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Did they kill Pop?
I feel like 20% of CURRENT progression is very bad, with the new pop the max theoretical time you could save is 18 seconds as opposed to 27 seconds pre-nerf. Now assuming you kick a gen that is at 50% progress it only loses 9 seconds now as opposed to 13.5 seconds pre-nerf, the disparity only gets worse the higher progress the generator is. Mind you they made this exact change to pop in the past before and ended up having to buff it since it turned out to be too weak.
I think the replacement to pop will turn out to be eruption, it has a flat TOTAL progress reduction of 10% which means in the worst case that you only kick one gen you will get 9 seconds of regression, now if at least 2 gens are kicked youll be getting the same total regression as applying the new pop on a 99.9% gen with the benefit of not having to travel to the gen and apply pop + also getting some information in the form of aura read/scream.
Overall though, this pop change is going to drastically change mid-low tier killers while barely changing anything with nurse/blight/spirit/billy. I unfortunately think this will lead to more killer players tunneling & slugging with said killers as they are not rewarded for chasing with mid-low tier killers. Let me know your thoughts and I'm open to any discussion :)
Comments
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Yes Pop is dead. It was literally how it is right now over a year ago and nobody used it so they buffed it back up to 30%
Then people complained and it got nerfed again. Go read the change log on the wiki lol, it’s bananas
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Nah, Pop is still pretty good. I'm still using it at least.
People were tunneling and slugging like there's no tomorrow even with the maximum amount of slowdown you could stack, so I don't really agree with the argument that a nerf will make people tunnel and slug more.
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In my experience it still good on high mobility/teleportation killers. Definitely took a hard nerf but still a pretty good perk
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My point was that it will now be more prevalent as you could use pop+pain res to regress gens, thus give you more time to commit to chases with multiple people and not have to leave them as slugs, but with these nerfs in my opinion I think they have indirectly encouraged tunneling as there is no better way to get pressure than to force a 3vs1. Obviously there will always be people that will tunnel and slug no matter what but the point is that BHVR has made it even more lucrative than ever.
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Yes, nerfing regression without nerfing gen speed meta (deja vu, PT, resilience toolboxes every game) is a stupid choice
Pop is not "dead" but definitely weak
It mostly nerf low tier killers and dont change a thing about top tier killers, as always. Now playing a regular low tier is even harder cos gens fly
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It works well with gen kick builds but won't carry like in it's meta days.
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You can use something like nowhere to hide + eruption + pop for decent results.
Pop is way weaker than it used to be and it's definitely not good enough as solo perk regression in my opinion.
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It's alright.
You do get that 5% total regression from the kick, so I do think that helps it.
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I guess they want multiple slowdown to not be the meta, but even with the nerfs I'm guessing multiple slowdown will still be the meta, that's just how strong slowdown is. Pop was run a little at 20% but only on certain killers in certain builds, it's no longer always good to run.
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Pop's not amazing right now. They should rebuff it to 25% and leave it alone, it was fine at 30% before the genkick buff and will be fine at 25% with it. It's not a good all-rounder pick anymore and the change sadly only really hits the Killers that needed it the hardest of all, all because it could be stacked.
This is why meta, all meta, needs toning down. It was done for Killers. Now it's time to do it for Survivor meta as well, we got Adren but that isn't enough. Nothing should be so strong it's "the obvious choice or you're throwing" and nothing should be so strong it turns the tide of a lost game in your favor SHARPLY just by existing.
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Pop Is not good anymore. Buff it back.
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The hesitation regarding the PoP adjustments can only mean that BhVR has not kept track of what adjustments they have made and how much they have been used in the past. Why revert to figures from a time when they were not used at all in the past?
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i didn't use it before it got buffed to 30%, and i'm now dropping it again. it was the only slowdown (or paired with oppression) in most of my loadouts, i will have to work on my builds once i hop on during anniversary. maybe i adapt to slugging playstyle even further with this; no good regression perk to interest me in hooking, no ds, no otr, no dh, no annoying bs.
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Dont know about you, but half the matches I see still have people using Pop + Pain Res and STILL winning matches.
