Hook respawn after the sacrifice. Might as well...
Deactivate Flip Flop and Boil Over in the endgame and when you are the last survivor still alive, no?
No reason for these perks to function in this situation anymore
Comments
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hook deadzones will still exist, but sure im not exactly against annoying perks being nerfed I guess😭
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At this point I think the reduction of hooks is needed, or at least increasing the distance between them.
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Also, will Scourge Hooks respawn as Scourge Hooks?
Yeah, thats the only change in this patch that I'm not okay with
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Yeah I agree on that. I’m ok with the respawn but I think a respawned scourge hook in this instance should revert to a normal hook
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I dont think so.
What should be reduced is the RNG for Hooks. There should be SOME RNG, but not as extreme as it can be currently. You sometimes have one Hook in a huge area and thats it and sometimes you have 3 Hooks so close together that the Survivors might be holding hands on them.
So the solution should be to have 2 Hooks which allow the Killer to hook even if one of them is gone or already "occupied", but also makes saves still possible and does not grant the Killer insane pressure just because they got lucky with Hook Spawns.
A good example for this is Midwich. Sometimes you have one Hook in a hallway and sometimes you have 3 or 4 in the same hallway. (Because of this I think they should remove Hook-RNG from Midwich, because the RNG for Pallets and so is also not really there, so making Midwich more consistent is the way to go)
In general, I think they can reduce the RNG on Maps. RNG was important when there were only 3 Realms with 4 or 5 Maps each. Now we have so many Realms and Maps that it is not really needed to have a huge RNG-factor to make games feel different.
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I dont really see a connection here. And I dont think Flip Flop needs changes. But I am always for a Boil Over-Rework, since the Perk is just weak unless it is used in a specific Build to be annoying.
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Another survivor skill expression being nerfed
The killer has Pain Resonance, and I know a hook in the corner is one of the scourge hook, I am death hook and other teammates have not been hooked yet. I run to that corner and force the killer to hook me in one of the scourge hooks, and now the rest of the game theres only 3 hooks left
Yeah, no more skilled plays by survivors anymore, as the days go the tendency is to remove all of them I guess
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When they add the finisher mori system at some point over the next year, that situation is going to be redundant anyway - since they can just mori you where you are.
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Ngl, if a Survivor had Boil Over and Flip Flop, even if they are the last Survivor, and they kept intentionally running to a deadzone to prevent being hooked, they are going to be bled out or killed by EGC instead of actually being hooked.
This change realistically improves the situation since it helps all players move onto the next match and prevents the Survivor from wasting my time out of sheer pettiness.
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Which is fine, after all its their choice
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When Flip Flop is useful when used by itself with no wiggle perks?
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This change should have been done years ago tbh, but very good change, sometimes when several hooks are destroyed in a zone you are unable to hook, this was a problem specially in some indoor maps, if the survivors realize you can't hook in a certain place they just go there and you was forced to slug.
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I dont think Flip Flop is as unhealthy as Boil Over.
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I mean I'd prefer boil over and flip flop being less usable if it means I don't have to slug/get slugged because the hook is gone.
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honestly, it’s hook being respawned after 60 seconds, or getting slugged more often. Make your choice
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There can be 1000 hooks in one map but that won't stop killers slugging let's be real.
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I will say I'm not a fan of this change. There's absolutely a problem where hooks are too RNG and can spawn deadzones far too easily, but that's not a problem with the hooks breaking, that's a problem with map design. Instead of fixing the issues with the maps, this is a bandaid fix of the symptoms without fixing the root of the problem. This change reduces the skill floor for playing killer, but also the skill ceiling, and it lessens the gap between a good killer player and a bad one, because good players were already managing their hooks and knew when a deadzone had spawned so would instantly slug instead of wasting time picking up + dropping, and good players would manage their hooks when not in a deadzone to avoid creating one that could be used against them. Now they respawn after 60 seconds, and even though it's a small bit of skill expression, it's still something which has been taken away, and when you combine it with the rest of the changes we've had to make killer less skillful overall, it's just… not something I'm particularly excited for.
