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Why won't BHVR let Killers see how many survivors are in a SWF in the lobby?
Comments
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Seeing as how many killers constantly back out when they see 1 p100 character...yeah it's obvious why we can't have nice things, because queue times would skyrocket because some people go out of their way to avoid any sort of challenge.
It's pretty sad when you can go through 5 killers in a pre game lobby. Now imagine just trying to play with friends. And neither p100 or friends mean anything in regards to your teams difficulty level
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IMO any killer player that complains about survivor players "farming BP" in a SWF loses their right to complain about any survivor tactics whatsoever.
the two SWF tactics I can see as being "toxic" are distinctly antithetical to getting BP - either they're gen rushing, in which case they forgo alturism and chase BP, or they're bully squads, in which case they are only aiming to get chase BP. if someone can't understand this i genuinely think they have such little understanding of the survivor gameplay loop that they cannot accurately comment on anything to do with mechanics and balance on the survivor side; either that or they are upset at survivors getting to progress their characters in any capacity which betrays a ridiculous level of bias.
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Imagine if we flipped it and let survivors see the killer. Nurse, Cenobite, Merchant, Blight, Trickster, and Knight players would never get to play the game ever again.
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luckily bhvr isn’t gonna kill their game to cater to you
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The MMR is also already taking their dedicated 4-man advantages into account since they would have the higher escape rate.I think a lot of people miss out on this point. Yes, being a SWF will make them better than solo, so they'll win more, but the MMR will even that out by who they match against.
There's a minor problem if a group occasionally gets together to SWF, in which case MMR wouldn't catch up with their individual games, but it's probably a pretty rare thing to run into.
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There are times you stomp swf without realizing, I can see it now even if they implemented the ability to see whos a group, these salty kids finding a way to still accuse you of being a swf even though the game says you're not, there would be posts complaining the first day saying survivors are somehow a swf when they're not showing up as one because even if you put the evidence right under their nose of why they lost a match they'll point to anything else but the actual problem and blame that instead, it will never change.
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Let's just call this for what it is: You want to win even more than you already are, which is very likely to be the majority of your games. This isn't about balance or one side being OP. The times the SWF's have mopped the floor with you they likely also played better than you (along with probably some other advantages, but both sides can bring OP stuff).
Getting sick of people wanting to ruin this game because they grow pissy over the occasional bad losses.
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Chill swf is fine. It's the ones who bring Eyrie/RPD/Gideon/Badham basement at shack with their perks tailored for the map which makes it obnoxious.
Deleting map offerings would be a good start. There's no good reason for keeping them in their current state apart from achievements which can be reworked and don't impact the game.
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Give Killers a toggle that lets them not queue against 2-man, 3-man, or 4-man SWFs, and give Survivors a toggle that lets them not queue against killer characters they don't want to play against.
Everyone wins.
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Not really, no.
Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos. The degree of difficulty can be as small as swfs don't kill themselves on hook or play super selfishly. In solo queue, teamwork is not guaranteed.
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^ this.
And we can even make it that Survivors cannot change their Build, because this seems to be a common thing which is mentioned. But I can guarantee you that Killers would not be happy either, since they suddenly would not find games anymore with the Killers you mentioned.
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You don't have a right to know if you're playing against SWFs, though. I've played against highly coordinated SWFs before as killer, and it was miserable. I've played against sabo squads, flashlight squads, bully squads, genrush squads, and it was miserable, but that doesn't mean that all swfs are like that.
It doesn't mean that all swfs are comparable to Team Eternal, or Hens, Dan, etc. You remember negative experiences more prominently than you do positive ones. I've had games against killers where they've absolutely stomped me and my friend, and I can recognize times where we lost because of mistakes we made.
Swfs are mostly just casual players who play with their friends. They care about winning as much as anyone else, but they don't take it to the extreme and pull out all the stops. While I can't speak for other swfs, I can tell you what perks me and my friend run.
I run WoO, Mirrored Illusion, Botany, and Self Care. My friend runs DS, Lithe, Botany, and Self Care. We aren't glued at the hip, and we use very limited callouts. Mostly just "Killer's on me, can you get the rescue?" or "I'll get the rescue". We don't use clock callouts, and we don't actively track the killer's location. 90% of the time we're discussing things that aren't even related to dbd.
