Suicide on Hook Prevention: Lore Accurate and Kobe
BHVR have stated they would like to address this problem, but don't have a good solution to fix it. I myself have pondered this many times, and every solution I came up with was unsatisfactory... however today I had an idea centered on a new state that might work...
The principle behind making it easier to prevent SoH players from leaving is: it is more beneficial to keep them in the game as long as possible to perhaps convince them to start playing again, or to leave and get a bot. This is always preferable to letting them leave you a survivor down, even if they go round wasting pallets and helping the killer (you can actually report them for this). It is ALWAYS in your best intetest to force them to stay in the trial as long as possible if they refuse to DC.
The Idea - Self unhook attempts Summons the Entity
I propose to add a new hook state that runs in tandem with stage 1, that I'm gonna call the "Summoned" Phase. So we have Summoning (1a), Summoned (1b) and Struggling (2).
The Summoned (1b) Phase is represented by the Entity tendril appearing and occupying the survivor, represented by the survivor holding 1 hand on the hook, and 1 on the main digit of the Entity claw reaching for them. Basically a sort of half Struggle state animation.
- The first time a survivor is hooked they are put in the Summoning (1a) phase. The second time will put them in the Struggling (2) phase same as now.
- Self Unhook attempts have the same 4% chance they have now, but no longer cause the summon/sacrifice meter to go down.
- Each failed Self Unhook attempt now causes survivors to gain a stack of Entity's attention, marked by a yellow block 33% the size of the sacrifice bar, and set on the right side of the bar. This is seen by you, other survivors and killers (no real difference to now).
- After 3 failed attempts the Entity spawns onto the hook and the survivor enters the Summoned (1b) phase. This phase has no skill checks and the Entity prevents further attempts to self unhook so the survivor must ensure more torment. The phase 1 timer carries on as normal.
- Each stack of Entity Attention will lose 19.66 seconds off the survivors Struggle (2) Phase timer. This means 1, 2, 3 stacks upon a second hook or the Summon timer expiring to reach phase 2 will leave only 40.33s, 20.66s, 1s before the survivor is sacrificed.
- When only 2 survivors are left alive or the gates are powered, The Entity is already sated with the punishment inflicted in the trial, and will immediately take the survivor to phase 2 after 3 failed unhook attempts.
- Rework Slippery Meat (Or if not, give 6 attempts and only cost 5s of the Sacrifice Timer per attempt... as this perk could use a buff).
Effects
- Longer Time to Save a SoH - A big problem of SoH is there are times you have to immediately drop what you are doing to get to them in time. This prevents this from happening and makes it so preventing a SoH is much easier for the survivor team to try and get a bot instead.
- Puts the Killer in charge of releasing a SoH from the game - It is worth noting that you cannot make a player play. If they want to die, they can make it happen by just running to the killer... however if its made more difficult to SOH as survivors can effectively stop you, and if it's placed in the killers hands as whether or not to let a player leave by hooking them again, the less appealing SoH is. A 2 min DC penalty beats 5 minutes getting teabagged on the floor.
- Doesn't Affect SoH vs. Griefing Killers - There are occcassions where leaving is warranted, such as if you are being targetted and harassed. You can just leave ofc, that is an option, but if you must SoH 2nd stage can go by very fast if youre left alone to die by fellow survivors. Truthfully you'll likely be slugged anyway if someone wants to troll you.
- Community Policing - As I've said before, BHVR want to stop SoH but can't... the only way to stem it is to make it hard to do and remove a portion of the power out of the SoH players hands... and the only hands who can prevent it is the DBD community themselves. There are plenty of players who grief with no means of retribution, this would be one of the few ways for the community to prevent a griefer.
- Kobe is unaffected - Allowing Kobe at all times leaves the purpose of Kobe in tact, with just as significant a penalty to discourage it. If you don't self unhook, you now leave your team with a much harder or even impossible time saving you suring second stage... but its still there as a desperate last gasp if needed.
