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Why won't BHVR let Killers see how many survivors are in a SWF in the lobby?
That way killers can decide if they want to torture themselves against a group with a massive unfair advantage they can't counter.
Of course I know what SWF mains will say: "If you did that, no Killer would every play against a SWF!". Gee, it's almost like SWFS AREN'T FUN TO PLAY AGAINST'.
Comments
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Lobby dodging should be highly discouraged. It messes with matchmaking and also artificially increases queue times. SWFs have as much of a right to play this game as everyone else. Also just because someone plays in a SWF that doesn't mean they suddenly turn into a professional basement dweller.
Chances are you play against more SWFs than you think and mostly don't notice any difference. But SWFs have a pretty bad reputation because many killer players find it easier to cope when claiming everyone they lose to clearly plays in a SWF.
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Same reason why survivors don't see the killer in lobby. Personally I'd be fine if both sides had that information.
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"Of course I know what SWF mains will say: "If you did that, no Killer would every play against a SWF!".
You just answered your own question.
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SWFs didnt ask why killers cant see who's in a swf. Killers did.
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Show who got invited AFTER the match instead. Should be easy to do with a symbol in the endscreen lobby as BHVR already claimed to have SWFs stats. I think many killers would be suprised when it's a 2 man SWFs or just 4 good solos. Also i would love to see icons for each plattform post game, like in other online crossplay games.
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Statistics show that 4SWF has only a 4% higher escape rate than soloQ, so few killers should avoid the lobby because of that. Survivor wait times will not increase even if implemented.
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Because this way SWFs wouldn't be able to play at all, since every self-respecting killer would just dodge them.
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You are talking about that funny picture with numbers BHVR presented as "statistic" on the "trust me bro" basis, which does not correlate to the real experience of players. We need an independent source in order to talk about statistics.
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Sounds like a good idea, until you realise you'd never get a game.
This was before Billy was buffed, so you can bet that isn't the same value anymore.
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I am well aware of the credibility of the numbers BhVR publishes, as I have seen the days when they used to subdivide the park into slots 1-4 and publish each slot in order to deceive the DH usage rate.
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You can play as much as you like in kill your friends though. Oh you don't earn bp? Isn't the point to play with your friends and not farm bp? Or are you actually using a swf to farm bp?
Just because you want to play with your friends, doesn't mean i want to.
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Because it'll encourage lobby dodging. 2/4 survivors are a SWF? Dodge. Apply the same concept to 3 and 4-man swfs, and it creates a mess for matchmaking. The problem with painting all SWFs as being equal in skill to the likes of Hens and the people he plays with is that most SWFs are just casual players who want to play with their friends.
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And I have a right to know the survivors have an advantage that I cannot counter, voice comms, and a right to decide if I want to play against people with an unfair advantage.SWF win rates might not be much higher than solo queue (or so BHVR said and I take their word with massive mounds of salts) but it's miserable to play against SWFs regardless.
Yeah, because it's the same argument I always see SWFs use to argue against anything that could provide Killers info that they are at a disadvantage.
The bad faith comparison SWF mains make is 'well why can't we see who the Killer is in matches'? Because that would allow SWFs to directly counter the Killers base kit. Going against the Doctor? Bring Calm Spirit. Going against the Plague? Bring things like No Mither or Resilience. Going against M1 Killers? Bring chase works since most of the M1 killers are incredibly weak.
I find SWFs to be miserable to play against. I don't expect to win every match but to get stomped by a highly coordinated SWF and you feel helpless to do anything the entire time? That just makes me want to quit.
Oh, about to get your first down? A SWF member rushes over and bodyblocks and sandbags you so you can't get the down. Oh, you got your first down? SWF rushes over with a flashlight, flash bang or sabos the nearest hook to you. Give up the chase because it's clear you're wasting your time? The SWF rushes over to quickly patch up the injured survivor meaning you spent your time in case for absolutely nothing.
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This is why this game needs casual and competitive. One of DBD's biggest problems is that the game tries to appease both, fails and appeases nobody.
Casual should be balanced around solo queue and thus be more survivor sided.
Competitive should be balanced around SWF and thus should be more killer sided.
More information should be available in competitive to both sides however dodging should be harshly punished with waits before you can queue again.
This is obviously extremely oversimplified and details would be need to ironed out in a way a comment here won't do but just a general outline.
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Why can't survivors see what killer they'll be facing in the lobby screen?
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Because that would allow survivors to pick perks that hard counter the Killer. Knowing a survivor group is a SWF doesn't hard counter anything other than informing the Killer they are against a SWF.
If SWF mains are so terrified they would get constantly lobby dodged, maybe BHVR should give killers a +200-300% BP incentive to play against SWFs.
