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A survivor picking up the lament configuration should be considered a conspicuous action
As it currently stands, the cenobite's lament configuration (box) when picked up by a survivor does not count as a conspicuous action similarly to other killer-specific items. Unlike other killer-items, the lament configuration directly effects the 1v4 of a match. Chain hunts will slow down the speed at which all survivors progress the game state including healing and repairing generators. If survivor a picks up the box, the ability for their teammates to advance the game stage is no longer slowed down by chains thus allowing them to provide progress to the game state without losing endurance and/or decisive strike compared to progressing a generator or healing a teammate/themselves. The fact that survivor can progress the game state without performing a conspicuous action is in contradiction to the rules behind basekit endurance and decisive strike.
Comments
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Let's not. Not really any reason to, Pinhead is fine except for his FoV bug
12 -
"not any reason to"
apart from the fact that survivor abuses anti tunnelling protection to do a risky / dangerous secondary objective that's supposed to stall the game but isn't because that person is doing the only available objective, thus optimizing the time of his team which is doing gens.
and tunnelling them isn't really working out bc they have those perks up and you're not pressuring the rest of the team that is doing all the gens freely uncontested, meaning you just have to give up box.
same goes for a bunch of other killers with secondary objectives.
there's not really an actual reason to rush to complete secondary objective ASAP against any killer, even pig, and still deserve to have antitunnelling up.
the only feasible excuse is that people can suck at the game and not make correct call, losing their protection, but at this point, they need to learn.
8 -
Are you going to suggest these should disable DS, OTR:
- Disarm beartrap
- Unlock RBT
- remove Hag traps
- Remove Artist's crows
- Remove madness
- Mending from Legion
- Use Plague fountain
- Look at Ghostface
- Remove Demo's tunnel
- Remove Victor
- Crouching over PyramidHead's rites of judgement
- Using Nemesis vacxin
- Using Wesker spray
- Using Sadako tape to not literally get moried
- Disarm Skull merchant drone
- Pickup Singu EMP
- Using Xeno flame thrower
- Remove Unknown hallucination.
- Open Lich chests.
14 -
Okay, let me explain this.
Pinhead is a macro Killer. This means that his individual chase can be weak at times, but he has a power/ability to make up for it, one that affects multiple Survivors at once.
If a Survivor with DS or OTR is doing the Box, you can chase them, or you can let them be. If you choose to chase, you can down them. When you down them, you initiate a Chain Hunt automatically, without picking them up. This means there are literally zero negatives, not only do you not need to pick, but you also get massive pressure by having a slug and a Chain Hunt up at the same time.
Your comment about Pig Boxes tells me quite a bit and confirms what I had suspected. Pig's Head Traps do not need to disable DS, OTR and other perks. That is a ludicrously biased and short-sighted idea. You don't need to give Pig any more excuses to camp Boxes and force boring playstyles.
You will also be massively buffing all of these Killers:
Trapper (Disarming Bear Traps disables anti-tunnel)
Hag (Wiping away Traps disables anti-tunnel)
Pig (Removing RBT's is now Conspicuous)
Plague (Cleansing is now Conspicuous)
Demogorgon (Removing Portal is now Conspicuous)
Twins (Kicking Victor is now Conspicuous, also crushing him)
Nemesis (Removing T-Virus is conspicuous)
Pinhead (Solving Box is Conspicuous)
Artist (Removing Crows disables anti-tunnel)
Onryo (Removing Condemned now disables anti-tunnel)
Dredge (Locking lockers disables anti-tunnel)
Wesker (Removing Ouroboros disables anti-tunnel)
Skull Merchant (Disabling Drones removes anti-tunnel)
Singularity (Using an EMP removes anti-tunnel)
Xenomorph (Picking up a Turret removes anti-tunnel)
Unknown (Interacting with a Hallucination disables anti-tunnel)
Vecna (Interacting with a chest or item disables anti-tunnel)
Surely, you can see how unbalanced this is going to be. All this does is encourage boring and bad playstyles.
11 -
all it's going to do is to force people not to ignore killer's presence doing things that are supposed to give killer pressure, partially because survivors have to do these things, but hold it in risk of killer being there.
