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Fixing Borrowed Time Idea
Since the perk is almost useless give this perk a 3 second window of double hit endurance. This will make it worth it since killers tend to hit right after the hook making its endurance effect useless. This would make it worthy to trade hook against killers like bubba and executioner.
Comments
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BT is still a great perk just overshadowed by others
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i'd just make it grant borrow time to person unhooking as well.
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Pretty sure it use to work like this and killers cried until it got removed. Survivors are not allowed to have good perks, once you learn that, the games not so bad.
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Hell no, this would get abused so much.
Besides, if they did this, it would only make tunneling more appealing again since it wouldnt matter after who you go, especially if they just insta unhook in your face.9 -
Look If I had to put this perk in a BAD-GOOD-GREAT scale I would put BT in between bad and good to be honest and I don't believe its a great perk. Great perks in my opinion are perks that can give you good/great benefits on their own. Good perks are perks that give you little/good benefit when paired with other perks or on their own. Bad perks are the ones that give you little/no benefit on their own or with the assist of other perks. The only thing that can nerf a Great perk is make it situational and I believe that if this is added it will make it a great perk that's very situational.
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Nah I think this would cause more tunneling
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idk, 20 second of BT bodyblocking sounds like it might protect the person being tunneled.
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how can you tunnel the unhooker? If the unhooker had bt as well, we could just go for the unhooked again.
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Maybe just increase the haste effect, currently it makes it so the haste effect lasts double the time, maybe it could give 15% instead of 10% allowing you to get more distance before the killer is able to catch up.
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what if unhooked person gets 10% extended haste for 60 seconds instead of 10 seconds? unhooker get endurance for 10. seconds. I think it would be good anti-tunnel perk and counter hook-trading/camping vs non-specialized camping killers.
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They're interesting ideas to balance the perk but I don't think that having both effects is that healthy for the game.
Still, the 60 second haste sounds reasonable
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why? do you think hook trading is healthy gameplay? Is it fair for killers like Legion and Plague to injure everyone then camp a hook on first down? Shouldn't there be counters/risk's attached to each associated play?
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sounds good but what about blights, nurses, huntress. Killers that can catch up or instant down from range?
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And where would the risk be in a perk that gives both, unhooker and unhooked a free hit, the unhooked 60 seconds 10% haste?
There is a reason BT got changed from the double protection.
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So the same speed as 115% and FASTER than the 110 ones?
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I personally think your take should definitely be considered but not as part of BT maybe a new perk similar to some of the things you mentioned
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You still have endurance for some time and during that time you should be able to reach a tile to loop... If you get hit immediately OTR also does not help you much, if it is about the endurance not working then that perk would also need a buff.
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I'm not really understanding a lot of the points raised here: -
Saying BT is useless because the killer immediately hits the survivor off hook is untrue. You get a 165% speed boost plus the post hook 10% boost for 20s....how much do you need to make a tile?
This would be broken, you can just run under the killers nose to trade for free with no penalty, even after the gates are powered.
Borrowed Time is a great perk. There are no clues that it's in effect other than the speed remaining after 10s, which is hard to spot so even veteran killers fall for it. It's subtlety is where its power lies.
It allows you to be much more aggressive with unhooks, taking decisions and options you would otherwise be punished for; this is what makes the perk consistent.
To break that down more:
It works very well in the rush to the gate at end game, and getting an unhook with Borrowed Time is basically a guaranteed out for the unhooked player. This is one of the few reliable effects available off hook when the gates open. If the killer hasn't worked out BT is in effect yet, they can pursue the BT player to wait our the basekit endurance, which can lead to a free out for the whole team. Combined with Desperate Measures, it works great at coordinating an unhook at end game, and even during the trial this combo can allow you to make trades with a good chance of both of you getting away to a tile.
BT also allows you to take much riskier heals under hook because you can actually finish the heal before the endurance effect ends, meaning you can get both you and the unhook survivor back in the game sooner if the killer doesn't stop you, and if they do try to stop you, you haven't just given your teammate a death sentence.
Even if the killer doesn't tunnel the unhooker, the 10% haste helps the survivor get to another survivor/gen sooner, so if you trade and get chased yourself, your ally is getting back in the fray faster than they would do otherwise.
I'm not sure why everyone is treating BT like its bad. It's a solid perk, with a very good niche. It's not overpowered, and it's certainly not weak. It's got a good set of nuanced uses that you can exploit to get consistent value.
It's one of my favourite perks. In fact, the only reason I don't run it more is my teammates are often allergic to generators and will swarm for unhooks like moths to a flame... even if I am obviously in a better position/healthier state to unhook.
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Honestly considering that people wait until 11 seconds to hit where they wouldn't notice that BT's in effect by that point so you usually get value when people are tunneling and it's the only anti tunnel perk that works in endgame, and that 20 seconds of haste and 11 seconds of Endurance plus an on-hit boost is enough to get if not the exit gate then enough time and distance for a bodyblock, BT is severely underrated and I'd still say it's one of the best Survivor perks rn. It's a very effective anti-tunnel perk, it's just one you use to prevent others from tunneling rather than yourself.
