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Is it fine to say that Chases are generally becoming unfun?
Killer powers has been coming incredibly cheesy recently and those that are still have level of back and forth is slowly getting updated to be more cheesy (Twins). Unsafe pallets too is increasingly getting more common.
Doesn't help that doodoo servers with killers swinging way too early and getting rewarded for it, Can't remember the last time I played a DBD match where connection felt good.
Comments
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I think unsafe pallets are good for the game. Learn how to loop without dropping god pallets, safe pallets, I also think killers powers aren’t becoming more cheesy. Unknown and Chucky’s powers imo are the most fun to go against in a killer in a long time.
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You can say what you want, but we disagree. Considering that some "back and forth" is running around a car, that we can see over, 3 or so times and drop pallet...yes we disagree.
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Pretty ironic I'm being told to learn how to loop while you preach unsafe pallet that just requires you to run around in a circle and guess a rigged 50 - 50 but okay.
Unknown? I disagree, I just slap a nade on the ground even in a safe pallet. Barely any counter play to it.
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Good thing you can just tank the only car pallet in the map and there's no more safe pallets. Disagree alright.
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Yeah, idk about that.
Unsafe pallets are kinda bad for the game. Definitely good for Killer though, makes it extremely easy when all you have to do is respect the pallet and get a free hit.
Likewise, MAYBE you could have a case for Unknown, but Chucky's power is cheeks. Scamper under pallet for a free hit. Not great design
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I haven't been playing for long compared to some, but I think unsafe pallets may as well not be on the map. Unless you have good ping and can time a stun, it's as good as having no pallet there. Don't even know why they bother spawning.
I personally think they are balancing the maps around higher MMR Survivors, ignoring the fact that chases already don't last very long at low MMR.
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The problem with the pallets they add now is they are literally useless. Even if you do manage to stun the killer you still don't have time to get anywhere. Pallets should be somewhere in the middle in terms of how strong they are. Not ones that are completely useless to the point where they might as well not even exist. The map design on the latest Haddonfield rework is by far the worst I have ever seen in the entire history of this game. It's balanced around an M1 trapper with 300 hours and no perks being able to win. A terrible decision considering how strong the average killer is these days.
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Now while I'm fine with a few unsafe pallets there are several maps that spawn almost complete dead zones on one side with like 3 pallets that aren't loopable and that is a problem for this game, I shouldn't be able to just shut my brain off and mindlessly bloodlust because the pallet loop is so small that becomes the best play, that's not fun for me as a killer or the survivor I'm chasing because at that point I'm catching someone I'm already faster than due to bad design and not because I did something to earn it , it's not some widespread issue or anything but I do think they need to look at certain maps and re-evaluate their spawn logic to improve consecutive tiles in a row that are bad and for example I mean a pallet with a single rock on one side and a tree on the other type setup where I don't have to respect it at all and if there a few of those together in a row I don't even have to think to win that chase
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I think many killers that come out now are all about shutting down loops, which can be frustrating for survivors as the only "defense" you have against a killer is loops. So when one gets completley shut down you're only defense is gone. Looping is the most annoying things for killers so it makes sense people really enjoy the ones who don't have to deal with it.
But more shut-down of loops means less chase time which leads to people slamming on gens because if looping doesn't buy time anymore you just can't risk getting off a gen unless absolutely necessary. It's an interesting cycle.
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Your gonna want to define "safe". Besides weren't you talking about back and forth? 🎶 Where's the back and forth?
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"Unsafe" as in, mindgamable pallets, are ideal. There should be literally 0 god pallets. Pallets should all be mindgamable by a killer.
Why? Because god pallets waste far more time than you realize. Imagine a scenario where the game starts and the killer runs to the end of the map and starts a chase. During this time, 3 survivors hop on 3 different gens.
A single dropped god pallet that MUST be broken by the killer, buys a survivor 10.8 meters of distance, even more if the pallet stuns them, but we are looking at the minimum. That buys a solid 15 seconds of distance on a killer.
That means when you factor in that you have to hit the survivor twice, they get a speed boost for the first hit, and you just predrop a god pallet that you have to break, then the survivor just shift +w to the furthest corner of the map, the killer is going to lose 3 gens before they can even hook that survivor.
God pallets are bad for the game, because they are just too easy. There is no skill involved in pressing spacebar predropping, and still continuing to run. It isn't fun.
Every single pallet should be mindgamable, and the pallet STUN is what should reward the survivor with distance gained, not just the nature of dropping the pallet. I think pallet STUNS should be INCREASED to around 4 seconds (and then enduring reworked or nerfed) and every pallet should become mindgamable if dropped. That way, the goal of the survivor is to stun the killer to get away, not just predrop some RNG placed pallet that guarantees them 15 seconds of free distance while their team powers through gens.
And when i say mindgamable, i mean that 50/50. It still isn't even a guaranteed hit if you don't get the stun on the pallet. Every loop, every structure, and every pallet, should be designed like an LT wall, where it is a pure 50/50 (is the killer going to keep running? Or are they going to double back?) and if you guess right, you get some distance to either do another go around, or maybe you gain enough distance to run to the next loop and attempt to get the pallet stun at that one.
