Survivor Items: Maps and Keys are actually good but have the same issues
So I've been trying out Map and Keys more, and both of them can actually be comparably good to toolboxes and medkits (which for the sake of your reading time I'll highlight below)... but both of them suffer from the same problems:
- Their effects (unlike flashlights, medkits and toolboxes) are inconsistent between rarity.
- They are thus very add-on (even perk) reliant. Without certain add-ons their usefulness is greatly diminished.
- There is no cheap and cheerful variant (minimum of green for both).
- Their non iri variants are pretty bad, which makes the only useful versions of them the very rare iri items that you can't acquire easily... and all other versions are trash.
So to elucidate a little more:
Maps
The problem with all maps is the range is short at 8m, and there is this need to "discover" items.
However with add-ons and/or Detective's Hunch:
- Rubber/Odd Stamp - You NEED a stamp... increasing your range gets rid of the discovery problem, especially with 2 stamps... alternatively combined with Red Twine and these add-ons make maps amazing. As you roam around doing your regular business, you'll discover most auras without even trying... it's god tier info.
- Red Twine - This item is incredible... just because it gives you totems. For any totem build, this is by far the easiest method of finding them, and it makes hexes VERY easy to deal with.
- Crystal Bead - Pillar of Light, great for using the likes of Prove Thyself or as a budget Empathetic Connection. Fun but outclassed by other add-ons...
Iri maps are actually awesome. On top of gens you also get to track hatch, hooks and exit gate switches, which is equivalent to an immediately available combined Clairvoyance and Sabotuer. The bloodsense maps from the Bloodmoon event are even more amazing, with all these benefits and with a limited Empathy thrown in too...
The standard green maps however don't get any of these luxuries... they need the other add-ons to get just 1 of the things the iri maps get.... and without those add-ons you just get gens, which just isn't enough value alone, making them suck... you can shore up with add-ons, but you're losing out on something...
Keys
Keys Have a similar problem, without add-ons they almost do nothing.... the green key literally does nothing.
However with add-ons and/or Open Handed:
- Blood Amber - Of course… its wall hacks on the killer and is amazing at surviving mind games at loops. The duration debuff is a much needed and fair debuff but...
- Prayer Rope/Beeds - Gives you 10s/15s extra duration, basically a requirement for Blood Amber... and sadly both for Broken Key (10s) and Dull Key (5s)... compared to Skeleton keys (30s) 😑
- We've also got range add-ons, survivor aura addons and Key saving add-ons... however all points can be made without diving into this.
Basically is the iri key or bust. The 30s duration on these aura reads is what makes the key good. The base times for the broken key and especially the dull key are woefully pitiful, making their usage pointless...
Especially the green key... you'd think with it at least being unable to open the hatch it'd be good for aura reading, but nope... it's crap... and since hatch requires you to be last player standing the dull keybis basically crap as well...
Summary
So both Keys and Maps have the same issue... their iri forms/at their best they are great… but the non iri forms are basically useless without perks/add-ons, and usually even then are falling short.... and even the greens aren't common... the only versions worthwhile are the iri variations...
Meanwhile the cheapest medkits and yellow/green toolboxes are good or best variations of each... and far easier to attain.
Really they don't need a lot of buffs... just their lower tier variants need to be made to not completely suck imo 😒
Comments
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I want the green key gone. Period. There should be a brown key with 0 tracking capabilities that can open the hatch at the very least.
The charge system for these items should be different. As in, you click the button and you instantly lose 4 charges without having to keep pressing the button, but the aura effect lingers for 4 seconds. For the maps with the bead, this means pressing the Item button again would make a marker wherever the center of your camera is pointing, not on your feet.
Lower rarity maps have lower tracking range but they track everything. Map add-ons could let you start with stuff already tracked, and they could even add high rarity ones like highlighting regressing gens, scourge hooks or hex totems.
Lower the rarity of maps and keys. Make them more readily available. They keep nerfing and reworking medkits and gen repair when they could be buffing other items instead for the same or even better results.
There's so much they could be doing to make keys and maps more interesting. Imagine an iri add-on that allows your key to be consumed to open a secret passage on a locker that allows you to go to an underground tunnel like the Alien and you have, like, 10 seconds to find your way to another locker and leave or you get pushed out of the closest locker screaming and giving the killer Killer Instinct over you.
