Why won't BHVR let Killers see how many survivors are in a SWF in the lobby?

2

Comments

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,434
    edited June 5

    IMO any killer player that complains about survivor players "farming BP" in a SWF loses their right to complain about any survivor tactics whatsoever.

    the two SWF tactics I can see as being "toxic" are distinctly antithetical to getting BP - either they're gen rushing, in which case they forgo alturism and chase BP, or they're bully squads, in which case they are only aiming to get chase BP. if someone can't understand this i genuinely think they have such little understanding of the survivor gameplay loop that they cannot accurately comment on anything to do with mechanics and balance on the survivor side; either that or they are upset at survivors getting to progress their characters in any capacity which betrays a ridiculous level of bias.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,767

    The MMR is also already taking their dedicated 4-man advantages into account since they would have the higher escape rate.

    I think a lot of people miss out on this point. Yes, being a SWF will make them better than solo, so they'll win more, but the MMR will even that out by who they match against.

    There's a minor problem if a group occasionally gets together to SWF, in which case MMR wouldn't catch up with their individual games, but it's probably a pretty rare thing to run into.

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,126
    edited June 6

    Chill swf is fine. It's the ones who bring Eyrie/RPD/Gideon/Badham basement at shack with their perks tailored for the map which makes it obnoxious.

    Deleting map offerings would be a good start. There's no good reason for keeping them in their current state apart from achievements which can be reworked and don't impact the game.

  • North85
    North85 Member Posts: 111
    edited June 6

    Give Killers a toggle that lets them not queue against 2-man, 3-man, or 4-man SWFs, and give Survivors a toggle that lets them not queue against killer characters they don't want to play against.

    Everyone wins.

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    Not really, no.

    Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos. The degree of difficulty can be as small as swfs don't kill themselves on hook or play super selfishly. In solo queue, teamwork is not guaranteed.

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    You don't have a right to know if you're playing against SWFs, though. I've played against highly coordinated SWFs before as killer, and it was miserable. I've played against sabo squads, flashlight squads, bully squads, genrush squads, and it was miserable, but that doesn't mean that all swfs are like that.

    It doesn't mean that all swfs are comparable to Team Eternal, or Hens, Dan, etc. You remember negative experiences more prominently than you do positive ones. I've had games against killers where they've absolutely stomped me and my friend, and I can recognize times where we lost because of mistakes we made.

    Swfs are mostly just casual players who play with their friends. They care about winning as much as anyone else, but they don't take it to the extreme and pull out all the stops. While I can't speak for other swfs, I can tell you what perks me and my friend run.

    I run WoO, Mirrored Illusion, Botany, and Self Care. My friend runs DS, Lithe, Botany, and Self Care. We aren't glued at the hip, and we use very limited callouts. Mostly just "Killer's on me, can you get the rescue?" or "I'll get the rescue". We don't use clock callouts, and we don't actively track the killer's location. 90% of the time we're discussing things that aren't even related to dbd.

    My point is that not all SWFs are highly coordinated. Most of the time they're just casual players who can hit skill checks and do somewhat well in chase.

  • BbQz
    BbQz Member Posts: 83

    The funny part about this is that the longer you spend in que the less likely you are to get a fair match and lobby high skill level lobby dodgers are kicking SWFs to really easy matches with less skilled killers who get stomped and blame it on some unfair advantages that most of the time don't exist. While it's impossible to argue SWF isn't beneficial it isn't some sealteam 6 where map location call outs. It's normally friends playing after work shooting the #########

  • BbQz
    BbQz Member Posts: 83

    lol imagine that high MMR nurse queing with 2-3-4 swf checked off. They are gonna be waiting a long long time

  • CrackedShevaMain
    CrackedShevaMain Member Posts: 446

    The number of times I’ve been accused in end game chat of being a SWF in solo Q is hilarious. The vast majority of my solo matches are a dumpster fire. I get one match where everyone is solo or we are two singles and a duo and we actually work together, and the killer flames in chat for it. “NICE SWF BULLY SQUAD!” I laugh and say I don’t even know them and they call me a liar. People really want to desperately believe that the only reason they lose matches are due to SWF

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,480
    Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos.
    

    Seems like a problem with game balance then no?

  • Ebonbane2000
    Ebonbane2000 Member Posts: 160
  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that it has anything to do with game balance. If you go from playing against people who barely know what they're doing, to playing against people who are objectively more competent, is that something that needs fixing?

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,480

    My point is, if it is a fact that there is an advantage to playing with a SWF than without, then lets address the OP. Why can't killers get to see what they are going against so they can decide if they want to opt into a harder game simply because they are against a team on coms despite the fact that the game is CLEARLY balanced around survivors having a lack of information. Given that so many survivor perks just give you information about what your teammates are doing.

  • mangomilkshake
    mangomilkshake Member Posts: 43

    Notice the loud silence from devs.

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005

    Look up what an independent and unbiased source of information is.

