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About the gen bug
I know what I'm about to ask is probably going to get some strong reactions but on the topic of the gen bug where if one survivor dies and leaves the game the next gen completed counts as 2 gens, would it be crazy if that stayed in the game in some version as an anti-tunnel mechanic?
It hasn't cost me any games as killer personally and as survivor it really only makes a difference in games where one person gets hard tunneled out early on. If they made it where it only did it after one person died it could be a genuinely good mechanic to dissuade tunneling. I thought killer was going to be unplayable with this bug around but it really isn't if you ping pong between two survivors and spread pressure by the time a survivor dies it doesn't really matter if you take a gen away or put another way any game where it matters you were probably going to lose anyway. Because from my experience it only effects killers trying to hard tunnel one person out while running a bunch of gen blocking (deadlock/grim embrace/DMS) perks which isn't any fun to go against anyway.
Comments
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would it be crazy
No, it will be just dead of the game, nothing too crazy.
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I doubt it just from my own experience of it not effecting my own games much at all. I do think they would have to modify it if the actually wanted to implement it as a real mechanic though. Like it can only work after one survivor dies and have the mechanic deactivate after 3 gens get done the point would be disincentivize scenarios where someone dies at 4-5 gens with 4k points. It would also help the problem soloQ is having with people giving up, they probably still lose those games but at least they'd have a chance.
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No
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This isn't the tunneling fix anyone needs.
This is clearly just a bug, and they've already posted that the fix is coming with the first patch, though I'm not entirely sure when that's going live.
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Because survivors have never killed themselves in the hook.
Even if we lived in a perfect world where people weren't prone to rage quit over any tiny inconvenience, this would be a terrible way to implement an anti tunnel mechanic to the game.
Largely in that it punishes the killer for completing their own objective. Imagine if we had the opposite where if the Killer didn't have enough hooks when survivors completed gens, they didn't get completed as an anti gen rush mechanic. People would rightfully be upset that they are being published for playing better.
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I adore how in one post you are talking about "skill" and in the next suggest to remove skill from survivors at all, literally put win into hands of every semi-good survivor when loosing.
It will delete best and most interesting matches I still play for – close one. Go suggest on CS forum auto plant bomb, when team is losing with the same confidence and come back here with this short story, lol.
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- I addressed survivors killing themselves on hook in my second post where I actually think this could be a remedy to that problem.
- I don't think that's equal as I don't really think tunneling someone out at 5 gens is "playing well" when if you're playing a strong killer (nurse/blight/spirit) and the survivors don't bring the right perks you should be able to tunnel someone out at 4-5 gens almost every game if you really wanted to.
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If a killer is able to kill a survivor without a single gen getting done, then the survivors messed up. There's 3 survivors who can work on gens and enough resources at the start of the game that the first survivor found should be able to lead on a chase long enough for a gen to pop.
Then in order to tunnel out the first survivor hooked, the killer has to wait for the survivor to be unhooked which a survivor has 60 seconds before going into next state. There's little reason for a survivor to be rushing for an unhook unless the game is already going downhill with multiple survivors down at once.
5 gen tunneling isn't an actual problem as it's just a skill issue.
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In a game against a SWF? Sure that all makes sense but in soloQ where there's no coordination and you have no control who is on your team? I mean maybe not 5 gens so much but certainly 4 gens left it happens and that's not a significant difference from 5 gens. DBD isn't really the type of game where you can carry by yourself if one person makes a really bad mistake it screws everyone no matter how good they are.
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Good soloq survivors are very capable of bringing the killer on long chases and getting gens done. The problem you are conflating with soloq is matchmaking prioritizing queue times rather than skill. Which leads back to the problem you are having being a skill issue rather than an actual issue.
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Bad behavior should be punished, not rewarded. There 100% needs to be an anti-tunneling mechanic, but rewarding the survivors for someone leaving after they die just isn't it.
To fix tunneling, the best way, aside from making it reportable, would be increasing the survivor's shield when they're unhooked. Instead of it lasting for 10 seconds and disappearing after the first hit, they can either make it last longer or make it to where you need more hits to break it. I'm certain there's other fixes, but that's all I got right now.
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Yeah no this simply isn't true when we have people taking killers like Nurse or Blight on 1k+ win streaks and the highest survivor win streak is only a few hundred it's very clear the killer has more control in public matches especially in the soloQ environment.
