Evader emblem progress needs to change
Getting pips in red rank as survivor is not easy. If you don't interact with the killer during the entire match you don't get any points in Evader. Well, I "evaded" the killer the entire match and wasn't even hit once. This resulted in me being rewarded with absolutely nothing in Evader. I think Evader should progress based on how long you actually do avoid interaction with the killer. If you escape the trial with little to no interaction with the killer this emblem should always be red. If you do interact with the killer and escape chases you should also gain progress in this category. It should work both ways. Having to force an interaction with the killer who fails to even find you during the entire match isn't really all that fair. I should've gained at least 1 pip for this match.
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Nope, I don't think stealthy playstyle should be encouraged like that, it is just the most boring experience ever as killer to have to check for people hiding bushes and what not, especially given that tracking perks can be fully avoided with the right perk layout... Aimlessly wandering around the map without finding anybody because everybody runs distortion calm spirit is one of the worst experiences in the game.
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Yet those perks exist for a reason. Isn't this reason to not being found?
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Well I would argue that bad perk design is a thing, perks can be unhealthy on many levels...
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True. But iirc Devs stated that stealthy playstyle is and should be one of valid gameplays. Just like valid technique is camping and slugging, which are actually more harmful than stealth.
But either way, stealth is valid way to play a game, unless until BHVR decide otherwise.
And if Devs wants stealth being valid, then maybe evader emblem would really benefit from being stealthy
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Being across the map from the killer and not being found isn't considered skillful and thus pip-worthy. I would play that way sometimes when I first started DbD, and after a while I realized that was both boring and devoid of skill.
If you spend time in the killer's terror radius without being found, you get evader emblem points for that. I've gotten iri evader emblems while hardly ever being seen by the killer not by stealthing on the other side of the map but by being stealthy near them.
I've said for a long time that emblems are one of the many band-aids in this game. BHVR designed a game where they hype up "Oh, we like players to have agency!" so players can play however they want. However, to try to get players to play in a way that's fun for other people in the match, they created emblems. If all four survivors stealth around the opposite side of the map all match and avoid the killer, that's boring for the killer, so the emblem doesn't reward that. If someone gets hooked and you let them die, the altruism emblem suffers.
In other words, BHVR designed the game so you can play however you want. But if you're interested in pipping up, you have to play in a way that takes the other people in the match (even your opposition) into account.
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The emblems only work towards BP every month, so I don't think it matters too much...
As for what the devs say, we'll they have weird ideas all the time, their status does not make it so they are unable to be wrong, it just leads to no change despite them being wrong.
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I agree that devs often are wrong even towards their own game. But since they designed game this way, or more like - if they intended the game to be this way… then even if one feels its bad/boring/needs change, game is still intended to be that way.
Thats why i dont blame killers who camp and tunnel me, i blame BHVR that they allow for that.
Same is applied here - stealth my be bad for the game, but its designed by devs, so players may use it, and if devs decided that pleyers may use it, then emblems could take it into account.0 -
Stealthy? I was just doing gens the entire time while the killer was chasing everyone else. What am I supposed to do? Run up to the killer and hope they chase me instead? As I said, I shouldn't have to FORCE an interaction with the killer to gain progress in Evader.
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To some degree you should, if everyone else ist dead on hook then you should take two hook stages to prolong the game turning into a 3v1…
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This makes no sense at all. And what if everyone isn't dead on hook? Again, this is about having to force myself to interact with the killer regardless of the situation just to get points in evader. If I remember most of us escaped that match. I had no need to do this.
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I was just describing a situation where you are basically supposed to do that...
I don't think every game needs to give you a pip depending on how it went...
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Survivors should be rewarded for surviving. Its very hard to get a pip once you get into red ranks. You can have a very long match and not even get a pip its so hard. Its really frustrating to go through a match like that and get nothing for it other than BPs.
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Isn't what you are asking for already in the game? You get points towards the emblem system for being in the killers terror radius? Is it just about the amount?
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The problem I have with the Evader emblem is that its too situational and circumstantial to be an emblem category. If a survivor has a match where they don't interact with the killer very much they shouldn't lose out on points because of that. The evader emblem should probably be replaced with something else or be reworked to gain progress from other ways than just killer interaction or being near the killer. Survivors shouldn't have to follow the killer around to be in their terror radius for points when its more valuable for the team to be progressing the match.
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Lightbringer rewards progressing the match. Altruism rewards helping your teammates. Unbroken rewards protecting yourself. And Evader rewards interacting with the killer, whether that's actual chase or just being in his terror radius. The killer is the opposition. I imagine most people don't play survivor to sit on gens, they play it to verse the killer, and only one emblem is even based on killer interaction.