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I ask as a rhetorical and the prove that both should never be a thing and both would increase lobby dodging.
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IF killers would have such information then the only fair thing to do is let surviviors know what killer they are going against before the match starts. What do you think about that OP?
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And I have a right to know the survivors have an advantage that I cannot counter, voice comms, and a right to decide if I want to play against people with an unfair advantage.
As far as the devs are concerned, you don't. It's completely irrelevant. Also, the rules decide what is and isn't unfair. Playing in a SWF is not against the rules, which means it's not unfair. Even with voice comms.
I find it so interesting that some players always seem to know exactly that their opponents are playing in a SWF with voice comms. Do you have some sort of nasa technology, that tells you who is and isn't part of a SWF? Most SWFs are really not any different to play against than solo survivors, so it's pretty hard to tell. You can assume, sure, but that doesn't mean you're right.
The interesting part about all the things you list and that make SWFs so "horrible" to play against, is that it can in every game no matter if any of them play together or not. They get a flashlight save because you failed to counter it. They bodyblock you because they did something right (someone was healthy, in the area and also got between you and the other survivor), they sabotaged a hook because they noticed that you carried their team mate to a certain hook etc. It can all happen in solo queue too and it is not an issue for the most part. The situations in which any of these are problematic, are a completely seperate issue. They don't go away just because people start dodging every other lobby.
Bold of you to assume I play in a SWF. Especially since you're wrong. I am a killer main and as a survivor I play almost exclusively solo.
Also, why should you get to decide if you want to play against a SWF or not? Survivors can't choose their killer either and neither side has the option to choose their opponent's perks. But if we're going to let people choose even one of those, then there is no reason why the others shouldn't follow. This would lead to DBD turning into TCM where players spend more time in the lobby than the actual game. Congrats, you have successfully killed a game that somehow survived 8 years.
If you're so scared of encountering a SWF, that probably means you don't have a lot of confidence in your skills as a killer. In that case you have a different issue altogether, which is expecting results you already know you can't achieve.
That part about playing in a KYF lobby works for killers too. Oh, you don't want to play against SWFs? Just invite a bunch of random people to play with you. Unless of course the point is to farm BP and not to avoid SWFs.
Let people play with their friends and focus on yourself. Who knows, you might even learn something from all these terrible, unbeatable SWFs on comms.
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So basically the only answer you'd accept is the one you agree with. Because plenty of killers chime in these threads stating they don't have problems winning against SWF too.
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because swf want keep they bully sim.
we should see who in swf after match tho.
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What would stop the competitive players from playing in casual for 'easier' games?
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I dont think BHVR should do this.
Look at 95% of the multiplayer games that exist and most of them do not show if people are playing with their friends or not. Since realistically, yes they do gain an advantage, but at the same time it will lead to toxicity and harassment towards people who play with their friends.
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???
B/c you shouldn't be allowed to lobby shop. Survivors can't see the killer they're facing and thats been asked for years. It would lead to even more lobby shopping. You would just leave lobbies left and right until you find a lobby with solo que novices that you can stomp just so you feel good.
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I'm not seeing the problem here? I'm getting 3k+ in at least 70% of my games. Most games are a 4k. What does people being in a SWF matter at this point?
You can obviously tell when a group is not a SWF on comms. The game is disgustingly easy, and so boring that I end up apologising in endgame chat. I can't even imagine playing like that every game, there's no challenge. 😴
I can just imagine killers joining and leaving lobbies over and over until they find a group of solo survivors with less than 500 hours. When I play survivor I can already see them doing it when they see a single P100 in a lobby.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
I agree, killers should be able to see who is queuing up with who
However, if you dodge a lobby, you should get a 5 minute penalty
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Brother is a killer.
You chose the wrong way to deal with the SWF. If you really want to defeat this many-headed hydra, you need to find allies. Those who suffered just as much because of the SWF. I'm talking about solo survivors. One of the most unfortunate roles along with killers.After all, all the misfortunes of solo survivors and killers occur through the fault of SWF. Solo survivors literally have to pay for all the shenanigans the SWF. The killers preemptively hit any lobby in anticipation of SWF. Both sides become miserable while treacherous SWF feast on the misfortune of solo survivors and killers.
If we really want to overthrow the dictatorship of the SWF. Solo survivors and killers must strike a mutually beneficial deal. Together, go into a mode where playing with hooks will be an important part.
Solo mode. Every 1-2 players receive a built-in Decisive Strike and Off the Record for each hook stage for 120 seconds until a noticeable action is made. They become more powerful if you take the perks of the same name. Plus, in case of a slug, when there are 2 survivors left, each acquires Decisive Strike, Off the Record and Unbreakable without noticeable actions.