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If matchmaking was much tighter on matching killers to survivors of equal skill, you wouldn't be seeing these streaks. But everytime BHVR tightens matchmaking, people complaint and it ultimately gets reverted.
Ultimately as long as BHVR allows the best of the best killers to have quick matchmaking times, they will get matched with survivors of significantly lower skill them often.
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But why doesn't it work the other way? By your logic the best survivors should also be able to get 1k win streaks but they can't get anywhere close.
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First, it's much harder to reliably get 4 people to be available to play at the same time consistently. Whereas a killer doesn't need to depend on other people being available.
Second, there's better chance of getting a teammate who is lower skilled as there's 3 other slots to fill.
Not to mention a lot of people who try to introduce their friends to the game often play with them which just forces these new players into higher skilled lobbies. So a duo in your lobby could be a 2K hour survivor playing with his 20 hour friend.
There's just a lot more that has to good right for a group of 4 survivors to keep a win streak compared to a killer who can play when it's convenient for them.
Plus killers can pick and choose when they play as well meaning they can pick ideal hours to continue their streak.
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It only matters when someone gets tunneled, aka most matches because you have to do it. I mean, you don't have to do it, but it's your funeral.
But I do feel like survivors are playing a sliver less efficient because they know they'll get carried by the 2nd gen popping. It doesn't make killer matches any less sweaty though.
Both this bug and the survivors not getting base BT bug need to be fixed immediately, because folks this is not acceptable.
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Okay but I'm not talking about just anyone like nobody in Hens's group is a bad survivor and that was a full 4 man and the best they could do is 219. Like this is not them not having enough time this is they made a commitment do try and do this multiple times and each time it's nowhere close to the streaks killers get.
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Pretty good game I had here.
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No
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By your logic then people that abuse anti tunnel perks and bodyblock with bt in order to deny a new chase with the survivor who did the save should be punished too... Same for people that tunnel generators... Again all of you keep thinking new ways of punishing the killer without giving valid alternative options... This is the things that honestly piss me off more about the people in this forum... I get it, being tunneled out of the game early isn't fun, but you can't pretend that the killer won't do It unless you'll give and incentive to play in another way... If you keep punishing players for how they will play, sooner or later you won't have players left...
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You do realize that if this bug remains, all were going to get is a bleedout meta right?
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I'm not so sure about this. Ive gone against Blights and Nurses who can find and down people fast enough that their Pain Res, DMS etc can get rid of any progress you make on the gens, and the slowdown that constant unhooking and healing after that point ensures can mean the game ends at 5 gens even with people doing gens.
Also, even IF it is mainly a skill issue, if it still negatively impacts a large portion of the playerbase, that's still something that needs to be dealt with by BHVR f they want their customers happy.
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First, to be honest I'd rather players who rely on tunneling, slugging, and camping left the game. That's not the negative you think it is - this game is way more fun when everyone is playing fairly.
Second, Killers already have more than one way to make life difficult for the survivors - perks that block gens, perks that block pallets and windows, a perk that blocks the exit gate, etc. Survivors have nothing like that. Killers are already insanely strong, with some killers not even needing perks to 4K a lobby. And what do the survivors have? Nothing. All survivors can do is work on gens together, or waste a butt-load amount of time to make progress go faster. And if the killer decides to tunnel? Nothing the survivor can do about it. The killer decides to camp? Nothing the person on hook can do about it. The killer decides to slug? Apart from doing drive-by heals on the downed players, not much the survivors can do.
Having anything that makes killers play fairly would go a long way in fixing the multitude of problems the game has. And to answer the "Incentivize killers to play any other way," how about this: Be a bad player, get punished. None of the killers have to rely on these strats, only bad players.
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What we have now is basically the old hatch system, but with the exit gates. It felt real bad before scrambling with a super close game just for it to suddenly end with 3 survivors taking hatch... but at least THOSE games required a key.
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So can we say same for survivors doing 0hook escapes, I think you'll answer yes
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Only when we get for killers something simmilar. Like when 4 gens or 3 gens are completet but the killer has only 1 to 3 hooks, then every survivor gets a hook state automaticly added. To keep things fair for BOTH sides.