Pig's box camping is not a viable strategy since they added extra box and hid their auras from her. It's the same as saying that adding conspicuous actions in the first place would encourage boring strategies because killers would go back to gens where unhooked person might be. Somehow survivors generally learnt not to touch gens to keep their stuff or leave the area.
Using an item never disabled antitunnelling and I never said that it should, however interacting with killer props (singularity's printers for example) should definitely disable anti tunnelling.
Idc how biased you call me, I don't like anti tunnelling perks being weaponized and used as a shield from killer's aggro when the killer is not tunnelling and playing in good faith while survivor gets objectives done for free. If your solution to that is "well just deal with it", im not going to agree with your sentiment because it's ludicrous.
Having survivors run into your face with "aNtI tUnNeLlIng" perks, do secondary objectives in your face, pull aggro when they're in a perfect spot for chase partially thanks to their antitunnel perks is not fun or fair by any means.
I really hope that once babysitter sets its place in meta, they'll go after OTR and DS and leave them in the past. Best antitunnelling perks are the ones that give survivor a guaranteed headstart / good position in chase after they were unhooked, making tunnelling off the hook impossible which is the actual problem that needs to be solved and is only encouraged by perks like OTR which counterplay is quite literally tunnelling people off the hook to not let them keep 80 second endurance.
3 -
If "it affects other players" then yes but in limited quantities
So in order
Maybe (maybe just a small timer reduction like 10 or 15s not instant exposed)
No
Maybe (maybe just a small timer reduction like 10 or 15s not instant exposed)
No
No
No* (if mending self idk if mending others counts as conspicuous)
No
No* (maybe just a small timer reduction like 10 or 15s not instant exposed)
No* (maybe just a small timer reduction like 10 or 15s not instant exposed)
No
No
No* (if using on self)
No* (if using on self)
No
Maybe (maybe just a small timer reduction like 10 or 15s not instant exposed)
No* (maybe just a small timer reduction like 10 or 15s not instant exposed on using it to disable pods or cleanse other survivors)
No
Maybe (maybe just a small timer reduction like 10 or 15s not instant exposed)
No
There is an argument to be had here since this is the old Ds case of haha I get to waste your time and stuff for free while you can't go after me bubble that still exists in these cases. To some extend it wouldn't really be fair if one of the individual actions immediately led to being fully exposed but some of them should have drawbacks so you can't do them for free or excessively since then you would just be playing the match again and should be fair game to target.
3 -
What about a middle ground, if its a self protective action it doesn't count but if its an action that affects other survivors it only takes a portion of your timers
Trapper (Disarming Bear Traps disables anti-tunnel) 10s a trap
Hag (Wiping away Traps disables anti-tunnel) 10s a trap
Pig (Removing RBT's is now Conspicuous) No
Plague (Cleansing is now Conspicuous) No
Demogorgon (Removing Portal is now Conspicuous) 10s a portal
Twins (Kicking Victor is now Conspicuous, also crushing him) No
Nemesis (Removing T-Virus is conspicuous) No
Pinhead (Solving Box is Conspicuous) 15s lost to solve the box
Artist (Removing Crows disables anti-tunnel) No
Onryo (Removing Condemned now disables anti-tunnel) No
Dredge (Locking lockers disables anti-tunnel) 5s a lock
Wesker (Removing Ouroboros disables anti-tunnel) No (on self) (small amount of time on others)
Skull Merchant (Disabling Drones removes anti-tunnel) 8s a drone
Singularity (Using an EMP removes anti-tunnel) 10s per use
Xenomorph (Picking up a Turret removes anti-tunnel) No
Unknown (Interacting with a Hallucination disables anti-tunnel) 10s a hallucination
Vecna (Interacting with a chest or item disables anti-tunnel) No
Some of these actions done excessively are game changing and being able to do them while "safe" is a pain to deal with so what if they were only able to be done in moderation safely. Im not 100% on how long eat timer should lower by for each action but it does make a bit of sense. Just not straight up losing all protection because you need to disarm a trap to escape shack ect
1 -
most of them need to count as conspicuous actions upon completion:
placing a turret, finishing a jigsaw box search, solving the box.
some actions need to count the moment you start them like accelerating printing.
this situation is a great example that bhvr's "consistency" approach is harmful because each case is different and therefore they just ignore it altogether, making anti tunnelling perks extremely unhealthy if used in these scenarios.
ideally, they need to have a separate list in manual about what constitutes a specific conspicuous action in the manual, while short description just generally mentions interacting with killer props.
