So now that every viable regression/slowdown perk has been nerfed for Killers...
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Toolboxes aren't the problem. The problem is that against teams that just do generators, you WILL lose 3 gens in the first chase. A SINGLE dropped God pallet in the first chase will add 20 seconds to that chase. All you have to do is, run to the furthest god pallet you can make, predrop it, then shift + w to the opposite corner of the map. By the time the killer catches up hits you twice and hooks you? 90 seconds will have passed, and 3 gens are done. At that point no amount of "playing nice" will ever be able to come back from that.
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I remember the wake up call killers got when 90 second gens changed nothing because all it did was make survivors goof off less and stay on generators.
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nobody does anyway, nor can they be expected to.
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Yeah, I suppose Predator could be counted.
On the survivor side: Autodidact, Potential Energy, Weaving Spiders, No Mither, Deadline.
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The others I could see even if I disagree, but how on earth is Deadline detrimental?
Surely the downside to that perk is that it's just not reliable?
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Actually. Despite the constant complaints about it, I rarely ever see tunneling, camping, and slugging. Maybe once in every 7-8 games. It may just be my mmr, but you saying nobody does anyway is just disingenuous
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it causes skill checks to appear in random places instead of in the center of the screen. not sure if i agree that it's strictly worse than an empty perk slot, but that is a distinct downside
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Do tell, how was Pain Res oppressive? Maybe back in the day when it could be triggered as many times as you could hook survivors but it took a major nerf bat to the knees like a year ago and can only be triggered four times in one match and BHVR still reduced the regression from 25% to 20%. That's without them addressing Scourge Hook spawn RNG to make sure that hooks actually have a good spread around the map.
Pop was hit hard when it was reduced from total progress to current and still got nerfed hard from 30% to 20%. This being a perk that requires you to down a survivor, hook them and then find a generator worth kicking before the 45 second window to use it passes.
BHVRs reasoning for nerfing them, namely 'they were used to much' or 'they are too easy to activate' was incredibly bad faith given the number of heavily used and easy to activate survivor perks they didn't touch. Prove Thyself? Untouched. Built to Last? Untouched. Deliverance? Untouched. Distortion? Untouched. Off the Record? Untouched.
Need I remind you that the 'gen kick' meta survivors wouldn't stop crying about like a year or two ago lasted about all of six months before BHVR gutted gen kick perks. Meanwhile, Dead Hard was meta for like six years before it was finally switched from "Must have" to 'useful to have' and Circle of Healing went unnerfed for like a year and a half when it was an infinite use medkit for every survivor and forced Killers into a no-win situation; if you overcommitted to the chase to secure adown, the other survivors were working on generators. If you gave up the chase, the survivor would rush off to the CoH totem and heal up, meaning the entire chase was for nothing and the other survivors were working on generators uninterrupted.
With BHVRs balancing decisions, you can't exactly blame Killer mains for feeling like BHVR is biased against Killers.1 -
it’s not going anywhere, if killers wanna tunnel someone out let them do it. The word “tunnel” was made up by survivor mains and it’s lost it’s meaning.
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nah.
It's hurting more than helping. At best, it's covering up serious balance issues. At worst, it's an unbalanced and unfun mechanic of a bygone age.
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and what about the stats that show Killers are winning the majority of the time?
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So you think that there's a conspiracy amongst Survivor players to artificially inflate Kill Rates…
DBD has, last I checked, over 60 million players. Precisely how many people do you think are in on this?
And if that's true, what are the real Kill Rates? Do you have access to information we do not? I'd invite you to share it, surely it's invaluable.
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If you're gonna make claims like that and imply that you believe there's different stats that should be believed, then you've got to produce evidence.
Otherwise, I'm sure you understand why I'm skeptical of those claims.
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Untrue.
At least we know 'who's being a bit silly here.
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there’s a fundamental problem when trying to “fix” tunneling, and that is… no matter what you add, the idea is always one of the 3…
• Exploitable by Survivors/Rewards being bad as a survivor
• Heavily Punishes killers who don’t tunnel effecting the average game
•Too Clunky, and difficult to code, and usually falls in tandem with the other 2
I have seen countless ideas for anti tunneling, and each of them always has one of these 3 issues. To be fair, and not to by a hypocrite I don’t really HAVE any ideas to solve tunneling, I don’t really have good ideas in general, but tunneling is something baked into the game.