- Suicide for Hatch or End Game Just Leave is actually better - Deliberately dying for hatch or communicating to your team to just leave is actually faster. If only 2 survivors are alive or gates are powered, your 3 unhook attempts result in you immediately going to Sacrifice stage with only 1 second until you are Sacrificed… no need to wait through skill checks.
- Thematically satisfying for the Entity - The Entity wants the maximum amount of fear and suffering from you, it makes sense it would halt you from trying to wiggle off hook unaided.
- One Downside - Trying to unhook as a last ditch before you go to phase 2 would cost you 20s... but more often than not, if this is happening you'll be unhooked and then be on 2 hooks stages anyway.
This solution to what I can see is the least intrusive to the mechanics of DBD, keeping most things intact and usable, and still within player agency, but making it so immediately taking yourself out of the game is simply not possible.
Even at its fastest, a 1 min DC penalty is better than 1 minute stuck on a hook and then risking 4 mins stuck slugged on the floor.
Comments
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So basically make that self unhook attempts no longer progress towards second phase. Got it, and I agree with this.
But I would not reduce second phase timer, make all times consistent.
And there is also a problem with failing multiple skill checks on second phase, which also contribute to hook suicides. So maybe each failed skill check increse time to next skill check.
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So just free unhook attempts is what I'm getting from this. No thank you.
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I wouldn't exactly call them "free" since someone who uses all 3 attempts (but doesn't succeed in unhooking themselves) won't be able to try more AND will die extremely quickly when hooked the 2nd time due to reduced sacrifice timer.
All in all, this suggestion doesn't change much, someone that systematically tries to kobe 3 times will still die much quicker than someone who doesn't since the 2nd hook will kill them super quickly (appeasing their need for not wanting to face a certain Killer in most cases, and going next in case of a bming Killer in some cases) but it prevents people from going next on 1st hook non-stop unless their teammates leave them there.
I honestly think this is a good idea, if BHVR won't remove the DC penalty (and sadly it would create more issues than it solves) then adding an anti-unaliving on 1st hook measure that still punishes overuse would be pretty good.
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The problem with making self hook attempts not affect second phase is there is literally no penalty to doing it... you can just try to unhook yourself every time for free.
The idea is not really meant to completely prevent every method of SoH trial, but it does make it harder, and it means the onus to get out via SoH isnt solely on the SoH player, the other survivors and killer have to let them leave, which should at least reduce the SoH attempts.
Think you misunderstood my guy... For free? It basically costs you a whole hook stage for all 3 and makes resetting for heals much tighter
Post edited by UndeddJester on0 -
Cheers that man, that was precisely my goal... to come up with something that in the grand scheme leaves everything mostly the same, able to kobe, able to die for hatch, but prevents an instant checkout at the start.
I doesn't fix everything, a tunneled player is liable to still quit... but the relative damage is a lot lower in that case, and is a little more understandable to quit at that point.
Initially I was toying with 3 unhook attempts gives you another hook stage, but then I thought there was this issue of needing a penalty to not get 2 "free" unhook attempts every hook. Then there was the issue of having 3 attempts lose an extra hook stage somehow... but somehow applying it without yet being in the Struggling phase... Seemed like it would get messy...
So a penalty where the timer gets reduced seemed the least intrusive and easiest to implement method. It also makes logical sense for the lore... once the Entity is actively trying to sacrifice you, it accelerates the process by drawing its attention...
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I don't like these complicated attempts at fixing this issue that are long lists of things. Just remove self-unhook. There should not be RNG in the game in this form, it's just unhealthy for many different reasons. You being able to kobe should only be with the help of perks like Deliverance. Reducing the gap between SWF and Solo Q would help a long way.
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Successful self unhook attempt could grant broken for 10s +10s for each attempt. Then it would not be free.
But reducing time of second phase would achieve nothing since this is exactly the point of hook suicide.
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I agree... even if you are trying to go for the 4% kobe, more often then not, your changes are lower and non existing. It would be more better off to just simple remove the self unhooking base kit and makes unhooking perks like Deliverance and Slippery meat get significantly buffs to make them the go to self unhooking perks.