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There is literally no skill involved in having hooks get destroyed permanently. It’s a feature whose only purpose is to be annoying and to force the killer to slug, a product of 2016 DBD.
DBD isn’t a competitive game. If the last survivor runs to a dead zone, it’s only to be annoying and to drag out the match. The fewer opportunities there are to do this, the healthier the game will be.
And yes, killers who want to slug will slug; literally no one said otherwise. This is just a step in the right direction. The next one should be allowing survivors to speed up the bleeding.
Not to mention that punishing the killer for killing survivors is stupid game design in the first place. It’s like if completed generators revealed the aura of survivors nearby. It makes no sense at all.
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I always wonder when ds was buffed, one of the arguments was: while good players can make good use of it, its absurd to expect new or average players to have the skill to make it worth with 3 seconds. Which I think its absolutelly reasonable. Idk why the argument flips on the killer side tho, either its fine to change unfun mechanics that actually good players can counter in order for less skilled players to have an easier time or it isnt fine.
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It's making killer play more brainless than it already is. At least with the current system, killers would need to think at least a little bit as to where they're going to hook, adding a small level of skill. Now a literal potato could play killer with how easy it is.
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You do realize that in order for the killer to hook you, they have to chase and down you in the first place, right? Or are you saying that youre losing against potato killers? lol
This is simply a great QoL change, no more annoying survivors dragging out matches.
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You'll find that I have never argued that DS should be 5 seconds because new players can't make time out of 3 seconds, I've always argued that DS should be 5 or more seconds because there's so many things which disable it that there realistically should be a punishment to tunneling, and as they want that to be in the form of a perk then make it a proper punishment. Therefore, you'll find that my arguments are entirely consistent, and that shockingly different people will believe and argue different things.
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It's removing the macro gameplay from the killer side, at least for creating dead zones.
Why shouldn't you have to consider creating dead zones when completing your objective? If we apply the same thinking to survivors, are they going to add that you can complete the same gen repeatedly after 60 seconds?
After all, avoiding a 3 gen is macro gameplay, and apparently you shouldn't be punished for creating a deaf zone by completing your primary objective.
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It's much easier for survivors to choose what gens they do than for killers to choose what hooks they use. When I'm playing killer, I have to take the nearest hook to where the survivor has decided to run or it's a huge risk of of me getting stuck on the environment and them getting off my shoulder. As survivor, if the killer is staying in the same area usually one of us can distract him and still manage to get one of the gens done.
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Unlike a survivor's primary objective (gens), killing can be done without having to hook anyone at all. If I down someone in a dead zone, I can literally just let them bleed out to death.
If the last survivor is in a dead zone, the fact that hooks now respawn means that both sides get to move on to their next match without having to wait for the survivor to bleed out first.
In a scenario where there are two survivors alive and one goes down in a dead zone, two things can happen:
1) They get slugged because there's no hook nearby, so the other survivor just hides until this happens to grab the hatch/gate.
2) The remaining survivor goes for the pick-up, but since the killer knows where the dead zone is, they just go back and slug whoever they find first, repeating the process.
Both scenarios artificially drag out the match. But if hooks respawn, these scenarios are reduced and matches are faster without that annoying part at the end. This is a positive for everyone. Or do you like being bled out to death?
Also, picking the death hook of a survivor isn't as macro as you say it is. First, because there's a limited number of hooks you can go to (if closer to the edge, usually around two hooks to choose from). And second, because by the time the dead zones become a threat, the match is pretty much over as it means everyone is already dead.
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But still removing that macro consideration from the game, which is honestly the only one that killers even have to consider at all.
They've essentially made every hook a basement hook.
Survivors have to manage both gens and pallets as macro resources, and any mistakes can potentially cost you the match. I mention gens because 1) it's the equivalent objective, and 2) it sounds ridiculous to even suggest that they make this change to gens. So there's no reason to do it for hooks either.