Survivors with friends. 3-4 players. An ordinary game. The killer can camp, tunnel and slug. Because the SWF will be able to easily resist all the dubious tactics of the killer.
As a result, Killers will have a choice and each target group will get what they deserve. Thanks to this, there will not even be a lobby sale because each party will know where it is going.
Play fair on hooks in solo mode and be severely punished if camping and tunneling occur. Or play dishonest games with SWF using dishonest tactics.
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Those icons like the PlayStation or Xbox logos I think they'd have to pay for.
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Something like half of all survs are in at least a two-man SWF, with trios much less common and quads even less so. Showing this info in the lobby would absolutely lead to mass lobby dodging and destroy MMR completely. Wait times for everyone, everywhere, would soar drastically as MMR is wreaked beyond repair.
If they added in this wouldn't a killer shop around until they get just four solos, throw on Knock-Out and the like, and proceed to steamroll everyone? So SWF survs get no matches and they all quit the game. And solos survs are constantly crushed even more than now and they too quit the game.
That leaves just you and bots. Have fun!
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Incentives or bragging rights for doing well in comp like rankings or anything for people to give a damn about. You are ultimately not going to fix everything and some people will play just to stomp but that's already true.
If anything the reverse could be a problem. Would there be a shortage on killers willing to play casual where things are harder? Going into details about how both would work, potential problems, pitfalls and solutions would be glossed over by almost everybody if not everybody.
Whatever the case for as long as things stay the way they are, almost nobody is going to be happy. If anyone has a better idea for how to deal with the casual/comp and swf/solo divide I'm all ears.
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If knowing it is a SWF group vs not a SWF group creates a scenario where everyone starts dodging the SWF groups, that would indicate that there is a problem with SWF and the game balance would it not?
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It could also indicate that people don't want to play against SWFs due to the perceived image of "OMG Swf Op squad incoming" rather than anything towards balance. People have proven to be cowards sadly.
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The same reason they generally don't in other games.
- DotA has a casual mode called "turbo" where the game is about half as long, the stakes are much lower, and the game is more chill. Yeah, competitive players sometimes play it, but usually to goof around with some crazy build or character.
- CS2 has a casual mode where you get extra money and free armor and defuse kits and can leave and join as you please. Competitive players almost never play that mode, because this mode is inherently not competitive.
- LoL has an unranked mode, and other casual modes like ARAM that give you random characters and throws everyone against each other in a single lane. Competitive players generally aren't playing this mode, and if they are its again, to goof around with stuff in a lower stakes game.
- Overwatch has an unranked mode, where you can come and go, and the game is far more casual, competitive players generally aren't playing this mode and again, if they are its to goof around.
What makes DBD so special that would make it exempt from this? And don't say "because it is asymmetrical" without explaining WHY.
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Again, if that is the perception, would that not indicate that there is something to that perception? Its not like it just came out of nowhere and is completely factually untrue right? Even the data shows that SWF tend to escape more than solos. So again, i ask. Wouldn't that indicate that perhaps there is a problem in regards to game balance as it relates to SWF?
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I mean, the same argument could be said about anything one can dislike because the problem is that there is no setback to lobby dodging at all.
Take nurse for example.
How many would dodge if they knew they are about to face a nurse? Would that also indicate there is a problem with her and the game balance?
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Answer is obvious no? Because lobby dodging would increase massively...
I would be fine with the game showing who's in a sfw AFTER the game ended. Bet it would humble a lot of killers quickly lol
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I will be one of the first nurse mains to tell you that she is a problem. But currently she is the only killer that is viable at the highest of levels when there are no restrictions put upon survivors.
I think we need to deal with the other 30+ killers first before we start addressing nurse.
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Not particularly. One particularly loud complainer could have met a swf that beat them due to skill or the opposite. We don't know. Was it particularly bad killers just yelling "swf op" till everyone starts to believe or did it come from facts?
Does this data include the survivors who give up on hook for solo matches? A 4 man swf is less likely to have that happen, perhaps that's why it's "op"? Ultimately we admit we don't know, but what we do know is that many people on this game will blame everything but themselves for a loss.
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So all survivors play casual mode to sweat and all killers play competitive mode to sweat, and nobody gets into any game.
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Perception exists for a reason. Ignoring that means you are lacking empathy for other players who are experiencing things just because you don't see them.
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-Most Turbo games I've played are not really all that different from normal games. People still pick meta and goofing off is generally looked down on. But it's also a sped up version of the game with different modifiers, how would you create a modified dbd when the games are so short and the depth is not there?
-Dont play cs2
-Normal Draft pick in League is actually way more sweaty than ranked up until a certain point once you get a high enough MMR. I don't think Aram should've been mentioned.