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Make Survivors intangible off of hook until they do a Conspicuous Action, Rushed Action, have an action performed on them. Consider it an extension of Incapacitated, that way you can't use items either.
Can't be tunneled, can't progress the game. Can't bodyblock or go for saves.
That will show us if there is a base-game balance issue with tunneling effectively killed off. If there is, we need to get to work on fixing it since tunneling has been disguising it for so long. If there isn't, then we've improved the experience for a lot of players with little downside.
But, that's just one idea, I'm sure there are others out there. Most likely significantly better to the one I cooked up in two minutes lol
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And what about pallets? will they be able to use them?
Or how will it work with lockers? will slowly going inside it remove this? or they won't be able to enter at all?
Will they be able to interact with some killer powers and will it remove effect? (turrets/EMPs/hag traps/etc)
And how long does this effect last, if survivor does none of the things you listed?1 -
I don’t want to be nitpicky, or try and start a problem but, if a survivor is completely invincible till they do something, what’s to stop them from not doing anything. They could stay invincible the whole match and wait for hatch, OR some team could hold a game hostage by doing nothing and the killer could not really do anything. If you add a duration for this, if a killer is so committed to tunneling they would just out wait it out.
Also, and this is less of an issue with your idea or not to sound like I’m starting a problem, just to be creative what would be the in game explanation for this? A name I am spitballing is “Entity guarded”
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I'm gonna say no to pallets.
They can get into lockers, but they can get grabbed out of them. Obviously, like you said, fast entering would be a rushed action.
Killer powers is a bit trickier. I'll say that they can't interact with powers, BUT that powers like Pig's Traps for example will still be activated, they'll just take effect when the Survivor loses that status. So if a gen pops, the Trap will be active when the Survivor gets healed for example.
At first I was thinking to have it last forever, but I think that opens up too many hostage situations. So I think giving it a 90 second hard-cap outside of chase (PLENTY of time to get to safety/heal/do whatever else) BUT I would make it so that the timer does not go down if you are in a chase.
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I don't mind the questions nor do I view them as nitpicky. No idea should go unchallenged and we won't arrive to a good idea without it being tested by fire. I am sure you see errors where I cannot.
As for the things you pointed out, a hard time limit of 90 seconds should be able to deter that. Likewise, pause the duration whilst in chase. This should make it unfeasible to tunnel but also prevent hostage scenarios.
I was gonna say Void Kissed or Entity's Touch
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90 Seconds but paused in chase does sound like a nice solution. I think the idea actually has grounds to be feasible in game with those heavy restrictions but some things need to be taken into account
- It requires ironing out especially when it comes to killer powers, Pig being a major hassle to balance with, as it either makes RBT’s completely worthless, or it makes pig into a tunneling nightmare.
- This power deactivates during EGC it’s when the killer is at their strongest, all formalities and guidelines get thrown out the window (side note, Void Kissed sounds perfect, however it doesn’t really thematically make sense? Maybe Entity kissed?)
- Total Rework of all current Anti tunnel perks, Decisive Strike, Off the Record, Borrowed time, and Babysitter all need to be completely reworked, I feel like the idea above would be easy to do, but completely reworking 4 perks (2 of which are meta) would be the most difficult part of implementing this idea
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You still see slowdown perks bc there is no good alt. It's not like there were any bad killer perks that got buffed along aside from the regression perks. All the Nerfs did was reduce the amount of value you get from the perks. Killers are still going to run them because they have no other options, a bunch of killer perks are just outright bad or super niche.
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Yes, it is hard to theory-craft for certain Killer powers and obviously very difficult to see it play out without actually being able to see it in-game. Another one is Pinhead. Ultimately, I do feel like RBT's and the Box are still enough of a threat to be able to function. It's not like you won't be affected by these objects, it's just delayed.
Yes, it should deactivate during EGC.
