Gen bug should be a feature of the game.
Not afraid to admit it. The game should have always been balanced around hooking survivors instead of kills. There's no shortage of killers who will tunnel one survivor out and have an easy win because there's no real catch up mechanics in the game.
By punishing scummy behavior where the killer just decides, no this one survivor can't play the game or have fun. You make the game drastically more balanced and fun for survivors. And the best part is that killers who are actually good at the game and don't need to tunnel won't notice any difference.
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If you want to balance the game around hooks, then survivors should get multiple hook states upon hook if too many gens are completed.
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Ignoring the fact that keeping this 'feature' would punish killers for completing their only objective, the ONLY way this could work would be if gen speeds were adjusted once again. If you want killers to go for more hooks, then going for more hooks needs to be a more feasible option by default.
This also brings up an age old question: should an unhooked survivor be guaranteed a free reset? A set amount of guaranteed time where they have time to be healed to full and a chance to push their objective without fear of being chased again until someone else is chased/hooked. SHould a survivor ever feel that they ae truly safe and untouchable for a set amount of time?3 -
the best part is that killers who are actually good at the game and don't need to tunnel won't notice any difference.
What?? What game have you been playing?
In my killer matches, when one survivor decided first thing they wanted out and forced it on their first hook, that extra gen getting done meant nothing. In the matches where I double hooked everyone, it'd get down to two gens left and I had to slug everyone before I could kill otherwise it was an automatic win when they popped the next gen.
Same problem as survivor. This bug never helped me once in any of my survivor matches when the killer actually tunneled. The time it came in handy was when two people forced themselves out against a friendly killer, so me and the other person left didn't waste a year of the killer's time doing four gens to get out.
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Pretty sure keeping the gen bug would be what finally kills the game. Who would want to queue up for killer when you get punished for killing anyone?
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The problem with the gen bug is that it also punishes playing fairly by going for hooks. Killing a survivor naturally at 2 gens left ensures that they only need to do one. If I, the killer am going for 12 hooks and arrive at that point why should I be put into an instant disadvantage for playing how you want me to?
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Yes would be an amazing feature if u had 10 hooks, 2 survivors and 4 gens are left and those 2 survivors do all 4 gens at once and escape. Really rewarding gameplay mechanic
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Its not a good solution. Tunneling should be focused on helping the victim whose being tunneled. Not to actively punish the killer whos just doing his objectice. Also it probably wouldn’t work as intended and surviviors will just off themselves as a viable solution. If you want to punish slugging phrase it more like it will be much harder to kill this survivior rather than, if you kill this survivior, you will be punished.
I do think perks should play a factor though.
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In some way, yes. It would at least be a meaningful measurement against tunneling. Because the measurements we currently have are just a joke and maybe a mild inconvenience. I mean, they buffed DS to 5 seconds and it was still bad (because 5 seconds in 2024 are not the same as 5 seconds in 2020). And even nerfed it to 4 seconds. So on that you can clearly see they dont want to have anything efficient against tunneling.
This would be something efficient, however, it NEEDS to be 100% bulletproof that a Killer who does not tunnel does not get punished. For example, I had a game where I got my first Kill with 7 or 8 Hooks (I dont know anymore, but everyone was hooked at least once), 3 Gens left. And the next Gen repaired brought the game down to 1 Gen to go and when I chased one Survivor, they got Adrenaline shortly before I downed them (which they would not have gotten without the Bug, since the Gen Count would be 1 and not 0) and in the end, it was a 2K while it would probably have been a 4K or 3K with Hatch Escape.
And there are more than enough examples that the Bug (and a potential Anti-Tunneling feature) would also affect regular gameplay.
The idea of a catch-up mechanic makes sense, but I think it would just be too hard to implement and actually make it fair and at all cost avoidable that Killers who dont tunnel get punished.
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You realize that survivor dead has nothing to do with tunneling, right? It's an expected thing to happen during the game.
So it affects every killer. Unless you want to claim it's impossible to kill a survivor without tunneling, which would be completely different issue for the game...
I would argue killers who play fair are more punished than actual tunneling killers, because they tend to kill on lower gens, which is an easy escape for survivors at that point.
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The role is called killer after all, they probably wouldn't want to change the name to be named after hooks because that is probably easy media outrage where you can play as a roll called the ()
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Just reminded me of the Samination vids, lol.
