong into those Lobbies, would not dodge them before you.
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I get it perfectly, but im fully confident that people would still do it even with DC penalties, as survivors clearly prove (it would be less frequent, i will give you that).
And i dont want to get a penalty just because a prestige 87 killer decided to get one.
I understood it from minute one.
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Maybe survivors should be able tol see the killer they are vs to make it more even. Would save a bunch of dying on hooks vs skull merchants lol… maybe at the 15 second mark you can't edit your load out or perks but it reveals the killer and people can decide then if they wish to move forward. Killers gain insane amount of info during the lobby and can shop and cherry pick non swf non flash lights or items they can even check profiles and find newbs. Survivors can't do any of that and you see that fact ripple into the match when people give up early
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We'd like to ask what happens after if a survivor don't like what they see?
Does the whole lobby get removed? We then get both sides lobby shopping till doomsday. Only 1 dips? Then each survivor who stays knows who the killer is and can switch builds accordingly and while the killer can also switch perks, they can't switch power.
And we feel the need to repeat this: currently survivors can switch entire load outs with the click of a button at the last second. All the info killers get at the start is only info survivors let them have.
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Killers can and do just go stand in a corner afk to avoid having to DC. You can even open the gates when they're powered to trigger egc.
And probably the biggest 'not penalized for it' is killers lobby dodging. If the killer decides not to play out that match, they just leave before it's begun. Which currently usually ends up ruining that lobby for 5 other players.
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I think comparing a lobby dodge that means 20-30 seconds of additional search with ruining a match of 7-8 minutes a bit misleading at best…… or deceitful at worst.
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And that's fair enough! But in my experience, the types of groups that all bring in flashlights are also built to grief even in the event that a Killer comes in with both Lightborn and Franklin's. Nah, I'll move on, there's more where they came from.
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It doesn’t ruin a match if a group of Survivors who are bad go against a backfill Killer way out of their league? It doesn’t ruin the match for the backfill baby Killer who’s getting bullied because experienced Killers didn’t want to deal with flashlights/toolboxes? Killers who lobby dodge can ruin matches for five other people before they even begin.
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Im a simple man. If theres 3 or 4 flashlights, i inmediately bring lightborn
Thats not a dodge for me.
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As i already said in a previous thread, i dont think backfill should skip MMR.
But thats not really a players fault. Especially not a 20 hour killer who doesnt want to fight presiges 80+.
Thats the fault of the guy who thought matching people with 2k hours in the game and people with 20 was a good idea.
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Well if a killer decides to dodge a lobby im in, i'll never know because i dont pay attention to the boring lobby screen anymore. But if a survivor ragequits mid match i have downsides on both sides if i am their teammate or the killer.
So you alredy have a big difference there. Though i wouldnt mind if it were to be implemented exactly like you said, as long as we can get rid of people that dont even want to play the game im fine.0 -
(it's not just killers. survivors do that to other survivors too). You can't have both.
I’ve noticed how bad it’s gotten. It’s not enough to impose arbitrary limitations onto the Killer. Now Survivors have to control how other Survivors play. If that’s not entitlement I don’t know what is.
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