Not sure what I would do with the whole 2nd stage struggling states, as some survivor tend to rely on the whole failing skill checks to get out of the match early and leave early, so their teammates can find the hatch in advance.
A good fix for that, would be if there are two survivors left in the trial and if 1st survivor is already on 2nd stage and the 2nd survivor simple is unable to go for the save in such a state. They could Buff the hatch to spawn open for the 2nd survivor to make the killer go leave to find the hatch, and if the killer manages to find the hatch, they can simply start the Endgame Collapse while risking the 2nd survivor going for the save or exit gates.
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I don't like these complicated attempts at fixing this issue that are long lists of things. Just remove self-unhook. There should not be RNG in the game in this form, it's just unhealthy for many different reasons.
Not that I necessarily disagree, but this would be a very simple fix that BHVR have never taken... so it seems pretty clear they do want to keep self unhooks in thè game.
It makes sense for the theme, a classic trope of horror is dangling the possibility of escape just out of reach, and the last second desperate reach for freedom. The point I would assume of the 4% is to ensure that Survivors still try to win, even if the game is at its bleakest with all 4 of you on hooks.... it is still possible to survive so long as you can wiggle.
As such there may be a need to accept its not going anywhere.
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It will still hurts anyone else, it shouldn't cost a hook stage at all
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Thats not even really a downside man... Deliverance does that and is consider a really strong perk... I am pretty sure that pretty much any SWF would happily spam 20 unhooks for 200s broken to get off hook unaided.
A self unhook attempt MUST be: -
- Very unlikely to work.
- Highly costly to use.
If it just is gonna give me broken, I'm spamming that unhook all day to keep 3 players on gens...
Shouldn't cost a hook stage to try to unhook? Then why would I not try to unhook every single time?
Come on ladies and gents, if you don't like my idea that's fine, shoot holes in it all you want, but jeez what are these suggestions? They just flat make self unhooking something you should always roll on... there is literally barely a downside...
AggressiveFTW proposed removing the self unhook completely, and that's actually far more reasonable 🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨
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Why not, remove it or make it free action, it doesn't matter as long as you give players an "easy way out", there is no middle ground
The point is not to rework the hook mechanics, to make it impossible to suicide on hook
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I would be happy for free unhook if tho would prevent hook suicide. OP suggestion does not prevent that I would rather say it complicates existing mechanic for nothing at the end.
But making limited attempts with any downside except progressing stage (including no downside at all) would remove suicide.
If self unhook chance is 3% and you have 3 attempts then self unhook is unlikely. If each attempt add 10s of broken despite of it being successful or not plus 30s if you manage unhook yourself. Would you still use all attempts to try? You are giving yourself 30s of broken most likely for someone else unhooking you either way.
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Or you could get like 4% permanent action speed penalty to everything, it'll definitely stop people from doing those unless absolute necessary
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It would be good if penalty would not affect other survivors, and action speed does since gens are done slower.
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But broken means faster down and still affects other survivors, at least action speed or repair speed doesn't have immediate effect like that
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I dont see a problem with survivors just getting 3 self unhook attempts without losing any sacrifice timer, and removing skill checks on 2nd phase. At this stage of the game its not problematic if they unhook themselves as they could always have a perk for it anyway, and the chances are still very low
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And ultimately you can reduce percentage even more too, make it 2% and it's extremely unlikely to happen, make it 1% and results in nonexistent chances, make it 0.5% and people wouldn't even attempt it afterwards
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If there is no penalty, then even 0.0001% would mean everyone should try, because why not.
There should be penalty, but not too harsh, and definitely should not progress sacrifice. I would also say that 2nd phase should be exactly as first - no skill checks, chance flr self unhook. And maybe with this, and 3% chances would do the trick - people might not want to use up their all chances on first hook because 2nd hook may be much more dangerous, like other surv is sacrificed or killer is camping or anything, so maybe its wiser to save those attempts.