Doesn't look dead to me but if (And keyword, IF) killers complain about it being too weak; i wouldn't be surprised.1 -
Because there are no other slowdown lok options, we have no choice but to take some of the ones that have been weakened by the most recent adjustments: Surge and Eruption are still hard to use because they are still punished by the 3gen system, and Undying & Ruin are disabled in the first 30 seconds of the game.You cannot take them with you because of the risk.
Again, many players just use them because they have no other decent slowdown options, so they have no choice. Especially if you try to use M1 Killer now, you will be out of the gate in no time without slowdown.
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If you think "winning" has any real meaning in a perk being good or not, you really have no idea about the game
You can literally "win" with no perks, it's just that SBMM not working properly
With your logic, no mither is not dead or meme because people use it and escape
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You guys already killed the entire survivor meta a long time ago. There's not much left to nerf. Pop is much stronger than it was the last time it was at 20 because of the changes to gen kicking and the nerf to gen tapping. You get more basekit regression with each kick and you will get even more regression after the kick since survivors can't tap gens anymore.
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I prefer ruin and surge atm.
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89 - 4.5 = 84.5 ; 84.5 * .2 = 16.9 + 4.5 = 21.4 charges deducted, nearly 24% total progress removed from a generator with 99% progress. (29.85 charges or almost 33% total progress removed with old Pop.)45 - 4.5 = 40.5 ; 40.5 * .2 = 8.1 + 4.5 = 12.6 charges deducted, exactly 14% total progress removed from a generator with 50% progress. (16.65 charges or almost 18% total progress removed with old Pop.)I'm sorry, but where are you getting these numbers from?
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It's bad, but it's also sadly still one of the better options for regression.
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The difference between your numbers and mine are that I ignored the base kit kick effect, since it is not a part of pop as a perk and can be applied to any gen kick perk, if you remove the base kit kick % from your numbers they are nearly identical to mine.
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No it wasn't like this before. They've added 5% of total gen progress to base kit since then.
Right now, this perk is doing 20% of current and 5% of total in one regression event. That's not at all what it did before.
They're slowly making the pre-6.1.0 pop base kit, and losing the weaker current gen progress of the perk as compensation. Ignoring the base kit buffs here is why people are misunderstanding the reason the perk is getting nerfed.
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Pop was a high tier killer perk. Killer like trapper or pig rarely used the perk effectively. They dont have the time or the mobility to do this. On those killers surge is way better.
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If a Gen has 30sec progression
- Old pop cut 9sec + 2.5sec from kick = 11.5sec
- New pop cut 6sec + 5sec from kick = 11sec
If a Gen has 60sec progression
- Old pop cut 18sec + 2.5sec from kick = 21.5sec
- New pop cut 12sec + 5sec from kick = 17sec
Its definitely not death, its just killer used to 30% cut + new 5sec from kick.
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I don't think Surge is that good for Pig, because it doesn't work on ambush...
It's valid for Trapper.
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Kick is 5%, not 5 seconds, right?
So it's 4.5 and used to be 2.25
99% gens used to be 28.65 and is now 22.3
Kinda misleading to stop your calculation at 60%, no? Because of it's current, the more progress the bigger difference.
Pop is not good enough as solo perk, you just need to combine it with something else. Preferably not pain res, because both got worse and have same trigger, which can be an issue.
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It is. Because you play m1 killer with Pig and combine with Stbfl. Funnily enough, the buff to her ambush is only coming into effect, when the survivor allows it, meaning they don't pre drop the pallet. If they just leave when you crouch, you need two specific addons to be able to get a hit. Without them, you will not reach them in a straight line.
Therefore, you mainly still play m1 killer, making surge the best perk for her. Don't get me wrong, you do get downs with the ambush. Buts it's not like Demo or Wesker, where you get the majority of downs with your power. You get a majority of downs with m1.
On top of that, surge has incredible synergy with Stbfl, which I still consider her best perk despite the nerf.
