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About hooks respawning
Does that mean that bleedouts will no longer count as kills in MMR?
Because the only reason I considered a bleedout to be a "legitimate" kill was because there were literally no hooks nearby. I would still argue that it is a stalemate, and thus should be considered an MMR tie, but with hooks now respawning, I dont really see any reason for Bleedouts to be considered regular kills. It only discourages hooking a survivor in a 2v1, and unless there is a different fix being secretly made to fix hardcore slugging in 2v1's, I think making a bleedout count as an MMR tie would at least prevent most people from slugging forever as the slugged survivor can hide somewhere randomly.
There are some extremely niche cases where someone will be forced to bleed out, but those cases are less niche than a survivor escaping through the hatch.
Comments
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I don't disagree with you on making slugged kills not count the same once the hook respawn change comes into effect
However, I don't think people slugging intentionally will care one way or the other with how this affects their 'mmr' in all honestly
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Bleed outs have never been confirmed by the devs to be considered kills or affect MMR. Everything in the game points towards them not being considered kills. Players can't get an adept, tome, or daily challenges done through bleed outs, and for every bleed out a player does, they get knocked down a rank from the Merciless Killer rating.
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Bleeding out a survivor does count as a kill.
There are only two ways a survivor is considered to have escaped: door or hatch. The door is considered as that survivor 'winning' for MMR, and the hatch is considered 'neutral' for MMR, or a tie.
In any other case, whether by hook sacrifice, mori, entity does it themselves (EGC, or 1 hour game timeout), or even bleed out is considered a 'kill' by the game for both stats and MMR.
Having bleed outs not considered kills as you suggest would only increase slugging and would be incredibly stupid. This also does nothing to deter slugging for the 4k (or as you call it 'in a 2v1') because that is done to deny hatch escape and guarantee the 4k. Literally nothing about hatch is changing, so this practice only becomes more frustrating for the survivor, who is probably already close to a hook and is only getting their time wasted because the killer feels entitled to a 4k. None of that changes whatsoever.
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all kills count as for killer win condition. no exceptions.
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I've said for awhile they need to make them not count. It won't eliminate slugging but I do think it'll help.
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Great idea, so now when killers do this, their MMR will go down and continue to go down until they face worse and worse teams.
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I'm curious how you think this will help reduce slugging.
Since most people, including the devs, consider any survivor death to be a 'kill', saying effectively "hey, here's a way to kill survivors without making your games harder" seems like a pretty certain way to encourage people to slug more.
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It wouldn't help because making them not count just means a killer will get rewarded for slugging with easier matches due to gaining less mmr.
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I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here and say this: if you don't like bleeding out (I'm assuming this is mostly because the killer slugs to combat the hatch) then don't crawl away into some far off corner or the basement. Which is more important to you, not bleeding out or the small chance you get that hatch?
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Someone who crawls to a far-off corner or the basement doesn't want the hatch, they want to 1. deny the killer points, and 2. deny the killer any achievement or Tome challenge they may be attempting. Bleed outs do not count for kills when it comes to adepts, the new Vecna achievement, kill survivor Tome challenges, etc. It's a choice made out of spite, as the survivor is both unhappy they're slugged and also ensuring they remain slugged for the full four minutes.
Ever since it became possible for killers to close the hatch, it is so rare to crawl to the hatch and escape I could probably count the number of times it happens in a year—to anyone within all the matches I play on both sides—on one hand.
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But you can still force bleed outs? Sabo, Breakdown, the 60 second cooldown... This update does not fully eliminate hook deadzones, it only helps, people can still bleed out especially when they crawl away and hide during that time. It should not count as a tie, that would be ridiculous...
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It is quite difficult to hear Ada's moaning as she crawls away and disappears somewhere, and there are not a few matches where you can't find her, but still, is it a killer to be punished?
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Who cares about MMR? It's not a reward...
Bleed out should definitely count as kill, so full slugging bleed out killer won't get stuck in low MMR farming babies.
I would do exactly opposite and count it twice to increase their MMR more...
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I don't think it would be a good idea to make bleedouts not count towards MMR. If they did that, then killers could use this as a way to stall their MMR in a range where they have easy matches while still winning. Meaning, that griefing would then have a legitimate use.
We'd replace one issue with another and the new issue would be even worse. At least, if they win and their MMR goes up, they will get stronger opponents who may be better suited to deal with this.
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Exactly. It’s similar to the people who tunnel their way into a super high MMR. With this, people would slug their way into super low MMRs so that they’re always getting 4Ks and making games miserable for other players.
At least with tunneling, you put yourself into a high MMR and then get rocked by better teams since you only relied on tunneling as a playstyle. With slugging that only benefits griefing and toxic people.
