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The Anti-Tunneling solution (Or solutions.)
Y'know, it's been a while since I made a discussion post and I'm generally surprised that this HASN'T be suggested, or perhaps, it has and was simply shoved into the darkness like many other posts have; but here's my take to fix the up-tick in the tunneling situation.
We used the hindered status that's mainly there to affect survivors of killers.
What I mean by this is, let's say that a survivor gets unhooked either by themselves or by others and the killer immediately 180s and begins to hound after them, the moment the killer enters chase with the survivor being tunneled, they're hit with a 25% hindered status for the duration of the chase.
They won't gain bloodlust and will continue to hold the 25% hindered status till they look for another survivor; essentially forcing the chase to become an extremely long-winded loop around the map if the killer chooses to HARD commit to attempting to tunnel out this survivor for whatever reason they could possibly have.
- To further discourage this, after the killer leaves chase; the effect will persist for about 3 seconds.
- Additionally, the ability will remain active as long as the survivor is within 36 meters of the killers range.
- Additionally, if the survivor becomes fully healed by any means with a perk; it deactivates.
To discourage SWFS from abusing this ability, this particular base-kit ability persists for about 8 seconds after getting off hook; AND taking a protection hit/committing conscious actions like doing gens, healing, unhooking, unlocking, opening; will cancel the effects immediately.
This can (Debatably) turn off during endgame just so killers have a chance at getting a kill if it turns out to be a situation where they DO tunnel a survivor off the hook during EG, which is the only valid reasoning.
The entire POINT of this is to discourage tunneling, not for it to be abused;
- Essentially, this covers attempting to work around the system by leaving chase and then immediately 180'd around to chase the survivor, because people would do that IMMEDIATELY. (Mostly by forcing the killer to leave the survivor COMPLETELY for the effect to go away, not proxy camping them.)
- This also covers SWFS trying to take advantage of this because unless they INTENTIONALLY take chase while someone else is being chased; there is absolutely nothing they can do to abuse it. (Though, I'm certain they'll find a way to do it.)
Now, the alternative to this is that we dock their BP. (Because let's be real, Killers will most certainly object to the fact that tunneling would hold no value; which is the POINT and PURPOSE, to discourage killers from resorting to tunneling.)
Honest thoughts on this? I think it's something that could work and get tweaked properly.
Comments
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This would kill dbd.
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I think a debuff with hinder and bloodlust removal would actually be the safest way to do this. The only thing you would also need to do, so survivors don't abuse this. Make it so an unhooked survivors also have no collision with the killer during this debuff.
You would get the debuff for 2 minutes after being unhooked or until you do a conspicuous action. It removes your collision, causes the killer to lose bloodlust if he enters chase with you, and reduces his movement speed slightly.
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The problem is that there's nothing innately wrong with tunneling. Saboing just got buffed and can be used to deny hooks which is a way to counter tunneling. You have perks like DS and OTR and you have basekit BT to prevent being killed immediately off hook.
The killer's main job is to kill you. If they want to focus you out, there is nothing wrong with it. Just like how survivors are free to focus on getting individual gens done and not just run around equally progressing every gen.
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Let's be real here. If a killer wanted you out of the game, REGARDLESS of OTR, DS, or BT; they'll take you out the game without hesitation, there isn't much a survivor can do to ESCAPE getting tunneled out of a game if a killer commits themselves to it. We're talking full on IGNORING other survivors no matter the circumstances, even if they're body blocking, even if they're flashlight saving, no matter WHAT they do.
It creates a snowball that curbs the game in SECONDS because a 4 v 1 can be considered an even match despite the fact it's not, but the moment it's a 3 v 1; it's OVER, especially if there's still gens to do. ( It happens too often to be brushed aside.)
But there's EVERYTHING a killer can do smack a gen and hit you with a regress that'll take you from a 90% to a 40% in just a couple of seconds, there's everything a killer can do to make the game living hell to actually play. The majority of the power system stems from the killer, we're at a stage where killers can play a match and win with little effort, even to competent players.
