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Oppression Buff + Knight's 2x Banner Spawn Multiplier is Making 3-Gens a Nightmare
Flat-out, the 2x Banner Spawn multiplier was a really bad idea.
The Jailer can chase for up to 36 seconds with the new hunt duration multiplier, and it normally would take 12 seconds for the banner to spawn... But with the new 2x Banner spawn multiplier, that's TWENTY-FOUR seconds of guaranteed occupation with every use of the Jailer?????????
I'm sorry, but this is absolutely not okay.
I'm already getting game after game after game where Knights are only sending out Jailers to protect 3-gens, since Jailer almost always guarantees a chase thanks to his massive detection radius, and then it guarantees AT LEAST 24 seconds of occupied time (which is an absurdly long time to try and evade 2 killers at once, too).
Additionally, the Oppression buff has already skyrocketed his ability to find a loophole past the anti-3-gen system, since Oppression does not count as a Regression Event, meaning he can regress a single generator within a 3-gen 24 times!!!! And then send out Guards to protect his 3-gen while regressing it remotely from afar.
I love The Knight so much, but saying this from a very dedicated P100 Knight player, these buffs have gone overboard in a way that is enabling incredibly miserable and unfun 3-gen defense playstyles and is making his guards nearly inescapable.
Comments
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In order to keep Oppression active, the Killer needs to kick (manually, which counts as a regression event) a generator every 40 seconds minimum. This can make the 8 events go rather quickly for little payoff (since basic regression is ridiculously slow) especially if Survivors are capable enough to hit the Oppression skill check (and that's if not a single regression event was used prior to the 3-gen battle in endgame on one of the last gens).
Knight's power, with the new added cooldown post-Hunt, can sometimes leave him an M1 Killer with no mobility for (around) 40 seconds, not exactly ideal for 3-genning.
It takes around 4 seconds (single Survivor, no items, no gen perks, no great skill checks) to stop regression, Knight's ability to 3-gen is, like pretty much every Killer even if a few can kinda-sorta manage it better than the rest through sheer mobility, basically gone if the Survivors actually do gens.
Quite frankly, I've played for hours today and I went against two Knight (and not a single Singularity despite those two being the main thing in this update aside from Lara) and while Hunts are usually a tad harder (due to Hunts now basically always being with Jailer or Assassin since Carnifex is worthless outside of pallet-breaks, and even then sometimes you want the guard to block the pallet longer in certain loops) the guards are still dumb and the near-inability to 2v1 in chase makes it even easier.
I'll be honest, he's a SoloQ/newcomer-stomper due to his gimmicks and the fact that gens are often forgotten, but a half-decent team with a modicum of coordination can simply harass one gen (and keep one person on another gen to force the Knight to either use his guard or leave) and pre-run until there's no more regression events and the game is over since the Killer can't afford to leave this gen anymore and the two others can be done in relative safety (it's even a decent strategy against Killers on the weaker end of the spectrum, one of the many problems the current "anti-3-gen" system has).
While he does it better than most weaker Killers, 3-genning won't ever work against good Survivors/SWF. I honestly don't think this merits looking at (too much) since making him unable to hold territory even against uncoordinated teams would require utterly killing his power.
And anyway, his new thing has been out for literally half a day, let's wait until more people talk about it before running in and hitting the orbital strike button again and kill even more perks to undo any effort to widen perk variety that's been going down almost every updates since 7.5.0.
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There's already a 3 gen limiter in place so this isn't an issue. Oppression hardly bypasses this. Saying 24 times is assuming your entire team is missing every single skill check. Those spread regressions just start it regressing, they aren't applying any regression themselves.
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Who thought removing chase capability from already a 3gen killer would make him a 3gen killer, definitely not BHVR
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Yes jailer can chase you for a long time. And? Knight has to do something with that or else they're just chasing as an m1 killer while half the team is on gens.
It's essentially the same thing as taking Victor hostage vs twins, which was considered optimal play. Is it worth two survivors off gens to make the killer not have a power? Absolutely. Knight has to commit to who is being chased or he's playing optimally on behalf of the survivor.
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indeed. the 3 gen limiter will end the game. Honestly though, what the heck can knight do besides 3 gen with current cooldown? chasing is not viable when all his guards have such cooldown's.
that is why they had 5 second banner for knight because it was mechanic meant to be anti 3 gen. if you ask me, the anti 3 gen mechanic for knight failed anyway because casual survivors were still bad at breaking 3 gens. so buffing 3 gen knight likely didn't change anything.
Knight is new old skull merchant. can't do anything beside 3 gen and is ineffective in any other play-style.
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Maybe if they hadn't taken away every other playstyle he had, we wouldn't be here.
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Coupe might be valid perk for him now... That's basically secondary power for chase.
Yeah, when I saw how Jailer is going to affect the gameplay, my first thought was on Victor hostage situation.
