Gen bug should be a feature of the game.

I mean if they are attempting to keep the 1 gen 99'd, then that full 60s is ticking down on its regression since you kicked it. Even then, I'm fine with things that reward/incentivize intel perks as a means of discouraging 4 slowdowns. I think Pop and PR didn't need to be nerfed, however 4 gen slowdown Killers ruined them for the rest of us. (I think Grim Embrace was overbuffed into a stronger old Eruption, since you didn't even need to prep it like for the 25s Incap, so its nerf was justified.)

Also, again, this level of coordination to purposely die early, hide out a gen, but leave 1 person at it just in case, then have the remaining 2 duo a different gen, is all too many hoops to actually occur with any frequency. I have enough problems getting my soloq teammates to not unhook me at 61-63s on hook, so I highly doubt that regular matches would have this Seal Team 6 level of coordination.

Thinking on it more, it would work best with a starting timer, like say 30s, then add 15s per hook stage on the remaining Survivors. That would mean a 9 hook first kill would yield 2 minutes (30s+15s*6), and a turbo tunnel would yield only the base 30s. Numbers could be adjusted like 30s per alternate hook with no base timer (for 0s to 3m delay), but the concept itself is sound.

As far as 3 Survs with 1-2 gens remaining having a chance, I would disagree. Maybe if you are using the '1-2 gens left on the HUD' argument, then sure (with about 30 gen seconds remaining). However, if you are saying they need the full 90-180s to be pumped on gens, naw, only against weaker players, like blatant auto-filled lobby weaker Killer players. But that would be a match the Killer never had any right winning in the first place, and probably just got lucky (or facecamped from a choke point) for their only kill.

Increase gap between soloq and SWF - Then just have it only count a player as dead under the system for extra gen pops when the timer runs out AND all party members leave. That way it works for soloq and not SWF.

Only 20 charges after 99'd gen is kicked over a minute - Yeah we've been over this, a strong enough Killer will find and down someone within that 60s. A baby Killer won't. Skill prevails.

"That doesn't really work when it is standard practice in comp…" - I'm sorry, previously you were being dismissive of comp, so I will echo that sentiment back at you. Who cares about comp. They can set up their custom rules and have fun in their quarantine zone as to not ruin the game for the rest of us.

Am I saying it is impossible to have a 90s chase - What I'm saying is the ability to drop a chase is as valuable as ending a chase. The Killer has strict control over when a chase ends, either from skill and a down, or also skill and knowing they got in too deep and leaving for greener pastures. A Killer without that correct decision making apparatus will lose more games over time than the Killer with that correct decision making apparatus. This would be merely another avenue for baby Killers to lose, and by losing, they will learn to win. The more someone loses, the more opportunity they have to learn. If this is merely sticking the knife in the weak ribcage of that particular Killer's tunnel vision, then they might actually learn to drop unfavorable chases now.

That way it works for soloq and not SWF.

In both cases it works. But SWF are simply more likely to use it effectively. Like wait with popping gen, successfully stealth it out etc. You won't get that in soloQ.

In soloQ how effective it is going to be is completely random.

3 player SWF can also decide to let soloQ die on hook so they can use the system. I can definitely see that happening.

Yeah we've been over this, a strong enough Killer will find and down someone within that 60s. A baby Killer won't. Skill prevails

No you won't... Even when survivors try to push gens, so they are easier to find. You can definitely have longer than 60 seconds delay during the game.

It gets even more difficult when all survivors decide to stealth it out unless you are undetectable killer, which can surprise them.

It's simply unrealistic for most killers. Your idea barely works only as Ghostface main...

You can try to argue about skill issue of the killer. Well, I think survivors that wouldn't be able to win with this feature are simply bad instead and it's not really up to the killer.

I'm sorry, previously you were being dismissive of comp, so I will echo that sentiment back at you. Who cares about comp. They can set up their custom rules and have fun in their quarantine zone as to not ruin the game for the rest of us

Well, who cares about bad survivors? Neither comp or bad players should be balanced around, yet you use them for your arguments...

I don't think you need to be anywhere near comp level as survivor to abuse this bug.

What I'm saying is the ability to drop a chase is as valuable as ending a chase.

The fact that you are required to drop chases even in 1v3 proves to me that it's not so free game as you act.

With Ghostface sooner or later you are going to get fast down and snowball from that, because of your undetectable and instadown.