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I assume they're doing it because of the surge in complaints about slugging. Not that this will stop slugging, but the game has a lot of mechanics that encourage slugging. Respawning hooks won't get rid of slugging but will remove one of the mechanics that cause slugging to be necessary.
It's a tradeoff between easier hooks or necessary slugging. It seems half and half: for every complaint about hooks being too easy and never being able to wiggle off, there's also a complaint about too much slugging. There's no making everyone happy, but most survivors would rather be hooked than bleed out.
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There is skill and I already mentioned scourge hooks
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But how about when theres still other survivors left and the Flip Flop Boil Over is actually wasting the killer's time whilst the teammates are doing gens/gates?
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…. You do realize that killers get hook auras revealed to them when they pick up a survivor right? Survivors don't get to see generator auras at basekit and hooks don't tend to spawn that far apart. I've taken survivors to farther hooks and have been taken to farther hooks without any carrying perks. On the survivor side of this, it is almost entirely up to the killer to chase a survivor or to protect a gen. You should be able to carry a survivor to a hook that isn't the closest hook and pay attention to where your hooks might be. As Killer, hook dead zones are RARELY a problem. Maybe I get better RNG as Killer, or maybe I just avoid those situations to the best of my abilities.
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Might I propose an idea:
If you are using a wiggle build, there is no reason to not bring this perk. Even outside of wiggle builds, it can prove to be strong by create hook-deadzones for you and your team.
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Healthy and good change for the game. Hook destruction caused unfun scenarios for 8 years now. Its long overdue to be looked at.
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You should be able to carry a survivor to a hook that isn't the closest hook
No, not really. Even normal wiggling throws me around a lot. I'll often get stuck on the environment if I try to get to a farther hook (I get caught on the environment when not carrying anyone, too, that's an annoying part of playing on Switch, but it can feel like I'm completely glued in place if someone's wiggling on my shoulder). And a lot of survivors do run to the same area to get downed, whether they do it on purpose or not.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. If they choose to forego this and keep hooks broken after a sacrifice, then it'll be as it always has and that's fine, too. I don't mind slugging as killer, and being slugged as survivor isn't necessarily fun but it doesn't bother me that much.
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The biggest complaint for slugging has always been slugging for the 4k. This does literally nothing to that incredibly common scenario.
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Which skill, exactly? Going for the second closest hook instead of the first? lol
You can play every single killer by just going to the first hook you see and you'll do just fine. It isn't deeper than that. This isn't the killer buff you're making it out to be, lmao.
We also don't know the Scourge Hook interaction yet, and even if Scourge Hooks respawned as Scourge Hooks, it wouldn't be strong either. But keep advocating for mechanics that promote slugging, I guess. Everyone's got their own opinions.1 -
As I said:
Not that this will stop slugging
Slugging for the 4k has to do with the hatch mechanic, and reworking that would take a lot of time and effort. Respawning hooks takes like practically no time and effort on BHVR's part. Slugging has been a growing complaint, so I assume this is a reaction (and like I said, not a fix) to that. The biggest complaint I've seen on the forum lately has actually been killers slugging for no reason whatsoever, and this change doesn't help with that, either.
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What? If your team has 2 people on the hook at the same time that isn't a hook distance issue that is a major and I mean MAJOR skill issue on your teams part. I don't understand this community and thinking that the killer player should be punished because one solo que survivor is pissed off his team sucks when in reality he is just as bad because he also didn't save the first hooked guy before the second was put on a hook.
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Just read a previous post
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I don't think it'll stop slugging either, but let's not try and sell this change as some kind of benefit to survivors.
This doesn't touch on any of the most common reasons for slugging: for the 4k, sabo plays, spite/pettiness.
It's a killer buff, and it's not exactly game breaking, but it's somewhere more than a tiny qol buff and a macro gameplay buff.
It being a killer buff is ok, but trying to claim it's anything else makes it seem really weird at best or disingenuous at worst. Let's call a duck a duck here.