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You would need to seriously nerf Killers if you want every map to be like Haddonfield.
Most of the pallets are stun or die. The rest are stun and die.
Pallets should NOT function like LT'S. They get shut down by a single perk
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Look at Wesker. One of the most fun back and forth in the game sand safe tiles has a level of counter play to it.
Scamper isn't.
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If gen speeds aren't getting slowed down chase speeds have to get sped up, it's one or the other. Survivors don't like all the anti loop killers with short chases but that's what we get as a consequence of gens being too quick.
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we ment from the car "chase". If you want another, holding W to commonly buy time against anyone without mobility.
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I mean, yeah it's okay to say that but whether or not people agree is gonna be up for debate, as we've seen.
I think this is gonna come down to what Killer you're playing against and, more importantly, how they're playing. I know that's a profound thing to say but still lol
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A chase is no fun if the killer can't reasonably get you. What you're calling an unsafe pallet is most likely a fair pallet. The killers don't have cheesy powers; they have powers which allow them to get you. And those are few and far between.
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Chases are in the weird position of being both the most and least fun aspects of the game. Interactions are clearly the most exciting part of the game, but chases very often feel like a formulaic game loop, especially as your competition gets better.
As you move up in mmr players all start doing the "right" things more, but that can actually make the game more boring. It's like "I know what you're probably going to do, you know what I'm probably going to do, so we're going to do the same dance we've both probably done 20 times today". The game becomes essentially a series of coin flips. As players get better, they also get more predictable; "maximum efficiency" DBD is often an insufferable bore.
It can be really tedious, and the times I've most questioned why I'm still playing this game is in these situations where it just feels like groundhog day. And I mean this from both the killer/surv perspectives.
So while many players would like all tiles to function much the same way and strats to be predictably effective, I welcome more variability and weird stuff.
Post edited by Thusly_Boned on2 -
I disagree. I think anti-loop killers are some of the most fun to verse, if the anti-loop is done right.
Take Wesker for example. He has a strong chase ability, but it also leaves room for a lot of counterplay on the survivors side, making him a very fun killer to verse. Unkown is another example in my opinion. Good anti-loop, but with enough counterplay. Vecna will most likely be similar to this as well, having anti-loop potential, but still having counterplay as well.
It's killers like Knight which I personally find very problematic. Because they can just shut down loops completely, and the only counterplay you have in that case is holding w to another loop. It's very boring to verse. Twins is an example of a killer that you can't really counterplay in chase at all, which is also why they are so disliked.
When it comes to pallets, I do agree there has been a rise of unsafe pallets, but in my opinion, most maps still have enough mindgameable and safe pallets as well. The new Greenville map is the only map that has too many unsafe pallets in my opinion.
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Yes, a lot of newer Killers are designed to be easy anti loop and it causes chases to be boring. Chucky, Xenomorph in Crawler, Knight and Unknown are all free hits if the Killer has a brain. Their anti loop is extremely formulaic and boring. I’d much rather face 20 Nurse, Blight, or Weskers in a row than see any of those poorly designed Killers.
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To be fair I've never really enjoyed chases as either role. Either the survivor can't loop and goes down super fast, or they're really good at looping and the killer is stuck just running around the same loop a half dozen times until they drop the pallet and you run to the next one. Both are incredibly boring.
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If they hand designed the maps then yes it would make sense to have such deadzones…. but they don't so why have them in the first place
And if they did hand design the maps it would be easier to fix and change them
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There's still tons of god pallets in the game.
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Your comment gives it away honestly. Unsafe pallets are meant for you to go down on so a teammate can get the save. But hey I would gladly get rid of all unsafe pallets so I can just get the down and hook for free.
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that's definitely a new one
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Surely it’s not
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Idk if it's just me but I think dead dawg saloon is a good example of a balanced map, it's got a couple unsafe pallets but majority of the pallets and tiles are fair, the map isn't too big for a generic killer and the breakable walls can help shorten the strong loops the map has making it so every survivor can't abuse the same strong tile over and over, if I was gonna make one change to that map it would be to make the breakable wall upstairs just a open doorway and the doorway by the gen and window should already be open the main building is an extremely strong tile and I would argue the extra walls are just unnecessary and overkill in that one spot.
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Definitely is. Unsafe pallets are there for other survivors to get a save? Im not discounting it, but that's a strong take. Maybe I missed it in a past BHVR post, which is totally possible.
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Can't recall hearing it before.
Certainly a…strong take.
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It is the most obvious use for them lmao. Do people really not know that 8 years into this game? There are god pallets, normal good pallets and 1-2 unsafe pallets on the map. If you drop those unsafe rare pallets you are literally wasting them and buying zero time for the team. You’ll get hit either way so it would be zero iq to drop them.
Especially with the advent of Background player it takes a simple call out and your mate literally sprints across the entire map, gets the save and the sprints all the way back to the opposite side of the map. For solo you don’t really have that option but from what I see 90% of the people I play against are at the minimum duos.