Again, works only because of the killer you play... Most killers are forced to use two hits to down survivors, which let the survivor run on opposite side of the map. You can easily get more than 20 seconds this way…

3 SWF - I'm sorry but if you are digging so far at the bottom of the barrel with Devil's Advocate claims like 'maybe people will kill off the soloq guy' that kinda cements the idea as solid. But I do appreciate the pushback on the no delayed to 60s to be further adjusted to 30s+15s/hook or 20-30s/hook. That more accurately encourages splitting hooks to prevent/delay the feature.

60s - Yes you will down them in time (if you are skilled). I already explained that Ghosty works like a roller coaster the way I play him, and this would be one of those tempo moments where the ~30s downs are common.

Who cares about bad Survivors - This targets the average match, not the bottom 1% or the top 1%, so this section is irrelevant. But to bite the bait, a bad Survivor team will die anyways, and a god tier Survivor team would 4 man out anyways.

Drop chases - Knowing the basics of the game and following those basics on autopilot is a free win in 1v3 IMO. Someone on hook forces a rescue, and a chase ties up the 3rd Surv. Free win due to permanently off gen Survivors. Blight is so OP I could meme with old Adren Vial+Shredded Notes and win by using his power for Mobility and Pallet breaks only (or hits if they greeded the pallet I was expecting to be dropped, all while fully autopiloting). That is what I consider a free win (even in 1v4), something like picking Blight in and of itself (when you understand how the game works). The only losses I could get were from me making a blatant and massive mistake only due to autopiloting, and if I had actually used my brain, it would be a full free win.

That's what we would do - I mean the rest was solid. I guess you could have it delayed as long as the soloq Surv Spectates or hits a button in the lobby. (Spectate as the temporary easy spite method, new button once the feature is locked in and the Surv knows if the trio was griefing or not and want to give them the feature).

Ghosty not only Killer - Yeah but he is commonly considered one of the weaker Killers, so it works as a good form of reference. Essentially there is nowhere to go but up. I also thoroughly enjoy Myers/Trapper/Legion/Clown (for some more commonly considered weaker Killers), and I am only barely worse with them in comparison to Ghosty. My Myers playstyle (which doesn't use Tombstone) is particularly resilient against this mechanic since it revolves around Thana/Plaything/Penti (but that takes ~10 matches to learn to make work, as it takes a massive playstyle shift compared to normal Myers).

Stuck in a loop of saying "this feature is not a problem, if you are good enough killer" - The truth should always be welcomed. But to be less facetious, the flaw of turbo tunneling has been the crutch of weaker Killer players, and ruins too many soloq matches. No matter how good I can be at Killer, I can win more if I learn more. No matter how good I can be at Survivor, I can lose if I have a bad enough soloq teammate, no matter how much I learn. This is a means of safely fixing that oversight, and with your help we were able to also address soloq and SWF differences (for the most part).

Doesn't work with Legion - I would hard disagree. The Survivors are essentially permanently injured, and the Killer has a good idea from Killer Instinct where the Survivors are at all times. When I can pick from 1-2 out of the 3 remaining to get a down in a short time frame, that is going to be faster than Ghosty in most cases. Even if they weren't injured, they still had the KI intel, and merely needs to tag them with a quick Feral hit and then start their normal chase, or get their fellow corner camper at that gen. Maybe if the final area the Killer is chasing is has been untouched the entire match (no destroyed pallets), but by this far in the match, the Killer could check the other 99'd gen or should have more pallets destroyed.

Don't think we should adjust base game in any form - I mean I would disagree, but does that mean we should also go back to 65s gens, standoff Hatches, remove anti-facecamp, remove basekit BT, BNPs fully complete gens again, and so on? Those were all changes to the base game that improved the game for the better. Also personally I think 80s gens were the 'just right' point (alongside 25% max Pop and 200% Ruin).

Spectate to delay/activate the feature - When I think of suggestions, I first think of what already exists. If we look at the 2v8 mode, Killers get a number tweaked variant of Nowhere to Hide. Spectate mode is something that already exists, so you could tie the feature's delay or activation if you spectate. Thinking more on it, hitting Spectate once would be better if you wanted to give them a chance of escape, since then you could watch and see if they get out. Like I said though, eventually there would be a separate button to take care of that instead, so you could not give them the feature, but watch them flounder if they griefed you.