My point is that not all SWFs are highly coordinated. Most of the time they're just casual players who can hit skill checks and do somewhat well in chase.
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The funny part about this is that the longer you spend in que the less likely you are to get a fair match and lobby high skill level lobby dodgers are kicking SWFs to really easy matches with less skilled killers who get stomped and blame it on some unfair advantages that most of the time don't exist. While it's impossible to argue SWF isn't beneficial it isn't some sealteam 6 where map location call outs. It's normally friends playing after work shooting the #########
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Or literally noone ever plays a single game.
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lol imagine that high MMR nurse queing with 2-3-4 swf checked off. They are gonna be waiting a long long time
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The number of times I’ve been accused in end game chat of being a SWF in solo Q is hilarious. The vast majority of my solo matches are a dumpster fire. I get one match where everyone is solo or we are two singles and a duo and we actually work together, and the killer flames in chat for it. “NICE SWF BULLY SQUAD!” I laugh and say I don’t even know them and they call me a liar. People really want to desperately believe that the only reason they lose matches are due to SWF
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Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos.
Seems like a problem with game balance then no?
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Actually this would improve soloQ quite a bit, lol.
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I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that it has anything to do with game balance. If you go from playing against people who barely know what they're doing, to playing against people who are objectively more competent, is that something that needs fixing?
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And increasing MMR
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My point is, if it is a fact that there is an advantage to playing with a SWF than without, then lets address the OP. Why can't killers get to see what they are going against so they can decide if they want to opt into a harder game simply because they are against a team on coms despite the fact that the game is CLEARLY balanced around survivors having a lack of information. Given that so many survivor perks just give you information about what your teammates are doing.
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Notice the loud silence from devs.
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Most importantly, the Killers do not have the power to get 4K against SWF.
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Look up what an independent and unbiased source of information is.
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So…Now killers are just saying the quiet part out loud.
"Let us freely lobby dodge because there's a SWF in my vicinity and I'm terrified."
So, I'll answer your question with a question; Why aren't survivors allowed to see what killer they'll be going up against? Y'know…so we can avoid having to deal with someone extremely frustrating to face.
If your immediate thought was "Because that'd be unfair?" or "Because any self-respecting survivor would leave the match immediately."
You just answered your own question.6 -
Nice us vs them, but the DbD foodchain goes like this: SWFs eat killers and killers eat soloQ. So it's only natural for killers to seek shelter from the constant SWF bullying, SWFs on the other hand don't have a moral right to dodge anything since they are the kings of this game, they always win unless they decide to just goof around. But the ability to know the killer for soloQ players would indeed be fair.
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I guess you want to keep playing games where people ragequit half the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Only a picky player's queue times will be majorly affected, and honestly, who wants to play with them anyway?
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Because being in a SWF doesn't guarantee a win. Having an advantage doesn't guarantee a win. The game is no longer balanced around survivors having a lack of information. Just look at the UI changes that were made to give Solo Queue more information and aid in their decision-making process.
Why should we needlessly punish SWFs, simply because games against them are harder than they are against the mixed bag that is SoloQ?
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SWFs eat killers is the past. Avergae 4 players SWF is 43% escape rate, top MMR is 48% escape rate.
Only good SWFs eat average killers, happens quite often because how hard average killers try to climb to high MMR.
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This is FAR from a Us vs them.
The OP made a post and was met with extreme backlash of obvious answers.
Not every SWF will come out with 4 man escape, not every SWF will survive because they're just THAT good. Their odds of winning is tantamount to the odds of the killer managing to get hooks.
Both of you unable to realize that no one here holds a right to anything.
Morality has no play nor foothold in this topic of conversation since what the OP is asking for is to freely gain information on survivors without consequence AND be able to freely lobby dodge without consequence.In the hypothetical chance that killers get access to this, why wouldn't survivors be able to do the same? Killers getting any access to knowing which survivors are in a SWF and which are in soloq would merely make things worse and SEVERELY imbalance the game.