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I'm not gonna lie.... I am dumbfounded the 3 of you will happily give survivors 3 completely free unhook attempts and turn self unhooks into a total crapahoot that everyone does every single time...
Every survivor has an 11.53% chance to unhook themselves with 3 unhook attempts... and you guys genuinely want that crapshoot to be a common thing that is attempted on every single unhook in every game? I shouldn't need to explain that is bloody awful for the Killer and the game at large....
The goal of this suggestion is:
- To make SoH harder.
- Still have kobe as a possibility but carries a significant penalty/risk to heavily discourage people from using it.
- Doesn't prevent players from sacrificing to give up hatch.
My suggestion I believe achieves all of that. Every single suggestion you guys have given fails on at least 1 of those tenets... usually 2.
I'm not trying to insult any of you, but with what you've said thus far, I really think you all may have misunderstood the point of what this suggestion/thread is trying to do...
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That means only that you haven't read the posts.
But if you say so. Yeah, I would rather give survs free chances of unhook themselves to prevent suicides rather than doing nothing on that regard.
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It's just that we'd rather have healthier games even if it means free advantages for survivor, "little harder to suicide" does nothing, survivors just run to the killer, it MUST be "extremely tedious and basically impossible to suicide" which you don't achieve here
There is no point in trying to achieve 2 or 3, There is no point in keeping kobeing, and there is no reason it must have penalty, and then there is no reason survivors should be able to give hatches to other, especially when a killer can slug them anyway
You are overcomplicating the issue by adding unneeded requirement to the change imo
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I have... and every suggestion you've given makes it so that it is always preferable to try to unhook.
Broken is NOT a good enough reason not to try it.
Lowering the percentage chance of success does NOT matter if there is no penalty for it, you always attempt it.
Removing skillchecks in stage 2, prevents giving up hatch.
Giving 3 attempts for free allows you to always attempt it...
What exactly did I miss from your suggestions?
Literally proving my point.
You wanna make it free for survivors to try to self unhook to prevent SoH. That is not a good compromise.
If you don't understand my suggestion, I'll happily explain how it's made clear and easy to understand via the HUD, though its written in the OP how the HUD will translate this informatiom to you. I'll draw it in paint if you like? But what I'm suggesting is really not that hard.
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I'm not, I'm stating just literally make it impossible by either through entire removal of kobe mechanics OR making it completely free because which will be better for the game
I don't "wanna" make it free in any way, the point is I don't care, because faster sacrifice itself is far bigger issue than anything else
My opinion is, this overcomplicated mechanics is unneeded and doesn't even help the game much, we don't need easier hatch spawn, we don't need "slower suicide", we don't even need "lucky escape from hook", all we need is ENTIRE REMOVAL of suicide mechanics and nothing else, and "by how" doesn't even matter here because the issue is so ridiculously big
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See removal is a more reasonable response. Free unhook attempts is a horrible idea.
This is I responded to this post here:
There is a reason why the self unhook mechanic exists, and its primarily in service of the theme. If there is no chance of escape, Survivors stop trying... and trying to escape even when the chance of doing so is slim is what creates some of the greatest highs in this game.
Honestly if you have 2 players left and made it so survivors were hooked and can't do anything for up to 2 minutes while the killer hunts down the 4th player instead of hatch spawning, that saves all the headaches around that mechanic as well. However that is not hard to see why people would be against that, and it absolutely craps on the theme.
Without the theme this game is a glorified game of virtual tag, and I think if you just throw all thematic elements out of the game, then you do more harm to it than good.
This mechanic isn't overcomplicated if you represent it well on the HUD. It's basically the same for everything else, except: -
- The first stage lasts 60s no matter what.
- You gain a stack above your sacrifice progress bar for each unhook attempt.
- You get 3 self unhook attempts before the Entity Snares you.
- When you go to stage 2 the stacks are consumed and take 19.66 seconds off your remaining each
That is it.