SWF don't need help winning right now - The problem is SWF isn't black and white. There are SWF playing with a baby friend, there are SWF playing to goof off and have fun with each other, there are SWF sweating for $5 subway cards calling out clocks, and there is everything in between (and in excess of) those extremes. My 3 man SWF (because the 4th hard quit the game due to tunneling), has a 50% chance of one of the people bringing a hard grief perk for funsies (No Mither or Invocation of Spiders used when unhooked and we know the Killer has BBQ). If you want to say a 4-man with Purple+ items with Iri Add-ons and only Meta perks, sure, you got a point. The problem is that is less than 10% are 4-mans, let alone full sweaty. These changes would help the remaining >90% of solo/duo/trio matches the most (and IIRC solo is ~60%, which is the vast majority).

All the changes in the past were made from discussions in the previous present, like this one is now, for potential future changes. I liked the state of the game pre-6.1 the most of all time, and that even had 90s gens when I think 80s gens are better for the game. If something adjusts the kill rate too far, they make follow up changes, they don't simply give up and never patch the game again. This wouldn't shift kill rates from 60% to 30% or anything drastic enough to actually warrant a full deletion/patch revert if stress-tested properly.

Spectate temporary feature until button is implemented - I mean again, it would be a temporary measure. As far as a button, it would give the Survivor the chance to give their team a greater chance in normal conditions, and deny them that chance if they griefed them to their death. It would be a 'grief first blood' by the remaining 3, that would determine if the dead 4th helps them or not.

My friends - I think you misunderstand. The 4th hard quit the game altogether (due to excessive tunneling), not every match. I play with 3 people now in my SWF, and we prioritize goofy fun over sweatlording. In my opinion, this is the vast vast vast majority of SWFs, just people goofing off with friends, not clock callout players.

This feature disavantages weak Killer players - Would you say the 8 regression limit also disavantages weak Killer players? Players who lacked the skill to win without learning how to play without turbo-tunneling/holding a 3-gen. They address the same conceptual flaw, that is easily overcome with learning how to play the game. I've also suggested mechanics to help Killers as well, but this particular issue helps Survivors that have the lobby victimized by turbo-tunneling. I can help both sides in different respects.

Killers negative feedback/hurts 'most' Killers - The issue is we have tried the carrot, and sadly, it hasn't worked. That means all we have left is the stick. This is the least intrusive method, and to be fair, using psychology, it should be default on with an option for off (if we want it to be used in the majority of cases, and only an opt-out due to being griefed by the remaining 3 being intended). As far as most Killers, I would disagree. Most Killers aren't intentionally turbo-tunneling, and most are halfway decent at spreading hooks. This would shove them more in the direction of intentionally spreading hooks, and allow Killers to chase more players and improve their skill further. Every Killer who turbo-tunnels is currently improving their winrate without improving their skill. This would make them be forced to improve their skill to improve their winrate. For most Killers, this won't be an issue, because they have already had fun learning all the different Killers they play, learning looping, learning mindgames, and learning macro. If they hadn't learned, they would have abandoned Killer far far far long ago, because the learning is the fun of playing Killer. If they wanted to have fun without learning, they would play a single player game and turn down the difficulty.

It will change gameplay but won't significantly alter kill rates - Correct! Just like the 8 regression limit, it will only cause significant kill rate changes in those too stubborn to change their gameplay in the face of new changes. Since most people are this irrationally obstinate, most of the numbers will be barely tweaked. There will be 1/1000 matches where the stubborn individual lets 2 extra Survivors go compared to normal, and the rest wouldn't be meaningfully impacted.

As far as SWF, we've been through this, the feature wouldn't count your SWF as dead, as long as your SWF is still in the lobby. If there was a duo and 2 solos, when both duos leave, the 2 solos get the benefit for both.

Also, while tunneling is something Killers do, it is something they do in order to cheese out a win they were unequipped to earn otherwise. There would be a short term drop (just like the 8 regression limit) before people learn to adapt and stabilize their winrates back to where they were. So basically a 1-month drop, then people would be right back to the average 60%. No major counter-balance needed other than time for people to adjust.