Survivors shouldnt be able to freely complete secondary objectives meant to apply pressure by creating extra objective to work on while under the effect of perks that dont allow them to do anything BUT that secondary objective anyway, defeating the whole purpose.
And in cases of like Pinhead, when the killer has to contest secondary objective, they also just make this decision into a potential game throw, esp if the killer is playing fair in the first place. Imagine you have 3-4 people hooked once and the most recent unhook runs for the box. So now you MUST chase a person with extra healthstate from OTR (+DS and even DH if they let you get through first 3 hits fast which possibly means they preserve pallets) or lose box and your main pressure tool. That doesnt sound like tunnelling or a fair punishment.
People defending this oversight should decide whether or not they want killers to play fair, in which case antitunnel perks can be strong, but cant be weaponized, so the killer playing fair isnt punished, or they want killers to play dirty and in that case antitunnel perks are perfectly okay in that scenario, because the killer wont be playing fair and fun in the first place to be punished for nothing. If they're not okay with killers playing in the unfun and sweaty ways, they shouldnt advocate for antitunnel perks still being capable of punishing fun playstyles.
1 -
I leave this topic.
1 -
I can't really speak on behalf of other killer items because some marginally effect the 1v4. For example, curing yourself of ouroboros affects wesker's recharge time for virulent bound and thus one could argue impacts his ability to traverse the map and interrupt gens or gets denied a hit because someone makes a pallet that they wouldn't on shorter cooldown. And not getting that hit means it takes longer to get a hook and thus buys gen pressure. There's a lot of nuance to other killer items and I'm not educated enough to speak on those but there isn't such nuance to the lament configuration. Picking up the lament configuration means more progress is gained on primary objectives for the other 3 players, there's no scenario where it isn't.
1 -
pretty much.
we can give the benefit of the doubt to things like uroboros cure or tapes which are less of a slowdown and more like a quick thing to do outside of chase / spend resource, but the box is very much directly tied to survivors' ability to do gens. and one of the ways it applies pressure is by forcing people that otherwise would've been doing gens to fetch the box and pull chase on them. survivors with OTR/DS up, esp in scenarios where killer isnt actively tunnelling, are robbing killer of most of the value and forcing them into playstyle that the perks are allegedly meant to prevent, alongside creating lose-lose scenario which isnt healthy either
2 -
I mean, what kind of players oppose an idea of adding conspicuous action for doing objective, those people really don't have game sense
It's equivalent of generator, totems, and even healing, it will only makes sense to make it a conspicuous action, this is not some random items that spreads out everywhere in other killers, this is a literal objective all survivor MUST do every time it pops
3 -
OP is a hardliner, so they won't go for that more fair idea.
There's still some powers that affect the team in there, but I'm on mobile rn.
2 -
Which is why he's top 3 killer, right? Because this glaring weakness doesn't affect him at all.
0 -
At least some of those, yeah.
0 -
Not every Killer needs to be Nurse or Billy.
We are allowed to have variety.
3 -
Hi OP, you can use the addon Original Pain to put freshly unhooked Survivors into the Deep Wounds state so any endurance they have is negated. Equipping this addon also means you are free to tunnel any Survivor regardless of Dead Hard/OTR and the only 2nd chance perk Original Pain doesn't counter is DS.
Good luck negating all those pesky second chance perks in the fog.
0 -
Yes, as if you have time to do any of those things, obviously, you are not getting tunneled.
The only things I would change from that list:
Remove Artist's crows- You can be affected by this in chase.Look at Ghostface- When you reveal Ghostface out of chase.Crouching over PyramidHead's rites of judgement- Not even when you step on it, as it can be in chase.
In short, any action that advances the game in some way and can only be done effectively when you are not being chased should be considered a conspicuous action.
1 -
yes I know original pain exists, I'm a p45 pinhead (tbf I didn't say this in the beginning of my post). aside from the fact that many people don't like playing against og pain, I don't like lacking variety. granted maps above 156 sq tiles are usually too bothersome but box juggling is my favorite play style which if I want to do it reliably requires frank's heart and larry's remains. og pain also doesn't counter unbreakable or deliverance but that's also beside the point.
0