Would look something like this:
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I know what you are trying to do, it's overcomplicated because you are doing so much things to implement a feature that is less effective than a pure removal of kobeing/free kobeing, when we look at the suicide issue itself
And I don't even think this game is anything more than glorified virtual tag, maybe with hide'n'seek, and pretty visuals, I guess
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I agree with you that its not as simple and clean as those solutions, because this is a complex problem, and a complex problem requires a more careful solution.
Both of those are simple, but both of them come with far greater trade offs. If you think those trade offs are acceptable, I would heavily disagree with you, because they are not small.
No unhook attempts means no sacrifices for hatch and no possibly way of recovering from a full team slug.
Free unhook attempts means survivors attempt them every time and the Killer doesn't ever get pressure from survivors having to come off gens to ensure they can always make it to hook in time, the survivor always tries to get off hook by themselves before anyone even thinks of coming off gens. That's more incentive to keep tunneling.
I also disagree with your notion it does nothing. The fact is a DC penalty is what 90s?
This SoH solution means you're stuck in the game for at least 90s if you ######### as fast as possible, and that is reliant on both the rest of the survivor team AND the killer letting you out. At its worst you're looking at over 5 minutes to get out of the game. By sheer maths, the DC penalty is preferable until you're doing it often, and even then it is still more of a pain to leave by SoH in general.
The simple fact is if it becomes far more effort to leave via SoH than its worth, it discourages it more over just leaving the game or playing the game out. Is it impossible to SoH? No it is always gonna be possible, but even if it only reduces 50-60% of the cases, that is better than the current set up, and also better than the unacceptable trade offs you're currently proposing.
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Problem is that you do not understand what people are trying to tell:
Currently: People uses their attempts to fast farward to sacrifice.
With Your idea: People will use their attempts to fast farward to sacrifice.
It does not matter if this will reduce their first or second phase - it will reduce phase and fasten sacrifice.People say: Sacrifice should not be fasten, other things have to be done.
You say: You just want free unhooks. - Where the point is not free unhooks, but to remove suicides, and one of examples of how to achive that is free attempts, not free unhooks.Your ide does not remove neither casue nor means of suicides:
1. Causes are different (simplified to: people dont want to play) and its impossible to remove them, only to reduce through improving survivors satisfaction.
2. Means are making sacrifice faster. If your idea reduces duration of second phase, then it achive nothing.1 -
Excuse me, but how is ensuring that someone can't go to second phase for 60s, where they then die in 1s, the same as going to second phase in 6 seconds and dying in 10s?
The fact is, you cannot try to prevent players from suiciding to get out the game if they really want to. Even with your guys suggestions, no matter what you do, a player who doesn't want to, will not play.
Your suggestion at best takes 120s for a player to die, plus whatever down and hook time the killer adds, while also eliminating suicide for hatch, and/or allows constant free unhook attempts, both of which are bad for the game.
My suggestion at best takes 61s for a player to die, plus whatever down and hook time the killer adds, while not eliminating anything.
Currently at best, it take 16s for a player to die... usually without any additional killer down and hook time.
I just don't know why you are pushing so hard to break core functionality of the game, for the sake of 60s.... I'm not trying to be arrogant, but my solution solves the problem far better than yours... it fixes the problem in a way that makes sense via the lore, and doesn't interfere at all with normal play.
Yours does not... it doesn't make sense a survivor wouldn't try to get off a hook if they have no other option, and it does interfere with normal play. The downsides of yours simply outweighs the positives.
Now if you have a better idea than mine, I'm happy to listen to it, but currently you don't, and I'm arguing so passionately, because I really want this issue addressed. I'm tired of people ruining gamed via SoH, and this suggestion is something I can reasonably believe BHVR might implement, cause it combats the problem without them having to compromise their vision of the game.
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The most discouraging thing is when the random doesn't step in and take a hit or a down for someone on death hook or someone who is being tunneled. When my random's suck and don't play like teammates, I will kill myself on hook to go to the next game where hopefully I play with teammates and not selfish survivors.
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