But instead, we have a green rarity broken key. Fun.
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Well put. I like to run maps and keys sometimes, but them being a green rarity at minimum does mean they're not easy to aquire.
An add-on I'm surprised you didn't bring out for keys though is Gold Token. I started running this with Prayer Rope during Chaos Shuffle, since it's basically Bond but with a wider radius (48m), and figuring out where your teammates are can be very helpful :). Even the yellow rarity Eroded Token is not too bad. And I'd say it's the best on Green Key, since 20 seconds is fine for tapping into when you need. So Green Key in my opinion is better than Purple, since I don't usually play for hatch and would rather use the aura reading for a reasonable time.
But agreed, a lower rarity functional item would be hugely helpful.
I will say though, that the current version of Red Twine is incredibly unfair towards a few Killers - it highlighting "killer belongings" includes Hag traps, Freddy snares and most annoyingly Trapper's traps, which means someone with this add-on can follow set-up killers around and pretty much render their power useless. Since maps are rarely used this isn't an issue often, but if you do play against someone using it as Trapper it's pretty miserable. If they do a rework on these items, I really hope this is considered.
Post edited by moputopia on2 -
both Z-tier items with no real use. the blood amber key is clunky to use and med-kit instant heal is better chase enhancer then the key. Maps have low range and corresponding perks that make use of maps are low reward.
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Keys need to be changed to have ability to instantly open chests.
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Yes, please. Buff/Rework maps and keys 💪
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That would be fun. They would probably still be weak but it would be more enjoyable!
Make the Broken Key a brown item and let it also open the chests. And when holding a key the aura of the unopened chests are visible to you so you don’t need to waste much time.
Could also make it so that the rarer keys increase the rarity of items you find. (Except maybe not able to find keys because then it could lead to a never ending cycle of keys haha)
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These items have their uses and are kind of fine as is.
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Both need an overhaul
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Clunky to use? Keys are pretty darned easy to use man... sure the potential value of a syringe medkit is better, but that is a one attempt gamble that can be undone by losing a single mind game… keys you can use as long as you have charges multiple times, and basically makes you immune to mind games.
Maps do have low detection range, which is why you use a stamp.The odd stamp gives you a 20m bubble of detection, which is suddenly quite large. Just a casual walk to a distant central gen at the start to split up from your team, and maybe 1 allied unhook and it's not uncommon to have 40% or more of the map's aura revealed.
Honestly the iri versions of both are pretty damn good... the problem is the lower tier versions suck... especially keys. You can make a green map work, but it requires heavy investment.
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I think the clunky part of them is requires a starting bar to make use of it. Wait for 1sec to see aura and stuffs. Despite medkit and toolbox got nerfed real hard, you still dont see maps and keys in use.
They need an overhaul. Able to see Gen/totem aura from map is not strong enough to have charges. Perks being free have unlimited use. For the key, Green key should come with teammate aura by default. And let Dull/skeleton keys instantly unlock chests.
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if that was so true, i wouldn't be seeing 2 syringes on over 50% of my matches. the basic grey med-kit with no add-on is more damaging then a map or blood amber key.
Clunky to use? Keys are pretty darned easy to use man.
I find blood amber keys very clunky to use because you need channel the key in advance to predict a mindgame that might not happen which waste the charges of the item than then you have let go of key to vault windows or drop pallets. they're also high perk investment because blood amber reduces the charges of skeleton key by -50% which kinda forces you to use streetwise and even build to last due to the "wasting" of key.
Map is pointless. the only perk that makes this item worth using is Overzealous. this perk allows you to gain 10% repair speed bonus after cleansing a totem. those who remember old toolboxes will know why. Old toolbox used to scale 10/15/20/25% repair penalty. 10% was grey toolbox. commodus was 15%, Mechanic was 20% and engineer was 25%. alex was 5%. Overzealous allows you to get an old grey toolbox for 10% repair speed. If paired with Deja vu, you get 16% repair bonus which was old commodus toolbox with 180 charges.
You can sub a map to use an old toolbox with setup of having to cleanse a totem. Still, i don't see anyone use the perk. It is likely because # for overzealous is likely still to low. Maybe survivor would use this at 15%? from my observations, the dev do not want to buff maps because they counter hex totems despite keeping hex totems in a spot where they're mostly ineffective. For example, in recent DND chapter, there is a perk called Near sighted which is suppose reveal totems but it does not. The survivor in their description says that they're suppose to reveal totems but they are unable to do that. that is evidence to say that they're against adding any totem finding perks. Alan Wake's Boon:Illumination and Mikela's Clairvoyance perk are also perks that look like they should have totem finding on them but they do not. Mikela used to find totems in PTB but was quickly removed cementing my point.