Post edited by EQWashu on6 -
Those are "stats" provided by BHVR in an attempt to calm down the community and prove that the game is balanced. Not a single evidence of those 43% escape rate has been provided since. In my killer games I wipe the floor with soloQ survivors and can only hope for 2 kills against SWFs, producing a few gallons of sweat in the process, but usually it's just 1k, and it correlates with experience of other killer players. Wherever they pulled that 43% escape rate from, it's nowhere near what can be observed in praxis, so until someone actually gathers stats with evidence instead of just drawing pictures with numbers, it's pointless to talk about "stats", especially about those provided by BHVR.
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What in fact severely imbalances the game is the ability to play on comms in a game that was designed around lack of communications, where you have whole perks that gives you information you can otherwise get for free with discord. SoloQ survivors don't even have a simplest text chat, while SWF can talk in discord. The information is the most expensive resource in this game, and SWF get it all for free, while it's impossible for soloQ survivors. The ability for killers to avoid this is just a countermeasure.
In the hypothetical chance that killers get access to this, why wouldn't survivors be able to do the same?
As I said, they should, but only soloQ.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
How do you know you're playing against a swf though? Have you considered that once you sweep the floor with enough players (and I doubt it's just solo, you can't see if they're solo afterall) you rise higher in MMR and therefore start to face more difficult opponents which makes it harder to win? That is, after all, how the game is designed. It's not designed for you to 4k every single game, and you will get harder opponents the more you win. Now you want BHVR to nerf your stronger opponents so you can compete at a level you're not up to? That doesn't make sense
And you refuse to accept BHVRs stats, yet expect your own experience to hold more weight despite just assuming you are facing swfs?
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What killer do you play?
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That is, after all, how the game is designed. It's not designed for you
to 4k every single game, and you will get harder opponents the more you
win.That's the point I'm talking about: when I win - it's usually against soloQ, when I lose - it's usually against SWF. We are not talking about survivor vs killer here, we are talking about SWF vs soloQ.
Now you want BHVR to nerf your stronger opponents so you can compete at a level you're not up to? That doesn't make sense
So you finally acknowledge that SWF are the "stronger opponent"?
And you refuse to accept BHVRs stats, yet expect your own experience to hold more weight
I never said anything about my own experience having more weight in general, all I said is that one should not use as an argument some unconfirmed "stats" from a clearly biased party (devs providing a few unconfirmed numbers once in 2 years showing that the game is balanced and the devs do a good job).
Lately mostly Nurse and Wraith, but it's common for all killers I ever play: SWFs perform better than soloQ by an order of magnitude, unless they just intentionally goof around.
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How do you know you're up against SWF, though? Do they tell you? That's literally the only way you would know for sure.
I'm not sure why flashlight or sabo squads are a problem either, because they're literally handing you a free 4k. I've had teammates who are all flashlights, desperately trying to save a teammate from being hooked. Next thing I know, they're all slugged, and I'm across the map doing a gen and shaking my head.
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SWFs do perform better than SoloQ, but it's not because of comms. The reason is that SoloQ players are only held accountable by themselves. SWFs are held accountable by their friends.
The reason I asked about the killers you play is because you doubt the official stats released by BHVR. Over 1976 games, Wraith's kill rate according to Nightlight.gg is 59.77%.
That's over a 28 day period from May 10 2024 - June 7 2024.
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we are forced to play with other platforms too.
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What does that matter?
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I'm always dubious about pulling stuff from Nightlight.
It's player provided, which opens the door for cherry picking what they upload. Is only in English so it'll lack a global view completely, which explains perk usage differences like Self Care. Chances are players interested in posting their trials like that are likely much more competitive than the average casual players that are the bulk of the playerbase. And I highly doubt the consoles mess around with it at all, who again make up most of the playerbase. It's just a guide sorta, despite being all we got out there to look at.
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Smite has Arena, which is supposed to be casual, in fact some of the announcer voices you can enable taunt you and say various things that amount to "Go back to Arena, you suck" when you die. So, thing is, even being the casual mode (There is no ranked arena) you still get those that are overly competitive and will scream and cuss at you if you are not the most cracked Smite player who ever lived like they think they are.