Last but not least, Pig is a killer with no map mobility. Therefore she has no time to waste ever. Surge is a passive perk that will slow down gens for you while you play. You don't need to kick gens at all. This also leads to her traps. A Gen gets damaged and starts to regress. Because of the trap, the survivor, that gets unhooked, will rarely go back to stop the regression but start to search the boxes immediately. This leady to the Gen regressing a lot more than against other killers.
You can if course have your own opinion on the topic, but I do think that surge is the best regression perk on her because pain res will only apply 4 times the match on one Gen only and for a killer that has very long chase times, this is just not good enough.
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A video from early last year offering general builds for each killer typically paired Pop with Jolt/Surge on M1 killers. The logic, as I understood it, was Surge made sure you didn't have to stop to kick gens as often, while Pop potentially ensured that you'd get your money's worth if you did have to kick a gen.
Post edited by Zeidoktor on1 -
Surge, or eruption+nowhere hide might work
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Eruption was the video's regression of choice for M2s, actually, alongside Call of Brine. The video was made before the perks got reworked/nerfed, but the logic is still there (Eruption does for M2s what Surge does for M1s, turn downs into regression, while CoB gives the kicks to activate Eruption a bit more oomph). Nowhere to Hide was a common combo, too.
With the 8-kick-per-gen update, though, the only Killer I'd suggest Eruption for is Pyramid Head, since it works off of M2 downs and isn't hook based, so you're free to choose cage over hook if desirable.
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I use eruption regularly on Oni…
Eruption is definitely valid if you want to use nowhere to hide, basically get as much value as possible from each kick.
CoB was nerfed so much I don't even consider it slowdown perk, the difference is just too small.
I liked to use Eruption+Surge on Wraith, but that's just terrible combination now.
I think No Way Out might get more use. It's kinda nice to have back up plan, so last gen is not so stressful situation.
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Why wouldn't they? They can't slow the gens anymore, so why not tunnel and slug more? That's their only out.
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Yeah, who could have seen that coming? First they gave us 15 seconds less to use it, then they made it take off percentage of completion and not percentage of total, and then they still lowered that number. It's a fool's perk, just like most of the others.
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Oni's a good choice too. Eruption is good on M2s since it encourages downing with your power on the Killers that can do so, where Surge compels you to M1 to get the effect. I mainly recommend Pyramid Head after a thread I saw noted he's hard to pick regression for since they're hook based like Pop or Pain Res or otherwise restricted, while Eruption slots nicely into his playstyle.
Going back to the topic at hand, my view on Pop was initially confusion since 20% was where it was last, but remembering the gen kick buff I'm wondering if that mitigates the drop to enough of a degree that 20% isn't as bad as it looks on paper. Still a nerf, but not as bad of one.
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I think it is viable in combination with some other slowdown perk to help.
So outcome would be pop is weaker, but not dead.
But I definitely wouldn't use it as solo regression perk.
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I'm sorry but survivors can play well perkless but most killers in the game can't.
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I mean, the perk is doing its intended purposes and slowing the game down enough where the killer CAN win??? Isn't that the point of the perk????
Like, let's be real and use our brains for a second, it was given to us for a reason y'know.
If the perk is still being used + Killers are still winning with it regardless of its nerf = Not dead.
Not sure how much more simple it can get for you, I've never seen a killer win with no perks, that's practically a raw calling for them to get mixed; I'd give props to any killer that could win without any perks, but chances are they'd resort to proxy, slugging or tunneling; which y'know….doesn't really say much on their skill besides that.
Let's proof read what we type before posting it cause this is lowkey embarrassing; It's giving… " Just because killers win with it, doesn't make it good…" which is a very broad argument and can be used for PLENTY of things. 💀0 -
ITs still a good perk, but no longer a must perl. Now its an alternative to eruption. Twice as powerful but targeting a single generator.
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I wouldn't say killed it, Pop wasn't a dead perk back when it was 20% of current progress either, and they've doubled the base progress loss on kicks since then as well as implemented the "5% until passive regression stops" mechanic, both of which makes kicking gens more attractive than it had been then.
13.5 seconds lost in an instant whenever you kick a gen that has 50% progress is not at all bad, and it only goes up from there. As opposed to many other slowdown perks, it's also very "targeted" regression: you can keep harassing a specific gen or set of gens of your choosing over and over again, especially if they are around the hook.