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005

    Nice us vs them, but the DbD foodchain goes like this: SWFs eat killers and killers eat soloQ. So it's only natural for killers to seek shelter from the constant SWF bullying, SWFs on the other hand don't have a moral right to dodge anything since they are the kings of this game, they always win unless they decide to just goof around. But the ability to know the killer for soloQ players would indeed be fair.

  • North85
    North85 Member Posts: 111

    I guess you want to keep playing games where people ragequit half the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Only a picky player's queue times will be majorly affected, and honestly, who wants to play with them anyway?

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    Because being in a SWF doesn't guarantee a win. Having an advantage doesn't guarantee a win. The game is no longer balanced around survivors having a lack of information. Just look at the UI changes that were made to give Solo Queue more information and aid in their decision-making process.

    Why should we needlessly punish SWFs, simply because games against them are harder than they are against the mixed bag that is SoloQ?

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005

    Those are "stats" provided by BHVR in an attempt to calm down the community and prove that the game is balanced. Not a single evidence of those 43% escape rate has been provided since. In my killer games I wipe the floor with soloQ survivors and can only hope for 2 kills against SWFs, producing a few gallons of sweat in the process, but usually it's just 1k, and it correlates with experience of other killer players. Wherever they pulled that 43% escape rate from, it's nowhere near what can be observed in praxis, so until someone actually gathers stats with evidence instead of just drawing pictures with numbers, it's pointless to talk about "stats", especially about those provided by BHVR.

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005
    edited June 7

    What in fact severely imbalances the game is the ability to play on comms in a game that was designed around lack of communications, where you have whole perks that gives you information you can otherwise get for free with discord. SoloQ survivors don't even have a simplest text chat, while SWF can talk in discord. The information is the most expensive resource in this game, and SWF get it all for free, while it's impossible for soloQ survivors. The ability for killers to avoid this is just a countermeasure.

    In the hypothetical chance that killers get access to this, why wouldn't survivors be able to do the same?

    As I said, they should, but only soloQ.

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 5,551

    How do you know you're playing against a swf though? Have you considered that once you sweep the floor with enough players (and I doubt it's just solo, you can't see if they're solo afterall) you rise higher in MMR and therefore start to face more difficult opponents which makes it harder to win? That is, after all, how the game is designed. It's not designed for you to 4k every single game, and you will get harder opponents the more you win. Now you want BHVR to nerf your stronger opponents so you can compete at a level you're not up to? That doesn't make sense

    And you refuse to accept BHVRs stats, yet expect your own experience to hold more weight despite just assuming you are facing swfs?

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005
    edited June 7

    That is, after all, how the game is designed. It's not designed for you
    to 4k every single game, and you will get harder opponents the more you
    win.

    That's the point I'm talking about: when I win - it's usually against soloQ, when I lose - it's usually against SWF. We are not talking about survivor vs killer here, we are talking about SWF vs soloQ.

    Now you want BHVR to nerf your stronger opponents so you can compete at a level you're not up to? That doesn't make sense

    So you finally acknowledge that SWF are the "stronger opponent"?

    And you refuse to accept BHVRs stats, yet expect your own experience to hold more weight

    I never said anything about my own experience having more weight in general, all I said is that one should not use as an argument some unconfirmed "stats" from a clearly biased party (devs providing a few unconfirmed numbers once in 2 years showing that the game is balanced and the devs do a good job).

    Lately mostly Nurse and Wraith, but it's common for all killers I ever play: SWFs perform better than soloQ by an order of magnitude, unless they just intentionally goof around.

  • CrypticGirl
    CrypticGirl Member Posts: 650

    How do you know you're up against SWF, though? Do they tell you? That's literally the only way you would know for sure.

    I'm not sure why flashlight or sabo squads are a problem either, because they're literally handing you a free 4k. I've had teammates who are all flashlights, desperately trying to save a teammate from being hooked. Next thing I know, they're all slugged, and I'm across the map doing a gen and shaking my head.

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    SWFs do perform better than SoloQ, but it's not because of comms. The reason is that SoloQ players are only held accountable by themselves. SWFs are held accountable by their friends.

    The reason I asked about the killers you play is because you doubt the official stats released by BHVR. Over 1976 games, Wraith's kill rate according to Nightlight.gg is 59.77%.

    That's over a 28 day period from May 10 2024 - June 7 2024.

  • Senaxu
    Senaxu Member Posts: 266

    we are forced to play with other platforms too.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,826

    I'm always dubious about pulling stuff from Nightlight.

    It's player provided, which opens the door for cherry picking what they upload. Is only in English so it'll lack a global view completely, which explains perk usage differences like Self Care. Chances are players interested in posting their trials like that are likely much more competitive than the average casual players that are the bulk of the playerbase. And I highly doubt the consoles mess around with it at all, who again make up most of the playerbase. It's just a guide sorta, despite being all we got out there to look at.