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The only "issue" with Skull Merchant is that players think they are entitled to dictate who the killer is and is not allowed to play. If there are actual balance issues with her, then those need to be addressed, but how can they possibly be even known if so many players DC or hook suicide without even trying to learn how to go against her?
Same goes for The Lich now actually… Is he OP? Not at all, but nobody cares to actually learn how to play against him, they just scream "OMG I CAN'T ROFLSTOMP THE LICH LIKE I CAN THE PIG! HE'S OP! NERF HIM AND NERF THE PIG TOO FOR GOOD MEASURE!"0 -
I am too, but if someone doesn't want to believe the official stats BHVR puts out and calls them unverified, then perhaps they might consider Nightlight's stats to be verified.
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I think skullmerchant is fine.
The original comment I replied too insinuated, that there must be something wrong with swf because many players don't want to play against them. That is why I brought up skullmerchant as an example of something that many people also don't want to play against, even though I think she is fine. (And I think the original commenter thinks she is fine too).
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Where in anything did i write did i say "being in a SWF guarantees a win".
Being in a SWF statistically increases your chances of winning, period, end of story. Thus there is a clear advantage to being in a SWF vs not. So why is killer not allowed to see that before the game starts?
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So i listed 4 games where i personally play and have had positive casual experiences, and you list a completely irrelevant one?
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You didn't, nor did I say that you did. It was a statement, not meant to be interpreted as a direct response to what you were saying.
The advantage of being in a swf is having reliable teammates. That's not something that has anything to do with game balance. SoloQ players are notorious for playing badly or selfishly, and that's not something you can really change. They're either a team player or they aren't.
Why should killers be allowed to cherry pick their matches? Especially when there will always be a scapegoat they can blame their losses on. If it's not SWFs, it's P100's, and if it's not P100's, it's M1 Killers are too weak, and if it's not that then it'll be that survivors genrushed, so on and so forth. This isn't even unique to Dead by Daylight. It happens in every competitive PvP game.
Swfs would either only face meta-slave killers, or they just wouldn't get matches. Killers would lobby dodge, every time. It wouldn't matter if the SWFs had 5 hours played, or 5000 hours played. They'd still be a SWF and the killer would still choose to lobby dodge.
Sure, a system could be added that punishes killers for lobby dodging but then you're just forcing them to play against swfs anyway. The games in which they're forced to play against swfs they'd probably just afk.
So, no, there isn't a balance issue with SWFs. There will always be outliers where you run into extremely coordinated SWFs, but most SWFs just aren't like that nor do they have any interest in it.
I believe that sufficiently answers your question.
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I say just tell us who in groups after the match that well the killer know why they won or lost
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It's amazing how much survivors like to downplay their advantages. Why are survivors always afraid to call a spade a spade?
SWF is literally an easy game mode.
I also started playing survivor with friends around 2023, after which I felt the difference between the agony of solo. Unlike others, I at least have the courage to admit the extent of the imbalances that have SWF.
Each game is almost always dominance over killers, where the maximum he can count on is one or two kill. The most important thing is that all we do with SWF is hold M1. Usually this is enough to win. No fancy tactics, simple repair of one generator by one person.
I will say even more, I know how to make SWF look like ordinary solo players during the killer lobby. The killer will not even understand that he was playing with another SWF until it is too late.
This is not an us versus them issue. Because in this game there were always three sides to the conflict. SWF, solo survivors and killers. Only two sides of the conflict could be happy in the game. Usually these are survivors with friends and killers. Solo players simply suffer for the SWF, accepting the news of the anger of the killers. The solo player is the sacrificial lamb that is sacrificed for balance.
When were SWF and solo players happy back in 2020. We lost the old rank system.
I just want a fair solo mode where you can play fun builds and have a chance of winning by distributing hooks. To this end, I agree to many solo player buffs in case of protecting him from camping, tunneling and slug. And so as not to offend the SWF. I'm ready to give them all the Nurses, campers and tunnelers who play the game as if their lives depended on it.
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This is precisely my point i am making though.
If it is true, that SWFS would only face meta-slave killers, or wouldn't get matches because killer would lobby dodge, would that not indicate a problem that SWF is maybe too strong?
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