Do I think a 'griefer' would help their teammates - Depends on the context. 99% of the sudoku's on hook I've seen, are from someone going "I'm not play a Nurse/Blight/Dull Merchant game, I'm going next, best of luck guys". The fix to that is Killer bans, but since we are so allergic to the idea of longer queues for massive QoL improvements for both sides (since I won't get people who don't want to face me if I decide to do a Dull Merchant tome/achievement), that fix likely won't come to pass. Even in that predominant scenario I've seen across my soloq games, they would hard DC to give me, their randomly assigned soloq teammate, a bot instead, if there were no DC penalties. So they are only 'counter-griefing' the Killer for an guaranteed unfun match, and would still give their former teammates the best chance that doesn't hurt them personally. That's why psychologically, you need to make it default on, button for off. That way they have to commit to a hard 'no I don't like you' to prevent the feature.

You need 4 people to be consistently on gens, and not go down in 10s - The problem with that is both the raw number of friends you have that play this game, and matchmaking. In SWFs, typically not everyone is the exact same skill level, which allows this to be possible. Similarly for soloq and skill levels. In a normal match, as long as their is one weaker player, then they drop pallets or go down in chase way too quickly, which prevents the pallet for the rest of the team, or forces them off a gen (towards the pallet deadzone the now hooked Surv created), and results in another cyclical down. Most people are carrying their friends over from different games, where person 1 might be the best at DBD, then person 2 the best at Counter Strike, person 3 being the best at Strategy games, and person 4 always being the worst at every game but they appreciate his/her company. Unless your claim is that most people develop friends on a game by game basis, and don't play different games with their friend group as the norm, that means there always is a significantly weaker player in SWFs, able to lose the game single-handedly from macro snowball.

8 regression limit 'affects' all Killer players - Gotcha, so it doesn't disadvantage them after they have learned to work around the mechanic. Thank you for proving my point. As far as the NOED suggestion, that tells me you never read past the title (as one of the first sentences said something to the effect of 'clickbait title, details listed below'), but conceptually it isn't that far from the gen bug becoming a feature. It would be a catchup mechanic for when a side would have no hope, and the other side still has a chance for a 100% win (4 escape/kill) if they try even harder and truly earn it.

What was carrot - Essentially the (meaningful) deletion of DS, overpowered regression in 6.1, the 2nd strongest gen slowdown meta in the form of Pop/PR/Deadlock/Grim Embrace. Then instead of using 1 or 2 of those at a time, or only tunneling a single hook state, enough Killer players abused stacking all the strongest facets enough to get them all nerfed. If we had Killers use just Pop and Grim Embrace, or PR and Deadlock, or tunneling 1 hook state out of 12, then none of the further adjustments would have been needed. Instead, we had people abusing OC/CoB/Eruption, Pop/PR/Deadlock/Grim, tunneling 4-6 hook states per match, and now all those Killer perks got nerfed and Survivor related perks got buffed. Having the strongest perks was a carrot, and that carrot was squandered.

This doesn't only affect turbo-tunneling - That's the thing, it pretty much does. In a normal match, Killers can easily stabilize around 1 gen remaining and 1 kill. That gives both sides enough perception that they meaningfully had a chance to play the game. Only in a 4 gen remaining 1 kill would this cause significant adjustments, but that is after the Killer has easily been able to get 2 hooks per Surv, and have a delay to patrol the gens and prevent 99 cheese easily. I mean heck, we could even just have it only work with gens that were under 50% after the delay (although that might be more difficult to code), but since you weren't even willing to come up with a suggestion like that shows I'm doing all the heavy lifting here.

I think this is a far as we can get on this topic, I'll provide a response to each of your sections, but I won't respond on this thread unless specifically requested to. Feel free to reply to these, but again, make sure to let me know if you want another reply back. (I'll also copy and paste this section on the end just in case.)

You can't change your build around Killing a Survivor - But you can go for 8 hooks to delay/prevent the feature, and bring Nowhere to Hide/Iron Maiden/Ultimate Weapon in one of your slots if stealth is a fear.

SWF can just leave anyways - I think you misunderstand my suggestion. There would be 2 flags: A or B. If a group partied up, they can get one of these flags, but if they are solo, then don't get the flag. The possible combos are 4 (all A), 3+solo (3s are all A), Duo+solo+solo (Duo is A), and Duo1+Duo2 (Duo1 is A, Duo2 is B). Once you die and leave, if someone that shares your flag (your SWF) is still in the game, it doesn't count them as fully 'gone' until ALL of flag A/B are gone. That would make it so that SWFs can't cheese the system. I personally would also tie the endgame lobby Killer perks to this same system. That way, once a noob died in soloq, they can read the perk that was the cause of their death, and go 'oh so it wasn't a cheater', and carry on. When I was super duper new, I found it awfully suspicious that the only matches I lost were where the Killer used a likely 'hidden-perks cheat', but it was really just the game delaying them to be revealed until everyone is dead. When playing solo, once you are dead, there is no reason to delay the perks being shown, and this system would allow for 2 birds with one stone.