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If using pallets for pallet saves is a strong take I think we are playing an insanely different game 😂
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most likely, if you are seeing pallet saves on either side routinely
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Considering there is a perk that allows a player to cross the entire map that is very popular among my SWF and every other SWF on top of having zero counter play except for slugging. It’s very common for people to attempt to pallet save.
We must be playing different games after all because people attempt saves at least half of all pick up attempts. And when it’s me and my SWF we attempt saves 90% of the time.
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I don't play with good Survivors because I am not a good Survivor.
I can't seem to find any opponents to match my skill either. It's why I enjoy when people come into my stream to tell me goofy builds.
Post edited by Pulsar on0 -
Chases are becoming too oppressive because of the speed of the gens, if gen speeds aren't addressed then we're going to see more maps liked Abattoir and killers getting insane buffs like clown.
Here's the changes i would make to the gens
Heavily nerf the most powerful gen progression/regression items and perks across both sides so prove thyself, Resilence, Toolboxes, Pop, Surge etc etc
Then add a 30 second corrupt intervention basekit and increase the kick damage from 5% to 10%.
For each survivor that dies reduce the gen regression events by 4, so that if one survivor dies it goes from 8-4, two survivors die then gens cant be regressed anymore.
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Must be nice to have teammates that can do well timed pallet saves. Low MMR Solo Q is everyone looking out for themselves or if you're "lucky", Survivors taking hits and trying to sabo for no sensible reason and then instantly going down (points for effort I guess, but please don't be this guy).
DBD is not really a team game for Survivor players outside of high MMR or a SWFs, so I don't think maps should be balanced as if it's this way for everybody.
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Depends on the pallet I'd say.
I don't think every pallet needs to be a god pallet or super safe, but I agree that some pallets are definitely too unsafe and should be better. (Eg, the Haddonfield edge bush pallets, and the ones they added on Coldwind after they reworked it.)
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I main Pig and Sadako. I get shift w'd almost every chase despite these killers not having g a strong chase ability.
Shift w is incredibly powerful and is done against every killer if possible.
Both sides makes the chase more unfun if it is the optimal thing to do.
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I’m in no way saying it gets the save even half of the time. It’s just having it as a potential option. The threat of a potential pallet save. Better to go down on the unsafe pallet and have the killer waste time checking the area than to throw it and immediately go down after and gaining nothing at all.
Unless of course you have Lithe in which case an unsafe pallet can be god tier by getting you to be able to Lithe away. No pallet is useless, simple.
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Honestly now I think about it, this may be way I been having a super unfun time in DBD. Few months ago I used to play at least 2 hours a night and had fun playing random killers but now I can't even force myself to play more than 2 matches every couple of nights. The games just aren't fun. Chases usually boil down to survivors pre dropping shift w away. On top of that my matches just feel super mismatched. Like the MMR system is broke for me or something bc I rarely have a match that isn't just a stomp on either side.
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I want to stress I am not at all saying you are wrong. I've just never heard someone speculate that BHVR put certain pallets in the game for the purpose of them being the 'save your mate' pallet. That's my clarification error misses its check. Is there any info on this? I always just figured if there's way safe pallets for survivors, there should be way unsafe. Balance for both sides.
It’s just having it as a potential option. The threat of a potential pallet save.
Also this really does just apply to all pallets.
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Chases start to feel more or less the same after a while because a lot of people tend to prefer one type of killer.
There is essentially three types of killers in the game. There is killers who are able to end chases quickly and counter looping to some degree, killers who are able to get around the map for easy pressure/surprise attacks (hit and run) and M1 killers. Seeing as how looping is the only thing survivors have to fight back against the killer (and that it often is what killers find most annoying in core gameplay), it's no surprise that a majority of people opt for a killer who can end chases quicker. That is probably why it feels so cheesy.
As for unsafe pallets, I have mixed feelings. Some of the newer maps have a majority of unsafe loops, and they are unsafe to the point where you just bait the pallet down and you are pretty much guaranteed a hit. That shouldn't be the case. But not every loop should be a long, safe loop with no mind game potential either. There needs to be a variety of both, and they desperately need to fix map spawns so one side has nothing but the minimum unsafe loops while the other is full of all the extremely safe loops.
Also that last part probably isn't the servers. The hitboxes in this game are still pretty terrible, to the point where I often have to question as a killer how some of my hits landed when they did not visibly connect on my screen
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Personally I don't see much difference between running in a straight line and running in a circle.
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One involves risk, reading the opponent /Mindgames, game knowledge and I dare say : skill.
The other does not involve any of that except sometimes mindgames.
Looping is usually also more fun for both sides.
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I don't feel like reads, mindgames, or skill come into play when I have to chase someone around a car 5 times.
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Depends on how badly the matchmaker screwed up.
Obviously if you aren't super crazy at Killer and the MM decides it wants to put you against Ayrun, it won't seem like there's much skill expression there.
But if it puts someone like KnightLight or Zaka against Ayrun, then suddenly there's a lot of interactivity and skill involved.
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It heavily depends on the loop.
LT for example has a ton of that.
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The Scooby-Doo triple run around a fence into dropping pallet is precisely why I love Artist. I understand why survivors do it, but it just looks so stupid.
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