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The problem is that it doesn't matter if he doesn't have a power while Jailer is chasing you; the issue is that Jailer allows him to guarantee to keep Survivors off of generators for just shy of half a minute infinitely, on top of the insanely long patrol time.
He doesn't need to full commit to downs, he can take picks and hits every now and then, chip away at resources until the entire map on the side of the 3-gen is a dead zone.
It's the same issue on-release Skull Merchant had - the Jailer changes are allowing Knights to stall games out of attrition rather than get kills and end the game. Just constant half-minute intervals where Survivors can't touch generators.
Not to mention the new Sharpened Mount addon which increases the duration of flag-spawning, and it makes it nearly impossible to escape a Jailer hunt without getting hit. It's just absurdly, impossibly long with no chance for escape.
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It doesn't matter if his entire power is just "limiting a survivor for half a minute", It's impossible to injure survivor, burn resource, or literally do anything as a powerless M1 killer, even with 3 gen
It's nowhere near "same issue" as skull merchant, skull merchant had one hit, skull merchant could check EVERY gens all at once, her power didn't have any cooldown, and claw trap broke the pallets, nowhere near comparable… oh wait, she had a speed buff too
Not to mention the 8 kick limit which will kicks in rather quick anyway
And since anything but assassins are at ridiculous speed of 4.1, escaping a hunt without getting hit is definitely not difficult at all, especially with all the pathfinding bugs which includes something that is now called a "feature"
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You've gotta explain to me how this is any different than wraith doing the same thing.
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Because Wraith can only pressure one survivor at once? Knight can do two.
But I can't even blame Knights for doing this because BHVR just stripped his kit raw of anything except gen denial, so how else are they supposed to play? If nothing else, everyone complaining about horrible stall games with new Knight might get them to look at him again in another 6 months instead of leaving the killer broken in a corner.
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And wraith can find survivors better, burn resources faster, and can ultimately down survivors faster, they can also protect gens better with mobility too
Seems much better than knight, especially with ambush capability he has
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So instead of trying to play Knight in new ways, even if that learning process is unsuccessful or just switching to a different character, the answer is to hold games hostage? Again?
If people try new things that don't work, it'll show in kill rate stats and BHVR will be more likely to 'fix' whatever people are unhappy with. Because it's clearly unsuccessful.
If people switch killers, it'll show up in pick rate stats and BHVR will be more likely to notice.
So by holding games hostage, knight players are both boosting pick rates and kill rates, and sending BHVR the message that everything is ok.
This is the exact wrong way to go about asking for changes.
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Oh, I'm not denying that. I'd much rather play Wraith than Knight - Wraith is underrated and Knight just got stripped of any chase power. But Knight is better at holding a 3-gen than Wraith is. Wraith's map mobility comes baked in with the uncloak cooldown that survivors can greed and he's bad at pressuring multiple survivors at once with the Sloppy nerf, while Knight's power is literally just 'make a survivor waste ages running from a guard while Knight isn't nearby', which is terrible for damaging or catching survivors but excellent at slowing down gens.
You're not hunting survivors or committing to chases when you're 3genning, you're just patrolling a small area and whacking people whenever the opportunity cost is less than ten seconds.
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What's the point in playing the wrong way though
The only "proper" way to play the killer is the one which grants highest kill rate, you are suggesting basically same thing as "just 8 hook and let survivors go so you'll get a buff"
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I don't like it, everyone already said what needed to be said and BHVR didn't listen, but I'm not sure what new strategies you're hoping to learn from a killer who's had his kit slashed of everything except area denial in an area the killer can't be in, and whose power already has built-in safeguards to prevent hook camping.
I strongly disagree that an uptick in 3-gen games will send the message that everything is fine. Look at how quickly BHVR reacted to Skull Merchant. That was a much faster address than anything they've done in order to balance high or low kill rates. Unanimous complaining that a killer is miserable to play against gets faster results than stats.
And ultimately, if Knight can't do anything except 3gen, he's not going to have low kill rates, he's going to have low pick rates. Which isn't something BHVR seems to feel the need to address much - it took Twins years to get a rework (that was promptly scrapped), and other low-pick killers like Hag and Artist have remained largely untouched.
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You cannot hold an entire game hostage. You get eight kicks per gen.
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After all the map resources are gone, which wraith burns through faster by your own admission, uncloak is a free hit unless the survivor has sprint burst. If you're keeping survivors injured, which wraith is better at due to mobility and uncloak hits then you're pressuring 3-4 survivors by forcing resets constantly.
So if the idea is to sit in a 3 gen from the start of the game wraith is better at it. Knight can keep two survivors busy at once but cannot guarantee health states. Wraith can. Knight cannot burn through map resources more quickly than wraith, thus making the 3 gen unsafe faster. Also knight can only keep two survivors busy..... There's still two full health survivors tapping out the regression limit. Wraith is way better at this than knight.