I think that it's good to shake up the meta every couple of months (unfortunately BHVR only vanishingly rare does), and Pop plus Pain Res were just too decidedly the most popular slowdown perks of choice. Ruin plus Pentimento for instance is a really good combo, all the more so now that you only very rarely have to worry about people booning your Hexes. Ruin was not only buffed to not disable itself anymore, but it has also collaterally gotten a higher standing since it can apply a ton of regression without incurring a singular "regression event". It also has the "healthy" aspect of encouraging the killer to spread the pressure to really get the most out of it. And Pentimento has always been a bit of an undervalued slowdown perk, in part I suspect because people don't really understand that it slowing down repair speed by 30% is more impactful than it increasing the repair time by 30%. This was true when gens were 80 seconds base and it is even more true now that they're 90: Pentimento does not cause a gen to take 30% of 90s longer to repair (which would be 27 seconds), it causes survivors to repair them 30% more slowly, increasing repair time by 38.5 seconds, totalling more than two minutes per gen. This can be downright debilitating to the survivors' ability to keep up a favourable pace of play, usually scrambling to try and get that Penti out of the match. So particularly if you are playing a killer that can protect the totem, you can leverage it to put yourself into a winning position off of that alone.
I will say that Pop is a bit lackluster now and especially so on lower-tier killers that can have issues getting many hooks and have to play off of those hooks more, and therefore could have done with some compensating buff, such as at least highlighting the gen with the most progress in the trial for as long as it as active. And I will further say that ideally, BHVR would buff slowdown perks to be a lot more impactful yet encourage more dynamic playstyles that don't revolve around camping and tunnelling. In the case of Pop, they could have made it so that it grants 30% regression on fresh hooks, 20% on second hooks, and 0% on death hooks. Or make it highlight the gen furthest from the hook that has progress, enabling the killer to apply 50% regression on that gen. Pain Res could also apply 20% on fresh hooks, 10% on second hooks, 0% on last hook. Or they could just pump up the numbers on them significantly, but disable them entirely once any survivor is sacrificed. A Pain Res that removes 50% of progress from the most-progressed gen in the trial could actually be perfectly fine if it did nothing once someone dies. Hell, they could even make that 50% of total rather than current progress in that case, meaning -45 seconds per proc. Ruin could be at 200% base regression again, albeit disabling itself once someone dies. Thanatophobia encourages spreading out the pressure and could do with notable number buffs, or making its numbers also apply to vaulting speeds, making sure that it is not overtuned on killers like Plague without however being undertuned on most others. Grim Embrace to encourage spreading out hook stages right off the bat could block gens for longer the earlier you get fresh hooks, such as 5 seconds per gen left at the time of the hooking (so 35 seconds if you hook someone at 7 gens left/0 gens repaired, 20 seconds at 4 gens left/3 gens repaired , and so on, down to 15 seconds if only 3 gens remain; in turn, it would not cause 40 seconds of blockage on the last fresh hook, but simply still 5 seconds per gen left standing). And so on.
Post edited by zarr on1 -
Yeah the 5% is neat but I get that 5% with or without Pop. Meaning, this doesn't really make the perk any stronger. If I were to kick a gen at 50% then a kick with Pop would do a total of 5% + 9% = 14% = 12.6 charges in total regression. The base kick did 4.5 charges alone. Meaning, Pop would give me 8.1 charges value. For a perk, that requires me to get a down, get to that gen and kick it, that is pretty bad.
Pop is now inferior to Surge, which isn't even that great and it would be inferior even if Surge only hit 1 gen each time considering, that I wouldn't need to kick the gen and I'd also get information each time.
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Pop works best when paired with Tinkerer coz your always going to find a gen with high progress.
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I think it's bit too weak now for most killers without mobility. They should kept 20% for total progress and not change it back to current progress. So then it would probably be alright.
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Should be twenty % total progress, not current
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It should either be 30% or current progress, or 15-20 percent of total progress.
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Tinkerer hasn't been worth it since it only goes off once.
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