Reaching iri 1 is the best it's ever been since we can no longer de-pip. I suck at survivor and even I'm iri 1 right now. If getting even a silver in Evader is a consistent problem for you, then that's an issue with your playstyle. If it's not a consistent problem and it's just this one match where you feel robbed, well, we all have matches like that with all the emblems. I hate getting to the end of a match and seeing I was a hair off in one emblem from getting a pip.
I wish we could see our emblem progress within the match. That would help a lot.
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But you also should not get points for doing absolutely nothing when you did not even see the killer the entire match, the category should not be a free pip when you did nothing to achieve it, I think the basic idea is alright... Hide or get chased.
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You just proved my point. The category is the problem. Not the player. There is no argument to be made that makes any sense for a survivor to stop doing a generator and run to the killer just so you can hide in their terror radius for points in a category. In fact that is gameplay sabotage because getting Evader points in this regard does nothing but put the team at risk of being eliminated since its one less survivor progressing the match. Like really think about what you're saying here.
Gens are necessary. Altruism is necessary. Unbroken happens naturally from literally avoiding the killer, and then Evader punishes you for it. It makes absolutely no sense at all. There is no logic or reason to hinder match progression to gain points in Evader if I just so happen to not have the killer chase me during the match. Perhaps in these situations, progress in the other emblems should count towards progress in Evader. Even still, altruism doesn't always happen a lot for every survivor. The point is, this emblem's progression is problematic and forces survivors to play the game in an unnatural way in this situation to gain progress.
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You kind of misunderstood my point... You should have to earn the category in a match that is not necessarily easy, if you just roll over a killer and he gets 0 hooks, you should not pip from that, because it was clearly not a balanced match. The match should provide some form of a struggle for both sides, meaning the survivor side should be put under pressure in the sense of being at risk of getting caught while being stealthy but barely didn't get caught or should lead the killer on a chase. And that is exactly what the category does, so no I didn't prove your point... Your argument was basically that you should not have to cheese the category, which you don't have to, because in a normal match that is not completely one-sided you will eventually get chased, because you need to get the killers attention to protect your teammates who are on death hook, whether you get chased for a long time or get rid of him by pulling a stealth play is your choice, you can also try to get him in your direction and make him waste time trying to find you, but you should be required to interact with him, it is not a single player game and you should not be rewarded for not interacting with the killerplayer at all...
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I would agree that the Evader emblem progress needs adjustments, but not in the way that is being proposed here. I believe that long chases should give you greater Evader emblems, but if you go down at any point, even after a five-gen chase, your Evader rank suffers. This was something I misunderstood when I was struggling to earn Gold/Iri Evader emblems for tome challenges; trying to have longer chases rather than escaping the chase.
To give an example, I had a challenge to earn two Iri Evader emblems, and I really struggled with it. Then I had a match against Tombstone Myers. Knowing that he had it, I jumped into lockers at the first sound of his terror radius. I didn't even care if I alerted him to my location with the rushed actions, I willingly let him hook me. I played that way throughout most of the match, not doing much of anything else. When I finally died, I was baffled to have earned the first Iri Evader emblem (even if my other emblems suffered).
TL;DR, the key to getting better Evader emblems is to escape short chases rather than running the Killer for a long time and then going down. And that is something Survivors cannot control, as the Killer chooses whether to keep chasing that Survivor, or drop the chase and go after someone else. And that is why the Evader emblem progress needs adjustments.
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If killer have no terror radius for most of the time, it's hard to be in his terror radius.
And if I'm the only person who is doing gens, I should not be forced to interact with the killer even if teammates are on death hooks.
Emblems should be available for players playing the game not just for certain scenarios.
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Yep. Exactly this. People keep looking past the point I was making. I was the player progressing the match. I wasn't trying to hide from the killer. It just didn't happen for most of the match for me. You get Lightbringer points for running the killer while others are doing gens if I remember, so why can't Evader work the same way? Seems like a very one sided system.
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Because the game doesn't feel the need to encourage people to interact with gens, and whether or not survivors do interact with gens doesn't affect the generators' gameplay experience. The gens aren't players. Just like people say tunneling survivors is different from gen-rushing because survivors are players and gens aren't. The killer matters in that they're a player and the game wants you to interact with the opposing player.