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Paint the picture any way you want, but this still punishes a killer for completing their objective
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If a decent number of killers are getting 0 hooks pretty often, yes BHVR needs to do something about that too.
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The problem is this solution does not discriminate against tunneling in the way you think it does.
I play fair. I don't tunnel, and I don't camp. And I have had countless games where the survivors mo pop gens even after a survivor has died.
Now imagine you kill someone playing fairly, letting 2 gens get done. After you kill a survivor, a gen pops, and now you go from 3 gens to 1 gen and have to defend three different gens from three different survivors.
And if you let 3 gens get done by playing fairly, you just lost because you killed a survivor at the wrong time
It would also be inconsistent.
For all the killer knows a gen could pop at any second. It could pop 60 seconds after you kill a survivor, or it could happen right after.
The second gen that gets randomly completed could be 99% or it could be at 0
The random generator completed could take away from a 3 gen from the killer or put the survivors into one.
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Probably not going to be a popular thing to say but like others have said, it punishes killers for completing their own objective. Like it or not, fun or not tunneling is part of the game, it's a legit tactic that makes logical sense to win the game. (Get the kills before gens are complete) There are perks available to counter tunneling.
Another unpopular thing... It's like saying, if a survivor loops for too long they add back a generator that needs to be fixed. Like it or not, fun or not looping is part of the game and is a legit tactic that makes logical sense. (Distract killer so others can do gens so all can escape) there are killers designed as anti loopers to counter it. Would be punishing survivors for completing their own objective just like this bug is doing to killers.
Just saying, if this method is applied to killers it has to be applied to survivors too for balance.
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I play on console m1 killers and most games I win comfortably without tunneling. I have massive disadvantage compared to pc killers playing hillbilly and chucky etc. So I believe good pc killer can win almost every game without tunneling. So statement tunneling is needed most games is incorrect.
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It would be a poor design and as others have pointed out, would lead to a rapid drop in Killer players. There are plenty of tools in the game already for the Survivors, as a team, to make use of in regards to tunneling. Most of these tools weren't around for years and teams managed to get by. What I have noticed is that every time they add another base kit or perk option against tunneling, Survivors become more and more self-oriented. They don't go out of their way to take chases, hits, or play much as a team. It seems as if most Survivors today feel that the Killer should be chained to a tree so they can run around it taunting. How is it Survivors got by without all this help before? Why is it no matter how many things they add, Survivors just demand MORE? For the record, I play both Killer and Survivor. I've been around since year three of the game. I don't have many posts here because I came to find out about the Generator Bug and created an account to comment on it. Survivors already have MORE THAN ENOUGH to deal with the things Killers throw at them. At this rate, Behavior better get cracking on improving those Bot Killers because something will eventually give.
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Pretty much what I been saying. Many survivors seem to just want to loop the killer and taunt. When they do try doing that the whole match and get caught they complain about being tunneled. Killers are not allowed to tunnel, camp, slug... They are expected to mindlessly take the bait of the looper trying to distract the killer or play the game how the survivors see fit. Heaven forbid the killer uses a tactic the survivors don't like lol.
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While it would be a nice way to dissuade killers from tunneling and getting a survivor out as fast as possible (this has been the best strategy to win since the birth of the game), it's addressing a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. The problem is it is way too easy for the game to turn in the killer's favor, and once that happens, there is almost nothing the survivors can do to turn the game around at that point.
There needs to be more catchup mechanics for survivors. Killers are able to do simple non-perk and non-ability related plays that simply provide too much pressure for them. Want to get a free health state? Walk back to the hook after 10-20 seconds of leaving because another survivor has already begun to rotate to get the unhook. Want to generate free pressure? Start tunneling a survivor and slug them. At least 2 survivors will come and make an altruistic play to try and save their teammate. This gen bug is the closest thing we will ever get to a decent catchup mechanic.
Killer apologists will tell you that "oh well you just don't like the game so you shouldn't be playing," but that really isn't it. There is a focus to hold every killer's hand like we're walking them to preschool. "We've got to make sure that the killer gets at least two kills per game or they might stop playing killer!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Honestly at this point, anyone can auto-pilot their way to at least a 3k on killer if they have minimum game sense and a functioning frontal lobe. All people are asking for is a fair chance to win the game. A survivor shouldn't be placed into a match as fodder for the killer player's fun because a bogus and ambiguous spreadsheet told the people making balance decisions that 60% kill rate felt "just right."
tl;dr: The issue is killers can easily turn the game into their favor using very easily executable strategies, and it is almost impossible for most survivor teams to recover, regardless of skill level. The solution would be to reduce this to a significant degree where good players on both sides can make conscious plays that would affect the overall state of the match.