Also, the argument "The killer's job is to kill you" Falls short when I bring in the point that the point of survivor is to " Survive by any means. "
- Which results in flashlight saves, CJ Techs, Saboing hooks, body blocking; Swfing…all things killers consider powerful, annoying or overly toxic.
It's disingenuous and MOVES the goal post, not to mention; what that essentially says is, "If a killer can't effortlessly get kills, the game isn't fair." Which…no one wants, yes?4 -
Ok… So let me get this right, the window to activate the feature is 8 seconds, but if it activates during this 8 seconds it stays until chase is broken? So what exactly keeps a survivor from chasing after you and forcing chase onto you?
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You can't choose who you are in chase with. If the unhooked survivor and rescuing survivor run within the killer's FoV, they will be in a chase with both.
So if the killer is actively trying to avoid the unhooked survivor they can still be punished. With a decrease of 25% movement speed they would be functionally slower than the survivors unable to catch up. All the survivors would need to do is run together to hinder the killer unjustly.
On the other end, chase can be ignored by looking down. As long as the survivor is not running within the killer's FoV the chase never starts. Bypassing the "punishment".
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Anything that 'deactivates on protection hits' just encpurages the killer to smack you immediately after you get unhooked and force a protection hit.
And as Archol123 suggests, the unhooked survivor could just remain in chase to sustain this 25% hindered on the killer, preventing the killer from catching them or the unhooker.
Why are these suggestions always from people who very obviously never play killer?
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No idea what you are going on about, because I made no mention that the killer should get kills with no effort. But if the killer is effortlessly killing you, there's a different problem at play and it's not tunneling.
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'This would kill dbd.'
Just the Skull Merchant's players.1 -
Except tunneling doesn't really need to be discouraged? WAY more has to happen to the base game for not tunneling to be a good option against good survivors as most of the killer roster.
Also the effect if it not affecting SWF still has an oversight. Getting in chase doesn't count as a conspicuous action so the freshly unhooked survivor can run to their buddy with OTR and force a perma 25% hinder making any non ranged/mobility killer utterly useless. While yes "well at least its not 3 survivors on a gen" 3 gens should be completed by the time the middle of 2nd chase (at least if the survivor is good at the game) leaving only 2 left to be completed. Even if you add a mechanic of "when within another survivor in chase for X amount of seconds it disables the ability" it will still be powerful to just get a free slow (allowing for at least 1 more loop or distance to another tile) on the killer for simply walking to them.
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Also, the argument "The killer's job is to kill you" Falls short when I bring in the point that the point of survivor is to " Survive by any means. " Which results in flashlight saves, CJ Techs, Saboing hooks, body blocking; Swfing…all things killers consider powerful, annoying or overly toxic.
How exactly does it fall short? Besides SWFing, everything you listed is something a survivor can do trying to survive. It does not cancel out killers camping or tunneling. Both are on equal footing as tactics to win.
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Yeah, basically the gist of it is.
See, that'd be the only issue with it; intentionally forcing the killer to take chase, unfortunately, I've got nothing in back pocket to circumvent that.
A reasonable work around would be that the hindered stats last about a minute WHILE in chase and only in chase
- and after the killer leaves chase, it deactivates until the next time that survivor is hooked; but that creates the loophole in and of itself that all a Killer would have to do is take chase, suffer the status; LEAVE chase for a couple of seconds and then go right back to them.
TBH though, that would be a more optimal choice since it gives the survivor a chance to evade them for a time being.Bestie, I don't really see you suggesting anything; though, I will admit, I DID mention THAT particular way to abuse it. I don't have any counter-arguments the specific usage of said suggestion besides adding a time limit.
Not gonna lie, I didn't know killers could avoid chase by looking down, not that it can be complained about. The entire point is to discourage tunneling, nothing more, nothing less.
The only thing It'd do is WEED OUT the killers who have to Consistently tunnel to get kills. We can all agree that the tunneling rate is HIGHER than it's ever been before right, why not actually make a post to do something about it.