Normal to kill someone at low gens - I don't disagree, but the issue is whether they were tunneled or not that I am taking issue with. When someone gets 8 hooks (without a kill), it naturally means the gens are likely somewhat low (1-3 remaining), thus a spread hook delay ensures turbo-tunneling is impacted, and normal matches are not.

People giving up early reasons - I didn't say people don't give up for a variety of reasons, I just said that the most common source I've seen is from Killer Identification, and exaggerating for emphasis. It would likely be closer to 90% Killer ID, 7-9% bad chase situation (like lag or a pallet stun+getting hit or zigging when they should have zagged), and 1-3% of seeing a corner crouching Mikaela at 5 gens. The issue is I call these 'giving up early' and I believe you are using 'give up on hook'. Since I use 'giving up early', that means giving up for Hatch doesn't factor in, because the game is already over in either a Hatch, death, or lucky/skilled stealth Gate. That also means if someone sees that baby Mikaela corner crouching, unhooked, while the team has 6 hooks at 5 gens, yeah that isn't giving up early, but they did give up on hook due to their teammate (not playing the game).

Killer bans wouldn't even help - It would reduce the greatest % of what I've seen be the root cause for DCs/death Kobes. IMO, people ragequitting are from reaching a breaking point of dealing with bullschenanigans. With Killer bans, you can minimize the worst of experiences, and maintain match integrity. Say I play against "Killer I hate 1", and it fills 50% of my ragequit bar, then I get another match against "Killer I hate 2" and it fills 30% up to 80% of my ragequit bar. If I face "Killer I hate 1/2", a corner crouching Mikaela, or a VPNing Killer, that fills the remainder of my ragequit bar, and I hard DC or Kobe. If I Kobe'd, then maybe I play another, but my patience is already worn thin to breaking, and I likely would ragequit again if a single thing is frustrating. Killer bans prevents that major 50% and 30% of hatred to fill people's ragequit bars.

You are talking about Basekit Carrot, I listed perks - I mean technically true. The issue is I assume that for most people, the fun of the game comes from chase (or to be more accurate, outplaying your opponent). If that is the case, that fun comes from chase, then the basekit carrot already exists. Chasing the same person is trying the same cake, but chocolate gets boring when you only each chocolate. Chasing someone else gives that variety, that spice, such that now they get to taste vanilla, or strawberry, and maybe the illusive (your favorite cake flavor here, I'll use cookies and cream). If people can't be trusted to do what is in their own good, then we have to push them to eat cookies and cream by blocking off the path to base chocolate the 27th time in a row. The carrot has always existed, and they could pick all 4 cake flavors of any match, but by focusing on 1 flavor, Killers have denied themselves the remaining 1-3 delicious flavors. As far as perks, I think DS at 5s, and OTR stacking with basekit BT works, not our current 4s and BT denying OTR.

Survivors giving up will have too large an impact (if I understand your point of this section) - The purpose is to have the change have enough of an impact (unplayable <1% → playable 30%) to get people to still play, while not having enough of an impact (keeping the theoretical 30% less than 40%) to make it easier to win without a 4th. If someone gave up at 5 gens, it simply makes it a 3 gen match with 3 Survs. Fair enough for both sides to not give up. If someone gave up at 1-2 gens and 4-8 hooks, it still would likely be fair enough for both sides to not give up, especially with the system only allowing a different result (with the delay) when a Survivor stealth god cheesing a 99'd gen at 2 gens remaining after 2+ minutes of waiting, and a Killer who turned off their headset and/or monitor.

Other features that don't punish Killers - I mean I don't view this as punishing Killers in and of itself, but finally providing a punishment for the worst of Killer behaviors (and with systems like a delay, preventing normal Killers being caught in the crossfire).

I think this is a far as we can get on this topic. Above was a response to each of your sections, but I won't respond any further on this thread unless specifically requested to. Feel free to reply to these and take the last word, but again, make sure to let me know if you want another reply back. (I'll also copy and paste this section on the top just in case.)