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except, they have. Exit gate escape increases survivor MMR and decreases killer MMR. Hatch doesnt increase or decrease MMR for either. Anything else increases killer MMR and decreases survivor MMR, because technically speaking, its still a kill. DC's would count as the worst possible outcome for the player DC'ing.
Since you cant get adepts, tomes or dailies, it should logically not count as an MMR increase, but it does. It's why the highest ranking Nurses slug their kills to death as it creates the biggest pressure. If it didnt count for MMR, they should get lowered for every survivor that manages to escape.0 -
Then the killer has even less reasons to hook. Killers need reasons to hook over slugging. Like in 2 v 1's, if the killer wants a 4k, the best scenario is to slug. If they get picked up, you get info, but you get more time to search for the other survivor than hooking, because survivors can reduce the hook sacrifice time from 2 minutes to 20 seconds, while they cant reduce the bleedout timer by any means, nor can they do anything else that would actively create pressure either. Hatch used to be the answer to this scenario.
So either they need to bring back hatch as an actual threat in the 2v1 if more than 1 gen remains, or they need to make slugged survivors be capable of still pressuring gens, even at a reduced rate.0 -
Thats not logically sound tho, if I can crawl away to a point that you can no longer find me, you made a bad decision and should have hooked me.
I should be rewarded for denying you a sacrifice by suffering for 4 minutes, you shouldnt be rewarded for making a bad decision3 -
I care about MMR, because the higher your MMR gets as a survivor, the less you can play the game because your slugtime increases.
Besides that, denying MMR for bleed outs doesnt mean they get stuck in low MMR, but it does mean their games will also get super boring as they get good at what they do, but the survivors become less of a challenge. They would be forced to hook to keep enjoying themselves.
Another solution is simply giving survivors the ability to pick themselves up or pressure gens in some way, because rewarding a killer for putting a survivor through the most boring gamemechanic is ridiculous by 2024 standards. Its literally the most outdated mechanic in need of either punishing the killer for slugging too long or reward the survivor for being slugged too long. With hooks respawning, there is literally no excuse to not hook.1 -
I usually don't go back looking if someone's crawled away. I'm fine with survivors bleeding out if that's what they choose. I go find the hatch and wait on it. Some survivors crawl to me. Otherwise, I close the hatch when the survivor bleeds out so I get the BP but don't trigger Adrenaline if they're running it.
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Killers feel winning because survivors die. Not really because of gaining MMR (its only because killing survivors by hooking also gain MMR so most people think they want to gain MMR)
You idea would make killers slugging and greatly rewarded.
Its why Im against MMR gaining by hook count. Because those who camp and get 3-4 kills with 3-4 hooks would drop MMR play against easier teams.
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The devs have never specifically said that bleed outs are considered kills. They have said kills and escapes raise/lower MMR, and have defined kills as sacrifice, mori, times-up, head trap, etc but have never specifically said anything about bleed outs. Look at streamers who habitually bleed out survivors, they play at low MMR and it never appears to go up.
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Get ez 4k against soloQ players.
Make them bleed out while nodding and walking on them.
You get 4k, but since bleedout doesn't count as win, your MMR decreases.
Next game you get even weaker team, making rolling over them even ezier.
Rinse and repeat.
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Given that the wiki states that dying in the trial counts as a loss I would assume you are wrong there, it does not matter how you die, as long as you don't make it out through the gate (win) or hatch (tie) it is a loss for the survivor and a win for the killer...
That would also be really stupid if the devs did not take that possibility into account.
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That's exactly what I'm saying, that this change would make no sense.
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Why though? You rather want to bleed out in a corner for 4 minutes instead of dying quicker on hook?
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So by slugging survivors I can intentionally lower my MMR while also killing everyone in the worst imaginable way possible
Do you actually think it is good, I honestly don't think so
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If you read the wiki you will get to know that bleeding people out also counts as a win...
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And I'm talking about the situation when it doesn't
Well wait, it wasn't exactly a suggestion, rather a question
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OK, yeah in that case ofc that's a terrible idea... You could just force a bleedout by entering every match with plot twist, no mither, power struggle and flip flop or distortion and some other random perk... Just go down in a random corner and bleed out... If that was possible that would be the dumbest thing to make to live in this game...
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Because a lot of those streamers are already at one of the higher MMR's and due to matchmaking not having enough opponents in their bracket they will face lower mmr. Or those streamers derank on purpose.
Why do I assume this? Because tournament Nurses never hook, and those Nurses are only found at the highest MMR. They got there by slugging their way up.0 -
Kinda, slugging in general has needed a rework since 2018 when DS Unbreakable became Meta to combat slugging and tunneling. It's been problematic for a significant time.
If slugging would count as a tie, that means it doesnt intentionally lower your MMR, but if its your only means to killing, yeah, it does lower your MMR. And then slugging will become a bigger issue to a larger % of the people, at which point BHVR will be forced to rework it anyway.