Not that I expect even the SLIGHTEST bit of it to be taken into consideration, IIRC the devs either made it implicitly or explicitly clear they won't fix any problems relating to slugging or tunneling, though I'm NOT sure which one.I'm….gonna need you to re-read what I just said because it seems like the point was skipped over your head.
I don't recall saying YOU said it, I referred to the phrase "The killers job is to kill….?"???1 -
I mean why not just increase the duration of the haste or the speed boost itseld, make it so the survivor completely loses collision for that duration. Or go even further turn them invisible without collision for that duration? The same as Vecna's artifact... Of course this needs to deactivate when all gens are done and under certain other conditions and so on, but at least this would prevent tunneling. Question is only do you want to get rid of it in any way shape or form or only make it harder? Get rid of it: invisible, make it harder: lose collision and more/longer haste.
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The only reasonable tunneling I'll accept with a bit of salt is when it endgame or when the killer doesn't have any death hooks survivors towards 1 or POSSIBLY 2 gens left, so the intention here isn't to COMPLETELY get rid of it; hence why my suggestion pushed it so it deactivates during EGC.
It just needs to be made MUCH harder
The problem with increasing the haste speed is that it doesn't really FIX the issue unless the survivor gets a (50% - 75%) Haste boost to actually create distance for the duration of their basekit BT.0 -
Depends on what the goal is... Do you want to make it impossible for the majority of the killers to catch up or just not worth the killers time to follow that survivor.
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Terrible idea, easily abusable by survivors. Tunneling is a necessity sometimes. The right way to fix it is to incentivize hooking multiple survivors. True Talents suffering mechanic that Otzdarva endorses would end tunneling almost entirely without punishing killers. Until something similar is introduced, tunneling is here to stay.
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I feel like they would have to rework the hook system and maybe even the killers win condition to get rid of tunneling,camping etc. Dont think thats something that will happen in this version of dbd anymore. Maybe if a dbd 2 releases.
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TLDR | Basekit survivor hook stuff is good enough and provides counterplay for both sides. To enhance this you can bring perks to better help you to alter this in your favor. Also your suggested changes will not stop tunneling even if it is harder, and in some cases will not have any change at all.
These are flawed suggestions, to get rid of tunneling <or camping> we need to alter hooking to be like how torment or pyramid heads cages work. But that would remove pallet saves, sabo plays, and make being downed a guaranteed hook stage or kill. All this work, just for the outcome to be the same, inescapable death.
There is no perfect fix but what we have basekit is great at discouraging and at least allows the survivor to try. There are even perks which enhance this ability.
However, punishing players will not lead to a change in behavior. If bubba wants to camp, Bubba will camp. Nurse will not be affected by the movement speed penalty and will tunnel just fine. Huntress, can still hit with hatchets from afar or camp your hook and never let you leave it. This leads the to a better way to change things like with unique hook perks.
Clearly, Grim Embrace, pain Res, and No Way Out are perks which promote healthier gameplay and are a step in a better direction.
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To discourage SWFS from abusing this ability, this particular base-kit ability persists for about 8 seconds after getting off hook; AND taking a protection hit/committing conscious actions like doing gens, healing, unhooking, unlocking, opening; will cancel the effects immediately.
It's 25% Hindered. The Killer, even at 115% movement speed, is moving slower than the Survivor. I dont think you understand how impactful 25% Hindered even is, for reference, 20% Hindered is from Champion of Light, which is considered a really good distance based perk.
The unhooked Survivor wouldnt even need to take a hit for their teammate since the Killer is moving way slower than they are anyways, nor would the Killer be able to escape this effect since the Survivor would be moving faster than they can. The Killer could be permanently stuck with the 25% Hindered the entire match, with literally no way of catching up whatsoever, since "they cannot gain Bloodlust".
I dont even tunnel in my matches but sometimes Survivors do unhook close to me due to small maps or Survivors running into teammates that are unhooking, Id be punished just by accidentally looking their way and starting a chase.
To put it bluntly, this is a horrible idea.