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It would be nice to have a few new variants of add-ons for each item. Flashlights, toolboxes and first aid kits have 11-13, so if 2-3 more add-ons were made with interesting effects that would be nice.
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Pretty much agree with most there, and yeah those perks push the benefits of these items further, which is all good stuff. Overzealous and Inner Strength is a very nice combo.
I think the thing to realise is long time veterans who have memorised the maps, tiles and spawns, and know every mind game in depth at every loop vs. every killer don't need auras, and thus don't need maps or keys...
However the players who would find them very useful are the players who haven't got to that level of play yet. At lower levels everyone still uses medkits with syringes and commodius toolboxes, but a significant reason you only see these is because you can get these quite easily. Both of these are useful even at their most basic form, and then an iri add-on can be slapped on any version to get more value. For keys and maps, you basically need the iri item, then usually good add-ons as well... which most lower level survivors just don't have, or not enough of to try and run/learn them.
I find blood amber keys very clunky to use because you need channel the key in advance to predict a mindgame that might not happen which waste the charges of the item than then you have let go of key to vault windows or drop pallets.
Regarding the clunky keys and start up, you only need a brief flash on what the killer is doing, and it really helps you stop making dumb mistakes at high tiles. You flash as you turn a corner and barely use any charge. Especially with Streetwise the key can last ages.
It's tricky sure, and takes a little getting used to, but that's because the effect is very strong, if it was instantaneous it'd be absolutely brain dead.
I think this is also derived from the same issue. In order for the effect to be worthwhile, you need the iri version, and even if you're survivor level 10 you hardly have an abundance of iri keys... so even trying to learn it is a pain.
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I tried using a map while playing during the anniversary event. Unfortunately I played against a tunneling Vecna and all survivors including me weren't that good, so the match went quickly downhill. The thing that annoyed me the most was the fact that you have to actively read the map to see things.
Rant over, onto the post now.
I agree with you that in both cases, it's the iri option or nothing. The Green Map needs buffs, as well as Purple and Green Keys, because they are all next to useless.
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It should be reduced, not more. There are many useless addons. Silent toolbox was fine because toolboxes used to be slower progress but last much longer. Now it lasts a few second, why should anyone use it? Just a waste of bloodweb and addon slot. Just an example of bad addon.
And it should goes for both side. Varity should go, we dont need Brown addon, then another addon that does the samething but better because how easy to earn BP now.
Seeing killer's aura is fine with the delay. Instantly show up is broken, its clunky to use, but it has to.
Its the map's aura that definitely needed a buff.
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using blood amber key is kinda like playing doctor as survivor. you need to know what killer is going to do in advance to use it and even then, an extra health-state kinda does more on average. I agree on this sentiment to some degree that wall-hack for experience survivors such myself is not nearly as good because of amount of experience in mindgames and movement. I would personally like to see the key channel time and map channel time be reduced by 50%.
Maybe buff overzealous a little bit more for higher map value. Inner healing could also use a buff. Maybe it starts trial active. it is not very popular perk from what i have seen as killer.
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It bugs me that Keys and Maps essentially do the same thing in different ways. They're both info toolsn revealing auras of different objectivesn with a couple of other niche effects like the glass bead or opening the hatch.
It's like having two different types of toolbox, one that just repairs gens and one that just sabotages hooks.
They should be merged into one item.
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Actually quite an interesting idea. I will admit I like the distinction of environmental auras vs. player auras between maps and keys, but I'm not attaches to it enough that I'd reject this idea.
I feel like a few things would need tweaking though.
- The survivor aura reveals are pretty big, and raises questions for Bonds and also Empathy's usefulness.
- Yellow Twine comes out quite amazingly strong with hooks, totems, and gates for just a yellow.
- The keys I'm not sure on their value as purples and iris, though tying the unlock and hatch auras together is pretty good. Left Behind feels like it'd need something though.
It is undeniably better than current, and the concept itself is pretty sound.