I think, and keep in mind I'm recalling lore that I read YEARS ago, that when Survivors are put on hooks, the Entity feeds on their hope and emotions. When they are, eventually, turned into emotionless husks via endless Trials, they are cast into the Void, which is essentially Limbo. Void-Kissed makes sense in the idea that the Entity would overlook those Survivors and perhaps discourage the Killer from hunting a Survivor losing hope. It also makes sense in the idea that the player often loses hope when they are being tunneled, and the Entity stepping in to prevent one of it's favorite toys from being drained completely is neat.
DS, OTR or BT could extend the time or add additional effects. For example, OTR could passively heal you throughout the duration of Void-Kissed. DS could extend it's duration. BT could go back to applying a short (and I do mean short, like maybe 4-5 seconds) Endurance effect for the unhooker. Just spitballing here really.
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I mostly play killer, and I used to be a meta slave running 4 slowdowns to get the most optimal results, but trying Aura perks are so damn good, it’s insane it’s like I am better at looping just for seeing their aura for 2 seconds across the map. That being said Distortion is quickly rising up to being my most hated perk to go against
Tangent aside great point is made, there really is no real reason to run any non slowdown perks, you are actively hindering yourself by not running it and it is kinda sad honestly cause you miss out on some insanely fun perks to use. I have been preaching this for a while and every day I feel more comfortable saying it, slightly buff all slowdowns, and then limit the amount you can run, 2 max. Also buff a ton of killer perks, the weaker ones.0 -
I'm just going to jump in to mention that a hook donation system would avoid all of these issues.
Let's say that survivors can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool, and any hooks come out of that pool first, before individual hash marks. (Perk or core mechanic, to be decided) You can still only use deliverance/Kobe attempts on your first hook, and we could even go so far as to say that if you attempt to Kobe at all, it doesn't use the shared hook pool to prevent soh griefing.
It's not exploitable by survivors (or by killers). It also doesn't affect killers who don't tunnel... In fact, spreading hooks becomes the most efficient way to make sure the shared hook pool is empty and you aren't wasting time waiting for the first person you found to be unhooked. If you're already playing so that your first 4 hooks are different survivors, this is exactly the same as live.
There's no 'clunkiness', just a simple coding of the mechanic, and a ui element to show how many shared hooks exist. This isn't some convoluted system where the game has to decide if the gameplay meets some arbitrary criteria.
This is one potential way to make tunneling (and camping as well) completely obsolete. The only way to do that is to make tunneling less efficient, and this does that. Sure, the killer could choose to chase one survivor for 5 hook stages, but leaving the rest of the team alone for that is going to be a losing game. It basically forces killers to spread map pressure, which is a form of slow down.
If other changes are necessary, then so be it. The devs have had no issues with buffing killers individually or more generally with perks other than slowdown lately. Forcing killers to be involved in more chases should be healthy for the game, and might start to wean people off of reliance on quad slowdown perks.
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This is just so wrong. "They have no other options", there are plenty of Perks which are no Slowdown-Perks but worth running. Granted, a huge amount of Perks on both sides is not good, but it is better for Killer IMO. They at least have Perks which can be good on specific Killers (e.g. Iron Maidene on Huntress).
At least stacking Slowdowns is now weaker than before, this is something I guess. But the Perks are far from ruined or anything.
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I never run 4 slowdown. At most I run two slowdown, one info, and a flex perk(depending on the killer in playing) I would love more fun perks other than slowdown but there really isn't. The fun perks we have see so little value from that it's almost handicapping yourself of you decide to run them. Plz devs buff the weaker non slowdown perks so killers have more options for builds.
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I just greatly disagree with you. Killer perk variety is just as bad if not worst then survivors. A lot of perks you just never get consistent value from and are not worth running. Slowdown is the only perks where you see consistent value no matter the match you go in. Even aura perks you might not get any value from if you unlucky enough to run into a survivors who running distortion which I personally do all the time. Chase perks like Dissolution, Hubris, or Unbound you rarely get any value that they not worth running. I could sit here for over a hour listing every weak killer perk and why they not worth running over slowdown perks. This is coming from someone who never runs four slowdown and try to use perks other than slowdown. From my experience alot of perks are just not worth equipping and you just better off running slowdown.