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I have played survivor main for 2 years, then switched to killer main. I'd say killers winning too easy is a skill issue on the survivor part. I have played many games, survivor and killer survivors used the correct perks and set up to counter the killers tunneling or camping and the survivors have won. It's only easy to win if the opposition goes into the match I'll prepared. Like if a killer goes into a match as an anti looper, then it's probably not a wise idea to try looping him.
Survivors need to be equipped with the right perks. Perks which the Devs have included in the game for this purpose
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You can feel that way, but the reality is it's not true. The fact a blight main could achieve a 1900+ win streak and was only stopped because comp players were stream-sniping them and running the most OP builds shows just how near impossible it is for survivors to win against a killer who abuses the snowball nature of the killer role and knows what they're doing. The fact is that most killers can tunnel without running any perks, but a survivor MUST make their whole build around not getting tunneled is such a ridiculous double standard.
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CS also doesn't balance the game for one side to win 60% of the time
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To be fair a survivor can loop without perks or items. It's the same thing. It's a tactic that can be used. If a killer wants to counter the loops then they are forced to go anti loop killers. If a survivor wants to counter a tunneler then they should use perks.
You make it sound like it should be 50 50 but fact is it's a 4 v 1 game so the numbers are already in the survivors favour.
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Having an endurance effect that deactivates after 10 seconds doesn't make up for systematically reworking every map into small square deadzones. Defending yourself from being tunneled while you have 1 pallet between 2 trees and nothing else for a mile gives survivors (and killers) zero meaningful skill expression.
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Tiles have been getting worse and maps are getting smaller. Pallets are becoming weaker and windows are becoming nonexistent. Just because a map has 2 god pallets the killer has to stop and break doesn't mean it's OP when the rest of the map is unusable.
The issue with your statement is a survivor cannot tell if a killer is going to be a tunneler or not. By your logic, every survivor should run 4 second chance perks every game since they can't tell whether or not they're going to be tunneled. Why have 100+ perks if only 6 are going to be used? The killer is allowed to swap to Franklin's if they see a lobby with 4 toolboxes. The killer is allowed to swap to Lightborn if they see 4 flashlights. The killer can dodge a potential losing game for them if they don't like how the lobby looks in pregame. You cannot tell me with a straight face that that is fair lol.
Killers use the 4 man SWF scapegoat as if every match they play is against 4 comp players. Just because the survivors have 4 people and the killer has 1 does not mean that on average the relative power each survivor player combined has over the outcome of the match is anywhere near comparable with the killer player's total power and sway over the match.
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Again, I want to point out that people didn't even HAVE the Endurance effect for many years. We got by. More, more, more! You have to do MORE for us. How about you do more for yourself? I play Survivor both as a SWF and Solo, and somehow we managed to escape (and with more or less the SAME metrics we see today). How is that? How did we manage with less? Are you arguing Killers were worse back then? Or, as I might suggest, Survivors rose to the occasion and used aggressive team tactics to protect that unhook? What I see today far more than I ever did before, is getting unhooked with the Killer plainly in sight, my rescuer unhooking and vanishing in a twinkling to leave me unprotected and the only valid target for the Killer, people rarely taking protection hits, the unhooked Survivor getting YELLED AT in after game chat because he/she didn't use their Endurance to body block for the person who unhooked them in the presence of the killer, and so on it goes.
I could write a novel about the bad, entitled Survivor play I see as Killer and suffer through as a Survivor day to day. The Killers weren't worse back then. The Survivors did what they had to do and played better. Now they are so used to base kit protections and perks that they don't do jack for their teammates. In fact, most of the kills I get are because of the Survivors screwing over their teammates. If I saw GOOD Survivor play on a regular basis and this was a problem then there might be something to talk about. But since Survivors don't even pay LIP SERVICE to classic basics, this is a red herring.