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I'm saying that it removes one of the few remaining elements of strategy that a killer must take. When I down a survivor that's in a corner or otherwise somewhat dead area AND they are at their last hook before death, I will ensure I take them to a hook that doesn't create even more dead space. Thus creating a bit more strategy for killers to decide where they should hook. If a killer was silly enough to kill the first survivor in a corner hook and creating a bunch of dead space, that's too bad on them. The change negates strategy for killers making them more of a potato and also renders certain Survivor wiggle perks a bit useless. Now if they reduced the overall number hooks in a match and implemented this at the same time, that would be an excellent compromise.
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let's not try and sell this change as some kind of benefit to survivors.
I would never say hooks coming back is a benefit to survivors. I was taking a guess at BHVR's mindset, since there seems to be this question of "Why would they do this?"
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No more survivors dragging out matches, but killers are still allow to do so?
It would be a fair trade if the basekit Unbreakable is in play right now, but its not
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Right... going for the second closest hook instead of the first is such a brilliant display of skill that removing it would completely strip the killer role of any remaining skill expression. Lmao.
Seeing survivors pretend they understand the killer role will forever be funny, but in this case, it's even more hilarious because this change benefits survivors as well since it means killers are less incentivized to slug.
Given that in your first comment you said this change would make it so even potato killers will win, I assume you haven't touched the killer role since you started playing. In that case, let me tell you that it's been a long while since BHVR got rid of most zones with only one hook, so early dead zones (at 1 kill) don't even happen anymore, which you'd know if you played killer.
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Luckily, a Killer can only drag out a match for a few minutes since you either bleed out or repair gens and escape. However, I did mention in my original comment that it would be nice to have a speed-up option for bleeding out.
Sadly, survivors can still drag out matches infinitely thanks to stealth and dropping and picking up items, which prevents crows from spawning. Unlike a killer slugging, this can go on until the match is forced to shut down. Now, if you were to ask me, I would say it's pretty obvious which case is more egregious, but that's just me. Both cases need their fixes regardless, so trying to get into an "us vs. them" discussion is pointless.
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So that survivors get slugged from the get-go, instead of just in the end-game? Interesting proposal.
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But why should you get free escapes for being downed
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Because I'm bringing a perk?
Why do killers should have free aura reading on survivors? Why they should have free gen regression?
I mean, its pretty self explanatory
Otherwise those already mentioned perks should not exist in the game, don't you think?
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Youre right why not have a perk that gives free escapes, or a perk that gives free chases
Because some effects just shouldn't be attached to perks that give consistent value and not every perk should be viable on its own
Flip flop is a combo perk because on its own it would be too strong for free consistent escapes as it would outclass other slugging perks and other escape perks
More specialized perks like unbreakable, no mither, and soulguard either have limited usage, downsides, or requirements
Perks like breakout and items like flashlights and toolboxes require teamwork but provide the same value that 1 perk would provide, should a single perk slot provide more value than a teammate with an item or a altruistic version of the perk, probably not
This one is a combo perk because effects for potential infinite free self escapes should be limited
A more general perk like flip flop shouldn't swing the game, either combos or specific counters should
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No? There are already areas where you can barely reach a hook because the rng is so bad, there is no reason to increase the issue on top of Sabo being stronger currently. This change is good because you are not forced to bleed out survivors as much anymore, because at least you did not create a dead zone by hooking some in a place with no other hooks, why would you want to I crease the likely hood of getting bled out again?
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Then so is bleeding out people for no apparent reason.
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And that's another reason people are mad at Distortion. If the killer could just use their Darkness Revealed to find survivors just hiding at the end, it'd help end hostage taken matches. But because of Distortion, that possibility would be negated, and then the tokens regain because the killer can't find them. And I don't even know if nerfing Distortion would fix this. A survivor can be hiding in the locker, killer decides to check all lockers on the map, but the survivor moves from theirs to one that the killer has already searched: the killer searched every locker on the map and didn't find the survivor. Maybe the solution is to let killers see auras through lockers, because even in the event of the very logical solution, "Survivors get their auras shown when they don't progress the objective for X minutes" they could just hide in a locker.
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