Either way my main point of my original reply that is of course you not going see meta change because right now there still no real good reason to run anything other than regression perks.
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But this is only a half truth tho.
I was not getting tunneled in every game (i still dont). - But i feel it have become worse than it was before this already.
The perks nerfed are the one actually rewarding changing survivors, moving away from hooks and kicking gens. While perks like the "formerly known as jolt" (i can never remember the new/old name as i havent played killer much after the name change) can actually reward killers for every single down. I think it would have made more sense to nerf those perks.
I fear we will get more tunneling and more slugging as a result of the latest patch changes (i hope that i am wrong).
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Now you know that's not true. It cannot be that 100% of killers don't play nice.
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- Can I ask everyone a question? Didn't "Chaos Shuffle" teach you anything? Do you really feel so "addicted" to a couple of perks? (I'm talking to all DBD players, killers and survivors) If you feel """forced""" to use only certain perks to win, perhaps these perks should be nerfed instantly. I remember the old "DH"... when it was severely nerfed it almost seemed like the apocalypse (or the greatest thing in the world if you played Killer), but little by little the game moved forward and we all adapted. I try to play as best as I can, in my philosophy perks are a little "help" but they cannot replace my skills. When a game goes badly (Survivor or killer) I don't blame DBD, Devs, perks, map, the luck/bad luck… I try to understand my mistakes… or simply the players I faced were better than me (unknown concept in this forum).
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To be honest, if ANYTHING ELSE besides doing gens would not be considered trolling these days - then maybe gen rushing wouldn't be such an issue. But with the current meta of the game it's all a survivor can do. Guess it's the price y'all have to pay for wanting a gen kick meta and longer gen repair times.
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They need to start buffing the ######### perks not nerfing the only viable ones
People will still use the nerfed perks because try running a game without slowdown
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It's not actually that hard if you know what you're doing, ftr.
There are a lot of good and viable perks out there that can absolutely bring you comparable value to slowdown perks, you just have to have an understanding of how to use them and how to play DBD's macro game. The state of killer perk variety in terms of what's viable is honestly pretty good right now.
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A foreseeable consequence of nerfing perks for the simple fact of being used. And the funniest thing is that they will receive furter nerfs again for sure, since there is no reason to use anything else. It's not like anyone is going to use thanatophobia or any other alternatives that were nerfed to a worse state from when they received their buffs.
We have a regression of limited uses and percentages based on total progress, which is already a pitiful state. We have gone from unlimited regression from gen kicking to playing practically handcuffed. There is no middle ground, because fighting for the game's objectives is apparently a “bad” thing… We can't protect gens or kill survivor too fast, killers are just party clowns after all.
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I gotta say I did see a little less tunneling during the original Ruin + Undying meta. That could have been luck though, I know the experience wasn't the same for everyone.
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That's true, but I saw even less tunneling during the original Ruin era too
I think those are more a product of the game not being viewed as competitively by either side.
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"the original Ruin era too"
Ah, good times!
Yes, the game becoming more and more competitive (even though we don't have an actual competitive mode, thankfully) is definitely a factor here.
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Not true we had started a hit and run metta with stealth killers/perks then boons were introduced and that killed it and now sloppy is mediocre we just need to start a new meta
We even had a ruin meta. twice and they gutted that the issue is we just can't have fun perks without the fun police revoking it.
I still think ruin should be base kit but at 50%speed and kicking a gen /running ruin makes it 100%
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I think you missed the problem. With the route they’re taking right now, they are actually balancing the game around tunnelling, and promote more Killers to tunnel.
Just ask yourself. How are your games usually go if Killer decides to play nice, especially without slowdowns? I’ll tell you mine, I won most of it as Solo.
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I don't know. I'm a P100, it seems to trigger something in every Killer that forces them to tunnel against their will.
I don't think a lot of people have an issue with one or two slowdowns when you're playing chill; or when you're playing someone like GF or Myers. I think a lot of people have issues when people stack slowdown (which is very common) and then tunnel (which is also very common). It's the exact same thing as back when Survivor would bring 4 BNP's, DS, DH, UB and whatever else and just try to win as hard as they could.
Are those things, individually, a problem? Not really. Are those things used in conjunction an issue? Yes.
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