-Quick play in OW is still sweaty, people will goof off for the first minute or so then immediately swap to meta once they start losing.
Consensus: Ranked queues only work if the rewards and prestige for a high ranking are there. DBD has neither and I doubt they'd implement it.
A lot of players do not want challenging games, which is why lobby dodging is so prominent.
What they should do is stop being stubborn and offloading all the rewards of the match on the outcome and instead redistribute rewards based on hollistic individual performance.
Running the killer for 5 gens and dying or two hooking all survivors and getting a 0k should not feel as bad as they do currently.
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confirmation bias. The only SWFs you notice are the ones that play in annoying playstyles you don't like. You never notice the SWFs that are playing with their friends while blowing skill checks, talking smack, searching for chests, and doing totems, and getting 12 hooked at 4 gens left - because they don't play like your preconceived notion of a SWF.
all bully squads are SWFs, but not all SWFs are bully squads. all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs. though there are some people who get together to make killer players miserable, the majority of SWF are people playing normally with friends, and people having friends and wanting to have an excuse to chat with them is not a conspiracy to ruin your gameplay experience.
they should show who was in a SWF after the game, not before, so people hopefully will start learning that SWF is not the axis of evil
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Lets ask, why do you need to know?
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So basically anyone who wants to play with friends shouldn’t be able to earn BP, XP and progress in the game? You sound absolutely ridiculous right now.
I can’t tell you how many matches I play with a full SSF where we are simply there to meme for the laughs and we all leave with 5-10K BP.
Sounds like you need to just play another game if you’re this upset about people being able to play with their friends without you knowing about it.
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Not really. How many times have you seen people curse at these horrible, unbeatable and totally unfair SWFs? And how many times do you actually lose against a SWF? So many people seem to gaslight themselves into thinking, that SWFs are some kind of unstoppable force, that completely changes the game. When in reality it's just people playing with their friends.
Do they have an advantage? Undoubtedly. Can you still beat them? Yes. But it's easier to cope when you tell yourself that you didn't have a chance to win anyway because your opponent used something unfair. Honestly, what's scary as a killer is not 4 people playing together but 4 people actually playing good. That can happen in solo queue as well (although the chances are lower).
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We do have a lack of empathy because we lack information. Or more accurately, information we can trust. People have claimed this or that is "OP" when we've seen for ourselves it's not. At best, it was "OP" for that individual, at worst just ridiculous. It's all a matter of perspective yes. Looking at our perspective, we don't think its some horrible imbalance, while looking at previous posts others would very much disagree.
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This 'perception' is vastly overblown by confirmation bias.
The stats show that SWF have a minor advantage, which is to be expected because they can coordinate.
This isn't something that can be 'fixed'. You can give solo survivors all of the info SWF have (which there is still more they can do in this regard, don't get me wrong) but that still won't make up for the main factor that is "4 survivors who have chosen to cooperate".
Fact is that SWF don't provide so much of a skill discrepancy most of the time, that killers should feel the need to dodge them, but they would. 9/10 SWF games aren't going to be insurmountable challenges for most killers, but killers will see a SWF and assume it's the 1/10 that would, every time.
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Not really. It would indicate a players lack of a backbone more than anything else. Similar to people thinking p100=God tier player, it's just another misconception
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Ehh it would be fine to reveal SWF status if we also make it so that backing out of a lobby as Killer counts as 1/2 a leave for the DC queue penalty (and Survivor as 1/4), with backout penalties being applied when you reach the next full number. Killers lobby dodging are already ruining the matchmaking, and you are matchmade against the team you are SUPPOSED to go against, whether it be solos, double duos, or a 4-man.
The MMR is also already taking their dedicated 4-man advantages into account since they would have the higher escape rate. That means that SWFs are actually weaker than their equal MMR soloq counterparts, since the comms gave a fake MMR boost. (Eg. 1800 MMR soloq, or 1600MMR SWF + 200 comms bonus.) That means your chases as Killer are actually easier when going against SWFs.
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Didn't you say in the last discussion that the difference in survival rates between solo and SWF is that solos kill themselves on hook more?
Also, in the last discussion you mentioned that skullmerchant has a 70% kill rate, presumably due to hook suicides? So if so many people suicide against skullmerchant, is there an issue with skullmerchant?
Also, since you mentioned data in a different comment:
Across all MMR only 4 man SWF has a higher escape rate and only 3%, so that is really not that big of a difference.
In high MMR 3mans have a 3% higher escape and 4mans have an 8% higher escape rate. Sure, 8% is a significant difference, but the escape rate is still under 50%, so while higher than intended, not crazy high.
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