  • AbsolutGrndZer0
    AbsolutGrndZer0 Member Posts: 1,432
    edited June 7

    Smite has Arena, which is supposed to be casual, in fact some of the announcer voices you can enable taunt you and say various things that amount to "Go back to Arena, you suck" when you die. So, thing is, even being the casual mode (There is no ranked arena) you still get those that are overly competitive and will scream and cuss at you if you are not the most cracked Smite player who ever lived like they think they are.

  • AbsolutGrndZer0
    AbsolutGrndZer0 Member Posts: 1,432

    The only "issue" with Skull Merchant is that players think they are entitled to dictate who the killer is and is not allowed to play. If there are actual balance issues with her, then those need to be addressed, but how can they possibly be even known if so many players DC or hook suicide without even trying to learn how to go against her?

    Same goes for The Lich now actually… Is he OP? Not at all, but nobody cares to actually learn how to play against him, they just scream "OMG I CAN'T ROFLSTOMP THE LICH LIKE I CAN THE PIG! HE'S OP! NERF HIM AND NERF THE PIG TOO FOR GOOD MEASURE!"

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    I am too, but if someone doesn't want to believe the official stats BHVR puts out and calls them unverified, then perhaps they might consider Nightlight's stats to be verified.

  • SunaIIanu
    SunaIIanu Member Posts: 824

    I think skullmerchant is fine.

    The original comment I replied too insinuated, that there must be something wrong with swf because many players don't want to play against them. That is why I brought up skullmerchant as an example of something that many people also don't want to play against, even though I think she is fine. (And I think the original commenter thinks she is fine too).

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,480

    Where in anything did i write did i say "being in a SWF guarantees a win".

    Being in a SWF statistically increases your chances of winning, period, end of story. Thus there is a clear advantage to being in a SWF vs not. So why is killer not allowed to see that before the game starts?

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,480

    So i listed 4 games where i personally play and have had positive casual experiences, and you list a completely irrelevant one?

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,833

    You didn't, nor did I say that you did. It was a statement, not meant to be interpreted as a direct response to what you were saying.

    The advantage of being in a swf is having reliable teammates. That's not something that has anything to do with game balance. SoloQ players are notorious for playing badly or selfishly, and that's not something you can really change. They're either a team player or they aren't.

    Why should killers be allowed to cherry pick their matches? Especially when there will always be a scapegoat they can blame their losses on. If it's not SWFs, it's P100's, and if it's not P100's, it's M1 Killers are too weak, and if it's not that then it'll be that survivors genrushed, so on and so forth. This isn't even unique to Dead by Daylight. It happens in every competitive PvP game.

    Swfs would either only face meta-slave killers, or they just wouldn't get matches. Killers would lobby dodge, every time. It wouldn't matter if the SWFs had 5 hours played, or 5000 hours played. They'd still be a SWF and the killer would still choose to lobby dodge.

    Sure, a system could be added that punishes killers for lobby dodging but then you're just forcing them to play against swfs anyway. The games in which they're forced to play against swfs they'd probably just afk.

    So, no, there isn't a balance issue with SWFs. There will always be outliers where you run into extremely coordinated SWFs, but most SWFs just aren't like that nor do they have any interest in it.

    I believe that sufficiently answers your question.

  • NekoGamerX
    NekoGamerX Member Posts: 5,288

    I say just tell us who in groups after the match that well the killer know why they won or lost

  • warp1die
    warp1die Member Posts: 419

    It's amazing how much survivors like to downplay their advantages. Why are survivors always afraid to call a spade a spade?

    SWF is literally an easy game mode.

    I also started playing survivor with friends around 2023, after which I felt the difference between the agony of solo. Unlike others, I at least have the courage to admit the extent of the imbalances that have SWF.

    Each game is almost always dominance over killers, where the maximum he can count on is one or two kill. The most important thing is that all we do with SWF is hold M1. Usually this is enough to win. No fancy tactics, simple repair of one generator by one person.

    I will say even more, I know how to make SWF look like ordinary solo players during the killer lobby. The killer will not even understand that he was playing with another SWF until it is too late.

    This is not an us versus them issue. Because in this game there were always three sides to the conflict. SWF, solo survivors and killers. Only two sides of the conflict could be happy in the game. Usually these are survivors with friends and killers. Solo players simply suffer for the SWF, accepting the news of the anger of the killers. The solo player is the sacrificial lamb that is sacrificed for balance.

    When were SWF and solo players happy back in 2020. We lost the old rank system.

    I just want a fair solo mode where you can play fun builds and have a chance of winning by distributing hooks. To this end, I agree to many solo player buffs in case of protecting him from camping, tunneling and slug. And so as not to offend the SWF. I'm ready to give them all the Nurses, campers and tunnelers who play the game as if their lives depended on it.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,480

    This is precisely my point i am making though.

    If it is true, that SWFS would only face meta-slave killers, or wouldn't get matches because killer would lobby dodge, would that not indicate a problem that SWF is maybe too strong?