It's not a single player game, it's not a gen repair sim. Sitting on a gen hitting skill checks isn't difficult whereas keeping the killer busy in chase while gens get done does take skill. Pipping is supposed to mean you had a challenging match and did well. I don't see how a match where you never saw the killer could be challenging enough to be pip-worthy. I've had matches where two or three survivors came in with the intention of messing with the killer, and they kept the killer busy the entire match while I did gens and the match was definitely not challenging for me.
The point is, this emblem's progression is problematic and forces survivors to play the game in an unnatural way in this situation to gain progress.
Needing to play the game in an "unnatural way" shouldn't be a common situation because you should be facing killers who are challenging, and a challenging killer will require you to interact with them.
The pip system is structured to reward you for playing against opponents at your level. If killers stomp survivors who are way below their level and don't present a challenge, the killers' pips also suffer. Because why do players need to be rewarded with a pip on top of an easy win?
Edit: I do agree with the earlier sentiment from someone else that long chases should be rewarded. I actually thought they already were rewarded, and I thought killers were penalized for long chases. Sometimes it's hard to tell with this game's black box of an emblem system, though.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on0 -
Honestly? I agree. Kinda.
I don't know what would be good and fair for Evader, but out of all the emblems it's an issue to break gold on at times just from natural game progression. It should be looked into a bit.
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I… kind of agree? And Evader plays out differently on indoor/two-story maps than it does outdoors - sometimes you get rewarded anyway even though you spent little to no time involved with the killer.
But on the other hand, I feel rewarding Evader for avoiding the killer via staying far away isn't healthy, because it encourages objectively selfish gameplay.
There's nothing wrong with doing gens while a cracked teammate or a 3-man SWF loops the killer for days, and sometimes a game plays out where there's no reason to ever go near the killer. But that's pretty rare, and only happens when a.) all four survivors are hiding, b.) tombstone Myers, or c.) the killer is getting their teeth kicked in. Then you have the opposite case… I get so many teammates that do gens and urban evade away whenever the killer comes near, and they have no hooks when their first and second teammates are dying on their third. That is objectively bad game sense and that playstyle shouldn't be rewarded.
And yeah, sometimes you get teammates who won't do gens because they only want to loop or follow the killer around hoping for a flashlight save, but in my experience it's way more common that the same people get caught and chased out because they just aren't hiding and are therefore the only ones the killer runs into - when they're not being tunneled outright. Those people aren't on gens because they're getting targeted too much, and the hider needs to make themselves available for chase to increase the longevity of their 4man team. But they don't care, because their plan was hatch anyway.
I guess I'm content to leave it the way it is because the emblem system already works off this dynamic of 'you can have a good match, but if you didn't do a bit of everything, you won't get a good grade.' It's flawed, but it is the precedent. I've had games where I escaped but depipped because the killer spent half the match chasing me, then I got left on hook for ~100 seconds while teammates slammed gens, and almost no one else got hooked, so I had no benevolent or lightbringer. Still a skillful game. But without depipping stalling the process nowadays, there's always next match… I would say in most matches, you would help your team by taking chase or otherwise making risky plays close to the killer, and it isn't unreasonable for the emblem to ask you to.
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You have yet to make any good argument as to why I should throw myself before the killer just so I can make sure I get Evader points. This is not a survivor problem. Its a game problem. The Evader emblem needs to be reworked so that its progress happens more naturally. It happens naturally to an extent, but if I do 3+ gens and escape without ever coming in contact with the killer I shouldn't be punished for that.
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I shouldn't be punished for that.
But you aren't punished. You can't de-pip anymore, so you're no longer punished for going against a killer below your level; you're just not rewarded for it.
There are three types of rewards given in each match. There are Bloodpoints for performing actions. There's XP which is a reward for your time spent in the match. And there are Emblems which reward playing in a manner that takes not just yourself but your teammates and the killer into account. If you play in a match against someone at your own level, the emblems happen pretty naturally. If you play against someone below your level, it doesn't happen naturally because you're stomping the killer and it's not going to give you a pip on top of the easy win. The emblem system doesn't punish you for bad matches with a de-pip, but it also doesn't reward people who tank their MMR on purpose for easy wins (and some players do do this, it used to be a huge problem).
You got Bloodpoints, XP, and a win out of the match you showed a screencap for. You didn't de-pip. Three different rewards for that match and no punishment.
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I have almost 4000 hours in DBD. I don't care about BPs or XP anymore. Those come naturally just from playing the game. I'm not saying I should get a iri Evader in this situation, but I also shouldn't get little to nothing either. At the very least it should be a silver emblem for escaping without being touched by the killer.
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But there's another emblem that rewards you for that exact scenario. You just described iri Unbroken. A player with high Evader very likely can't get max Unbroken because that only happens if you never get downed.
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