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I would rather prefer if BT would grant something else instead of Endurance. The problem why the Anti-Tunneling measurements are quite weak is simply because all resolve around Endurance. So a single hit by a proxy-camping Killer after the Unhook will remove:
- Basekit Endurance
- Potential Off the Record
- Potential Borrowed Time
- The ability to use Dead Hard
This is just too much for a single M1-Hit, especially if a Perk like Off the Record is clearly designed to combat tunneling, but you wont get the 80 seconds at all, you get as much as the Killer allows you to have.
The only thing BT has currently going for it:
- Works in Endgame
- Killers usually dont wait out BT if they realize the Survivor does not have OTR, so they hit after 10 seconds, which will then trigger BT and surprises them
I think giving BT something else than Endurance would be nice, so that even if the Killer hits the Survivor off the Hook, they can have another status effect which might help them. Maybe even buff the Duration of BT to 30 seconds, since it is a purely altruistic Perk anyway (and should stay that way, so BT for both is not the way to go IMO, even tho it would Unhooks against camping Killers way better).
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The change surely buffed proxy camping and tunneling.
How is everyone surprised that tunneling is popular, Pikachu face? If one player is closer to death hook and difficulty of unhooked person is same difficulty as unhooker, Why wouldn't the killer go after the unhooked person? When the difficulty to end chase is higher for unhooked person, there is more of risk to tunneling.
comments like that show that tunneling and proxy-camping will likely never change. Otz made a video about tunneling at point. Something clever that he said is that whatever dev do change in regards to tunneling will be controversial change.
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The point is to avoid losing the endurance effect as soon as you are unhooked. Making it to a tile was never an issue the double endurance isn't meant to extend the timer or give you an extra speed boost after getting hit for the second time. Basically just a ONE hit immortality window of 3 seconds after hook. In other words I never considered the lasting effect of the perk, it can be capped on 10 seconds just like a base unhook or maybe it can stay as 10 extra seconds but less haste speed.
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The thing with off the record is that it gives you many more different benefits besides the endurance hit, that's why I didn't even bother mentioning it.
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That's true, and camping and tunneling should always be a threat of the game. Unhooking should be something you have to consider what the killer is doing before you do it. It has to contain an element of risk in order for the interaction to be meaningful.
The number of times I've seen a survivor unhook literally within 10 seconds, and it's basically a free invitation to tunnel. It's a bad decision, and if you try to remove camping/tunnelling completely, this becomes the default interaction... dumb because its free.
With tunnelling and camping still an option in the game, survivors have to play aroundwhat the killer is doing. When survivors are working efficiently they can really heavily punish camping and tunneling. A 50 seconds camp with a last minute save, and trying to tunnel through OTR/BT and Decisive Strike, followed by another 50s camp and OTR/BT again buys survivors a LOT of time. Good survivors will cost the killer at least 3, maybe even 4 generators over that time, and the better the tunneled the survivor is, can completely cost the killer the game vs. Splitting pressure.
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I suppose my response to this is that tunnelling has to be a possibility in the game. Arguments for making it less viable are valid, but I am against removing it completely due to the point I raised above.
If you make it impossible to tunnel, you make it so survivor just unhook each other for free, without any consideration for where the Killer is, or what the killer is doing.
There is a trade off for camping and tunneling, you are not exerting pressure on generators. That trade off is you are betting you can kill 1 survivor off before the other survivors finish enough gens to snowball the game into a teamwide escape.
Why does camping and tunneling often work? Cause solo Q aren't on comms, and don't know that an ally is waiting out the sacrifice timer to buy more time for the team, so they don't crank gens efficiently to put the pressure on the killer. This is why SWFs are so much harder to deal with. Their comms affords them the ability to put the pressure back on the killer. SoloQ players can do this, and good soloQ players will punish a camper, but it takes a certain amount of trust in your teammates to achieve.
So the basic premise of trying to punish tunneling hard is flawed, because if survivors played their cards as well as they possibly could, tunnelling is absolutely counterable... but while soloQ can't coordinate to SWF level, tunneling will always be effective... and I can't think of a good way to change that.
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It has to contain an element of risk in order for the interaction to be meaningful.
Isn't that entire issue? By making unhooking a risk, you are making the entire game about unhooking and cheesing unhooks for the killer rather than making the game about being good at chase, pressuring gens/kicking gens, going after different survivors etc. If you played any Chaos shuffle, You saw the game as bare-bones and the overwhelming popularity of proxy-camping and tunneling.
With tunnelling and camping still an option in the game, survivors have to play aroundwhat the killer is doing.
What do you mean by play around it? The killer that proxy-camp and tunnel strategically do so with intention. It is killer that decides how much tunneling or camping is taking place in a match. Not you as the survivor.
It's a bad decision, and if you try to remove camping/tunnelling completely, this becomes the default interaction... dumb because its free.