The simplest solution is just give survivors any way of picking themselves up if they reached 95% recovery. Be it crawling to gens, be it having to crawl to a dropped pallet, be it having to crawl to another downed survivor and help each other up. Just ANY way. Because then slugging stops having as much pressure as a hook, giving killers more reasons to hook. Right now, the only reason to not slug is that it takes longer to kill and has some risk, but if you have a killer (like Nurse or Blight) who can traverse the map quickly, keep survivors injured and just never hook while slugging, there isnt really any risk. If they pick up a survivor, you just go there and slug them again, then chase the person who picked them up.
There needs to be a basekit solution to slugging (aswell as a better basekit mechanic against tunnelling) for survivors to be in a position that they do not NEED to rely on comms to face a Nurse.0 -
I thought bleedouts never counted as win for MMR?
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Why would they not?
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'Cause the killer's primary goal is to kill survivors via sacrificing them on hooks so they could feed the entity and bleeding them out was always considered as lose for devout emblem
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For the devout system… The current one only takes deaths and escapes into account, it does not matter how they die… Moris also didn't count for the devout system, did you also think mori'ing someone does not count for mmr?
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Pretty sure BHVR would understand that good killers having lower MMR as a problem, and would just make it so bleeding out counts as kills for MMR
And I hope devs to not do anything stupid like basekit unbreakable, because game just doesn't work with it
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They already count it towards mmr.
And its not basekit unbreakable, more like old No Mither. There is a huge difference between a 20 second self-pickup, and a 50-60 second self-pickup. Thats a massive difference.
And yeah, perks like Unbreakable and Boon: Exponential will need adjustments, like needing to charge up tokens for speed based on how long you've been slugged. Unbreakable would be amazing with that rework if it consumed your bleedout timer to speed up self-recovery. Exponential could do something similar, but less draining since its a boon.
And yes, the game does work with that, people would actually have reasons to not slug since 50-60 seconds a survivor can self-pickup. Unbreakable and Exponential are a LOT less powerful because they speed up the bleedout, but they will still be insanely powerful because they can always quickly pick themselves up, forcing the killer to hook (which is a good thing, its a risk/reward for both sides).0 -
I think that might actually make some killers slug if they can just keep their mmr low that way. I don't think everyone want to go up there on high mmr facing the best swf:s.
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Not giving killers mmr for bleedouts will actually make the game worse for survivors because killers will intentionally slug to keep their mmr low. It's called smurfing.
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Staying where the killer left me just means they come back and pick me up moments before I'm about to bleed out. If I have the game focus muted while I wait for the killer to find the last survivor/get bored/finally hook me then they get to kee me in the game an extra few minutes until I switch back to the game and wiggle out.
Let me hold Shift (Run button) in the dying state to bleed out faster.
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Like killers already dont do that by going for 8 hooks
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why shouldnt bleedouts count as kill for mmr?
the whole point of MMR is to try to put better players in matches with better players instead of artificially keeping killers that are so much better than survivors they face in the same MMR as them just because they dont hook people and bleed them out instead.
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I'm not sure why you think punishing an invisible number the player can't see will somehow stop killers from 4 man bleedouts.
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There's a big difference. Letting survivors escape is a loss for killer whereas bleeding out is a win but doesn't increase MMR.
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Survivors bleeding out being counted as a kill is effectively a punishment for sluggers. Eventually they'll hit an MMR where they can't compete and get humiliated during some of their games. The same happens with tunnelers and, prior to basekit BT, campers. It's not a reward to go up in MMR as you can't see the number, get no benefits from it, and just face sweatier opponents.
It's not a good solution as it's not fun for the Survivors in the short term nor is it fun in the long term for the Killer. It is, however, better than giving sweaty players easier and easier opponents.
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Bleeding out DOES increase MMR. It shouldnt
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………Did you just suggest that slugged survivors can still do gens??
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yea, not at a 100% rate, but one of the main reason killers dont hook, is because slugged survivors are essentially hooked survivors. they cannot pressure the game at all.
Giving slugged survivors a 50% debuff to pressure gens, would give reason for killers to hook. Slugging needs a buff to a point where hooking is more preferable than slugging, and slugging would only be done out of sheer neccesity and slugging survivors next to each other should be detrimental
As for the reason why to pressure gens, well, in a 2v1, self-pickups/still being able to pressure the gen is the only way killers dont slug for 4 minutes to deny hatch. Another option is to open up hatch the moment someone is downed for 10 seconds or more, with the only way the killer can close it is by hooking a survivor or hoping they get picked up. But that is very difficult to code in.1 -
I absolutely don't want a system where people that want to keep their mmr from getting "too high" are encouraged to bleed people out, actually. If someone insists on doing that that they can go for 8hook 0k if they want.
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