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Killers were worse back then. You're forgetting the mountain of buffs killers got in 6.1.0. Kicking speeds are faster, stuns are shorter, hit cooldows is shorter. Bloodlust timers have changed. Gens went from 80 to 90 seconds. Pain res was added, pop was buffed, corrupt intervention was added, no way out was added.
To say the game has not changed to the point where it's incompatible to compare it to dbd from 2018 is not a good faith argument.
Also, despite what most killers think, the 10 seconds base kit bt changes nothing in 90% of circumstance unless the gates are open and the hook is right next to the open door. I've seen every killer count to 10 and then down the survivor if they realize off the record isn't in play. A survivor has to run to a window within that 10 seconds and force the killer to m1 them with the endurance still up to get any value, but since maps are getting worse, finding a pallet or window within 10 seconds of your hook is almost impossible since you most likely used those resources while looping before you went down. Borrowed time the perk is still required to have any sort of fighting chance off hook.
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I'm not forgetting anything. I was there. Killers were NOT worse back then. Killers are about the same today, give or take a few with more options than others. The only thing I have noticed change over the years is the teamwork of Survivors. That's it; that is all she wrote. There are more options now for Survivors to break 3-Gens, avoid tunneling, less camping, and all sorts of other stuff. Much of it doesn't get used, but it is there to be taken. I think the best example is the DEV creating Perks specifically to break 3-Gens, by letting you store that energy so that when you get run off you come back and haven't lost any. Nobody took the Perk. It was the perfect counter to the 3-Gen, but nobody would take it because they liked their other stuff better. Instead they whined and cried about 3-Gens (which Survivors build not the Killer) until the DEV got so sick of listening to you they put kick limitations on the Killer. ;)
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Potential energy is an awful perk that can only store 20 charges at a reduce rate, and all charges are lost upon losing a health state. If a killer is patrolling a 3 gen, the perk is useless. Make it so the charges are capped at 90 and only upon going down do you lose them, and I will agree with you.
Killers were worse, those are the facts and are not really up for discussion. What you're talking about is the general feel of killer strength vs survivors, and that is more relative and based on personal experience rather than fact.
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This isn't entirely true, there's a reason BT used to be almost mandatory to run also survivor was propped up a lot by old DS and old DH and both those things are gone now. They absolutely should be but just saying "survivors have things now they didn't used to and they were fine back then" is discounting all the very busted things survivors used to have they no longer do.
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It is a workable Perk, and one I use all the time. You see here is the little dance. Nothing is ever enough for you. Someone points out you have a tool, and you immediately complain about it. Somebody points out ugly truths about the loss of modern teamwork in Survivors, and you brush it off. Most GOOD Players play Killer and Survivor. Most GOOD Players know you are just a lot of hot air. The game will never be perfectly balanced, but it is in a pretty good place when bugs aren't shaking the apple tree. I just thinks PLAYERS (not Killers or Survivors) need to be more honest with themselves. You are here to argue that you need MORE MORE MORE! I'm like, when is it ever enough?
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9 posts total, claiming to be a killer main but also uses potential energy all the time, enough to not even know what it's called in your original post about it. lol
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True the lobby screen is a bit informative for a killer but killers don't get to see if they are going against a group of swf so killer doesn't know how well the communication or team play is going to be so survivors do have that going for them I suppose and a killer doesn't know if the survivors are going to loop until the match starts so doesn't know if anti loop killer is needed or not.
I'm not saying things should be equal, I don't think they should. Survivors were always ment to be the underdogs, fighting to survive and escape. The whole concept of running circles around a pallet is a joke. It's a horror game that has become a rip off scooby doo sketch with a killer chasing a survivor in circles. Survivors have the choice to play stealth, lose line of sight, hide scratch marks, bust out gens reasonably fast. But they usually decide to loop so I go into matches prepared for it. Annoying really because it means most killers are pretty much redundant just like most perks for survivors.
I have played too many matches where survivors loop and even deliberately try to get my attention so others can do gens. That's why I pretty much tunnel most of the time. It's a means to counter the survivor meta of looping. If people were more stealthy, lost line of sight I wouldn't tunnel.
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I knew these posts would begin popping up.
All I can say is, absolutely not.4 -
4 survivors on their way running to the open exit gates, just for a Meg to trip over a tree root that wasn't there 2 seconds prior and accidentally moris herself. Now the killer gets a kill, lol.
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