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Hooking multiple Survivors will never be stronger than tunneling unless tunneling is removed. That's just the plain and simple truth, unless you want to do something outrageous.
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Something complicated like this is never going to fly. Not the least of the issues is that it's highly abusable.
But the bare minimum in two years that the devs could do to help combat tunneling was making DS 5 seconds again, and they couldn't even do that. Even making the hook timer longer (90 second to match gens) is too much in their eyes… and there's zero way that can be abused.
They don't care about fixing tunneling, it's not an issue they are going to put any effort into whatsoever.
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That is a HORRIBLE idea. The killer doesn't pick, who they chase. The game does it for them. Meaning, survivors could (and would) abuse this by running in front of the killer and getting their team mate an instant get out of jail free card. So no matter who the killer would try to chase, you would only need to run somewhere close to them and suddenly the other survivor gets a huge advantage. This would also mean, that killer would have to run away from the unhooked survivor instead of the other way around.
Your suggested restrictions would not be enough because this would also allow people to unhook mid chase and get away, which should never be encouraged.
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25% hindered is way too high. @Iron_Cutlass post summarizes the problem. The best that dbd could do to weaken tunneling/proxy camping is MFT haste and borrow time to work with 2 survivors. Anything past that and your making the survivor immortal. Decisive strike displays this problem of being untouchable.
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DBD is based off a horror film scenario.
Tunneling happens because the killer discovers who they can eliminate relatively quickly. That’s exactly what the monster does. The weak links should die first. Now the killer has time to chase survivors that would waste their time. If all survivors run, and defend each other well enough… Tunneling/Camping won’t work.
The Devs actually just gave anti tunnel perks. It’s Champion of Light, and Chemical Bomb.
When you successfully slow the killer you’re guaranteed a Head On if you equip that. So you waste even more of the killer’s time.3 -
I think it’s an interesting concept though the numbers and metrics may need heavily consideration. I’ve seen a few different ideas on the forums recently that all have merit. I certainly think they can be tested on a PTB at least to see what can/cannot be abused and make tweaks accordingly (applying certain conditions and disabling things that may lead to abuse in the way that many others above have mentioned).
I can’t remember who** so cannot credit them sadly, but someone also mentioned about hooked survivors moving around like PH cages - this can actually kill (or at least injure) two birds with one stone* as it can also detract against easy zone-camping.
Other ideas someone mentioned was to stay in deep-wound (like Legion power) until the person is no longer being tunnelled - again, with conditions and so on to consider potential abuse.
In any case, a potential combination of these are definitely worth testing and refining I would hope. Any idea can potentially be abused so it’s easy to pick them apart so the numbers and metrics, conditions and scenarios will of course need proper testing.
I do like that you have sought ideas though as the current status quo (though of course not all killers) and the VERY high propensity of tunnelling can make the game unbearable for many and as such, ideas must be tested.*Not physically of course! @GentlemanFridge 🦜
**edit - credit to @Objectively_speaking
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The mechanics of chase would have to be changed to accomodate this, which may indirectly affect other things like perks which proc when a chase ends or is ongoing.
Chase gets bugged sometimes and either activates only when you hit a Survivor or continues to remain even after the Survivor is not in your FOV for 30 seconds.
The effort is appreciated, just that the technology isn't good enough to support the idea.
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what does Skull Merchant have to do with this post?
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Post edited by GentlemanFridge on2 -
I don't know, why do you think all these 'Anti-tunneling solutions' 'will kill DbD' ?
To my mind, the only way to definitively remove the tunnel & the camp from the game will be to directly be sacrificied since the first hook.
But even it is not the subject of the topic here, nobody will play survivors in these conditions I guess… but it will be a solution tho'.0 -
Not really the only way you can just make it so hooked survivors teleport to the other side of the map, so you cannot camp as easily or make it so you unhook from a different position... So you just need to walk somewhere do an action and that unhook despite not being at the hook. And for tunneling you could make it so the unhooked survivor does not have collision and cannot be targeted and until he does a conspicuous action.
Not saying this would be good balance wise, but it would effectively kill both strategies.
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