And I just picked wraith because he's B tier. Nurse is better at it than either of them. So is blight. Wesker. Etc etc.
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You don't even have to kick gens to hold a game hostage.
According to the game rules, and the devs have confirmed, you only have to 'not progress the game for an extended period'.
So even just camping a 3 gen, without attempting to down or hook survivors for an extended time is holding a game hostage. No kicking, or regression events required.
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The difference is that Knight can keep pressure on multiple survivors at once; Merely being in an area his guards are patrolling will almost guarantee a Hunt, especially with how incredibly easy it is for Jailer to start hunts with his faster patrol speed and large detection radius.
Jailer can guarantee 24 seconds of any survivor being incapable of touching generators at any given moment, AND continue to pressure the generator being touched by other Survivors during that duration. Wraith can only pressure and chase one survivor at a time.
Pressure an area for long enough - don't need to get downs, just chip away at a pallet here, a pallet there… slowly, but surely, the area will become a deadzone that you can't even enter because merely getting near a generator means you're forced into a 24-second-long chase with a Guard.
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The Knight rework has skyrocketed Knight's ability to stall games out into something unprecedently powerful, comparable to early Skull Merchant if not worse.
These issues are exponentially worse when The Knight tunnels a player out of the game. His ability to chase 2 survivors at once and Jailer's long Banner spawn duration can guarantee entire 24-second-long durations where one or fewer survivors are able to even touch a generator.
Content creator CoconutRTS has taken advantage of what I've been warning about and demonstrated what I've been seeing in games here:
Even if he isn't successful in every match, he still demonstrates Knight's ability to stall out matches to painfully long durations - 46 minute long matches should not be normal with any killer!
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without attempting to down or hook survivors for an extended time is holding a game hostage.
Really stretching the meaning here...
How exactly you are holding 3-gen without attempting to injure / down a survivor? That would mean survivors are free to work on gens in front of the killer.
Otherwise if survivors refuse to come close to the killer, aren't they the one holding the game hostage? They refuse to work on gens, which is their objective...
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I don't think it's an issue, but main difference would be Wraith has actually good chance to win the game (get hits/downs)
Knight same as old Skully can just stall the game, but is unlikely to actually get downs on survivors unless he gives up 3-gen, survivors give up or make massive mistake.
But that's what they get with a bad rework...
Luckily I don't think it's an issue with 3-gen feature limiting this.
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This isn't a stretch, it's literally the devs own words:
This applies to extended 3 genning, specifically when the killer isn't trying to hook anyone, but just holding gens until the game closes.
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Yeah, but how use it is a huge stretch.
"not progress the game for an extended period"
Well, generators are survivors objective... That's what they need to do, if they want to progress the game. So is it really the killer who holds the game hostage?
Generators are definitely something killer should defend.
If I never see survivor in position where it's possible for me to down them fast, why should I commit and lose the game? I can just keep waiting for a mistake...
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Except knight guards CAN injure people, which means you can't call him "purely for stalling the game", you can't differentiate the knight who is trying to make enough time for guards, and the knight who is just trying to stall the game
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We saw exactly how this is not a stretch. We saw how on-release Skull Merchant was able to stall games out: Despite being an M1 killer, all she needed to do was create scenarios where approaching generators would cost you health states. With her instadown, this meant throwing pallets was incredibly important to not going down. Eventually, the generators would become deadzones and there was nothing Survivors
Knight recreates a very similar situation, but because he doesn't instadown, he chips away at health states and pallets until deadzones are created, and merely entering an area that Jailer is patrolling results in either a hit if you stand still, or 24 seconds of chase while you wait for a banner to spawn.
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We saw exactly how this is not a stretch
It's a stretch because it's not holding the game hostage. Survivors can give up at any moment.
You can just keep working on gen in front of the killer and they have to kill you, or slug you.
Survivors have options.
It's holding the game only when other side has nothing to do about it. Like blocking survivor in corner, or staying in spot which killer can't reach etc.
You can either try to combat 3-gen, which because how save you need to play, we can as well consider survivors holding the game hostage, or survivors can simply give up.
At no point is that holding hostage situation.
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Have you actually watch the video?
First game he simply lost, quite fast.
Second game he had best setup possible (salloon, ruin inside 3-gen), yet he lost when he tried to hold 3-gen from start. So knight with best possible setup can't hold 3-gen against 4 survivors...
So in third game he had to tunnel from first hook, which gave survivors an option to break his 3-gen, or cleanse the ruin. They didn't do it, then they tried combat 4 gen as 3 survivors against ruin and almost actually did it...
That's not just Knight. You had first hook tunneling, one of best maps for 3-genning, optimal ruin spawn and survivors who didn't try to break 3-gen early, or cleanse ruin.
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