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I dunno, I like variety and being able to have a number of different options. I'd agree to maybe reworking or combining existing add-ons, but personally I'd prefer an increase in numbers with more variety, otherwise it becomes dull and predictable.
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Not that the current addon system is predictable? Like why you should use silent addon over charge addon for toolbox. By then silent addon doesnt exist is still
For killers, I think the same type of addon should go. Like Trapper gloves and fastened tool do the same thing but one better than another. What I mean is the Gloves should go. So better addon can spawn more
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It's only predictable because of the player, not the add-on. The problem is some add-ons cannot give feedback. That one toolbox add-on which reduces the distance of repair sounds by 8m has probably worked before, but people won't have feedback to confirm it.
Anyway, it still stands that a variety of add-ons can make the game more interesting. Some do need reworks, but if there were only - say - 5 add-ons per item, it just doesn't feel good.
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Im pretty sure even if no repairing sounds, the addon is still useless, there is progression on Gen, and killer would still come closer to check if there is being regressed or not, then coming for a kick and spotting the survivor there.
For killers, lets use Myers for example, he has 3 addons that increasing stalk rate, 3 addons that linger aura after stalking, 4 addons that increasing duration, 3 addons increasing movement while stalking .ect. The number of addon is many, but the types arent.
- Just merge them into one (linger aura after stalking for 4sec may, both EWI and EWII)
- or remove the weaker addon and keep the strongest(increase the duration by ???sec addon type)
- Brown addons nowaday are too weak to worth an addon slot (increase lung range at EWI and reduce TR…), merge them too.
So instead of 20 addons, most that you never use. Can be merged down to 10 from removing the duplicate addons.
Edit: can be the same with offering. Honestly those brown, yellow BP offering should go too. Just keep the green one.
They need to clean up Blood web.
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I dp agree with the Bloodweb needing a little less litter. Also, I do agree with merging. I just like more choice - a personal preference. OR maybe 10 add-ons per item type. Is that what you were refering to? Because actually that's a decent selection to choose from. I'd be fine with that, so long as there were some fun ones as well.
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Unless all of them are 8 unique addon (with other 2 iri), no 2 or more add-ons are duplicated versions.
Here is my visual of what I mean for Myers add-on, or killers in general. May be add a new Green addon, make it 6 Green, 2 Purple, 2 Iri.
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I'd agree with this. I'm a big enjoyer of Maps from time to time, but man, they can be so obnoxious to build into with very specific addon requirements before they'll actually function - and even then they don't do everything you might want. Did you know it's impossible to make Maps track chests outside of perks like Detective's Hunch? Maddening.
I have a duo of posts about how I'd change both items I can dredge up if there's interest, but to simplify what I think should happen, it's generally in line with the idea that each item is supposed to have a clear goal, and a clear set of perk analogues. To me, Maps track static objectives (with their perk analogues being things like Visionary, Small Game, Plunderer's Instinct, etc) and Keys track players (with their perk analogues being things like Bond, Empathy, Dark Sense, Kindred, etc).
So, standardise them and make the baseline of what these items do more consistent, so they don't range from "outright useless" to "genuinely really strong".
Also, take killer power stuff off the Red Twine, it's overkill.
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They need to delete Milky Glass and Weaved Keyring or rework them. I hate seeing them in the bloodweb. And I especially hate unavoidably forced to get them.
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I think you could have more than 9, but what I'd like are add-ons more like The Wraith. The Wraith has a lot of interesting add-ons which makes for some rather unique plays. Compare those to the likes of The Executioner, where there just isn't the variety.
Personally, there should be compounded add-ons, as shown. I'd like more game-changing add-ons too, which allows a killer different methods of playstyle. The Trapper has aura-reading add-ons, tactical add-ons, stealth add-ons and such. The Hag has add-ons which turns traps into blockades, or teleport at will (without triggering) and so on. I wish they did this for more killers.
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You saw what I meant with the image, that killers have too many add-on with the same type, just different numbers. Keep the best one and remove the rest. Wraith has similar problem (3 addons that reduce uncloaking time).
For me, game changing add-on should be basekit that you can pick and choose from power slot. Since most of them have downside along with it. Mirrors addons for Myers are example, Purple bag Trapper too, he should not start with all traps, but the downside of addon should not take an addon slot. Let Trapper picks between starting with 2 traps and able to pick up; or 10 traps and not able to pick up.
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Yes, they are useless.
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