Sounds your opposed to having more chases as killer. Perhaps it takes too much skill to pressure the map and go for 10+ hooks. Proxy-camping and Tunneling is easier. The current base-kit tool-kit for killer gives crap rewards for pressuring the entire team and only rewards the killer for playing as direct as possible.
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I agree with you camping/tunneling should be part of the game but I'm just talking about BT itself with the change I'm trying to offer it can easily be play around. The whole point is that the killer doesn't get a two birds with one stone scenario. That's why I mentioned a bubba or executioner trade.
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No, giving both endurance is a terrible idea that would get abused so hard.
I wouldnt mind giving the unhooked person more haste for longer and maybe even at a greater value but also buffing the unhooker is such a unhealthy idea.
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i feel like your idea would be better for a potential new perk in my opinion
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While you are correct and the removal of grunts of pain and the blocked Aura Read are nice, they do nothing when you get tunneled, since the Killer has line of sight or at least other visual methods to follow you (scratchmarks, Pools of Blood).
When I used OTR (and I find it one of the most overrated Perks after using it), I got benefit from the Aura Blocking from time to time, but IMO if someone wants that, Distortion is the better pick.
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I think OTR main value is 100% iron will. really strong vs tunneling spirits in my experience. Aura reading blocking can also help with tunneling on aura perks(Ultimate weapon was a good counter to this before it got killed). The other use case is when a killer is bodyblocking you from the basement. They have to hit you. they can't bodyblock like you can with default BT.
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Isn't that entire issue? By making unhooking a risk, you are making the entire game about unhooking and cheesing unhooks for the killer rather than making the game about being good at chase
Yes, because believe it or not, some people don't want to be in chase. Some people like to be stealthy and stay out of sight, some people like to be tactical and focus on fast healing or gen progression. You can't force everyone to play the game how you want to play by continually tying people's hands until that's the only option.
This is a horror game, not online Tag. Being sneaky and/or trying to control objectives, both as survivor and killer is a perfectly reasonable strategy. Being good at chase is the optimal way to play the game for both sides, but it isn't the only way to play, and neither you or me get to dictate how everyone must play the game.
Do I like camping? No, I've always hated in every game I've ever pmayed, and usually I've made a point of killing campers above everyone else, but I'm not gonna then suggest you add a mechanic in Counter Strike to drop a grenade under the feet of someone who doesn't move within a certain timeframe just cause I want everyone to be running and gunning because that is what I personally find fun.
What do you mean by play around it? The killer that proxy-camp and tunnel strategically do so with intention. It is killer that decides how much tunneling or camping is taking place in a match. Not you as the survivor.
Yes exactly, the killer is creating an obstacle to overcome. Being singled out is not fun, but it is the job of the killer to kill you and everyone in the match. I don't like being camped and tunneled just as much as anyone else, but the threat it might happen needs to exist in order for the saving someone off hook to be a meaningful action in the game, otherwise it's just a formality with no brain engagement whatsoever.
Is there enough counterplay around camping an tunneling? That's a different debate, but I feel like with tbe introduction of the AFC, basekit BT, and a number of anti camp/anti tunnel perks being made decently strong, there is. The fact that Chaos Shuffle shows what happens when those perks aren't available indicates the perk line up of anti-camp/tunnel is reasonably healthy.
Sounds your opposed to having more chases as killer. Perhaps it takes too much skill to pressure the map and go for 10+ hooks.
I'm not against chases at all, I like chases, but it's not the only gameplay experience I prize within the game. It's probably why I don't hate Skull Merchant or Artist like everyone else does. I don't subscribe to the notion that every killer needs to be chase oriented and play like Hillbilly, Blight, Wesker, Oni or Spirit. That's why I pushed back hard when people tried to nuke Pig headtraps and buff her dash up the wazoo. She isn't supposed to function like a fast chase killer, she has weak chase compensated by the insane macro she can exert.
Camping and tunneling is effective, if you feel it's too effective, I'm happy to explore that with you. Though especially with the gen slowdown being nerfed recently, I'm in the camp that spreading pressure and trying to keep as many survivors as busy as possible, trying to reset and make saves, is more effective than placing the game on a coin flip of how fast you can camp and tunnel 1 player out, hoping they don't have anti tunnel perks.
Fundamentally I'm against the notion of trying to remove tunneling and camping from the game. The killer is a human, not a bot, and shoudl have their own agency. The AFC and BT changes were great changes that made these strategies much more interactive, without outright nuking the strategy; giving effective counterplay windows around those strategies.
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Giving your teammate 20s of basekit bt/haste without worrying if they have OTR is very strong. 10s of basekit bt in a deadzone means killer can just wait it out. BT gets people more distance & more protection very good for endgame saves and in general.
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With base endurance/haste there is little to no meaning for the perk. Adding extra time to that does nothing when facing killers like a bubba or executioner that's waiting to m2. We can even add nurse you're not making any distance. As I've stated above I never once mentioned anything about the timer it should have. 10 sec 15 sec 20 sec…? That is something else to talk about maybe the total timer can be lowered. The only timer I talked about was a 3 second window of being able to take 2 hits once those 3 seconds are up its a regular base endurance.
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