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As a killer main, i actually feel this is the case, unhooked survivors SHOULD get a full reset and the game should be balanced around hooks instead of chases. What i would do is probably the following:
Survivor changes
- Remove 4% and rework the lucky mechanic
- Deliverance and guaranteed self unhook style perks can stay though
- Remove the anti-facecamp mechanic
- Remove basekit BT on unhook
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state, but only the 1st hook state
- This means that the earliest you could eliminate a survivor is after 6 hooks, 4 hooks to burn through the teams shared hook state, 1 for the survivors personal, and then another for the kill.
- Nerf and/or rework all the anti-tunnel/anti-camp perks to be something else, they will literally no longer be needed after the following:
- After a survivor is unhooked they are granted a new status effect called "Ethereal" for 30 seconds
- While Ethereal…:
- The survivor moves at 200% movement speed
- The survivor makes 0 noise the killer
- The survivor leaves 0 scratch marks
- The survivor is completely invisible to the killer
- The survivor has no collision with the killer
- The survivor sees the aura of all their teammates
- The survivor is no longer affected by killer perks
- All other status effects are removed from the survivor (unless otherwise specified by a perk)
- Basically, this works like a survivor version of spirit's power.
- If the survivor performs a conspicuous action, the effect is removed and they receive a deep wound status effect
- After the effect ends NATURALLY (not by performing a conspicuous action) The survivor is fully healed
- While Ethereal…:
- Make hooks work like Pyramid Head cages, but increase the range to 16 meters.
- The timer doesn't start ticking down until 10 seconds after the hook to give killer a little time to leave
- If the survivor is relocated
- They are teleported to the hook that is closest to survivor that is furthest from the killer
- This should guarantee they have enough time to get unhooked and trigger ethereal
- The killer will no longer see the hook aura
- They are teleported to the hook that is closest to survivor that is furthest from the killer
Killer changes:
- Nerf/completely rework all gen regression/defense perks
- Basekit kick is set to 10%
- Basekit regression is set to 0.5 charges/second instead of 0.25 charges/second
- Basekit: After hooking a survivor, the generator with the most progress is blocked for 10 seconds
- This doubles as not only telling you where to go next, but also stopping gens from popping too quickly, giving you a chance to get over there, kick it, and start a chase.
- Remove bloodlust tier 2 and 3.
A bunch of other tweaks should be done, but this would be a good start to see how things go.
0 - Remove 4% and rework the lucky mechanic
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While i do know you are joking a bit,
The role is called "killer" but in the lore, that is not the intent or job of the killer. The purpose of the killer is to feed the entity the hope of the survivors. Killing them too quickly ends that.
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I would so use ethereal mode to disarm all the killers set up, imagine you see someone get unhooked as hag and all your traps being triggered without you being able to stop it lmao.
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Hooking over kills is one thing.
Handing over free wins against killers who DO spread hooks is entirely different. Besides, I guarantee SWF will still abuse it by 99'ing a gen, letting the SoloQ die and then popping it to escape. It'd have to be VERY fine tuned toward actually tunneling. And even then, what happens? Someone gets tunneled, they still have a bad time, and the rest get off scott free and even faster.4 -
@Sarrif - dude, what's the deal with your crusade against killer players? Honest question for you - do you play killer at all? If "no", then maybe you should and you might just get a little bit of perspective. Literally every single one of your past posts has been about how OP killers are and how they need to be nerfed into the ground. If the devs did everything you want, including this terrible idea you are suggesting in this post, nobody would play killer and the devs would have to replace human killer players with bots. Is that what you want?
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Sure, but that is a conspicuous action (or if it isn't it should be) and then you lose it, and get deep wound.
In terms of hag, you are basically not part of the physical realm, so you wouldn't trip hag traps by running over them.
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Because I enjoyed this game drastically more in the past before a lot of the killer buffs and map reworks. And yes I did play killer for awhile but I got bored of it after the tenth game in a row where I killed everyone before the final gen, switched up to scratch mirror myers after that and it was fun and I did actually lose a few games playing like that where I only got like two kills.
Either way your argument is simply wrong, in the past killers were much weaker but people still played them. And sure I'd take killer bots at this point. I think it would be genuinely more enjoyable to play since it would improve variety of killers and builds since you can see more than the same four or five killers every match.
Like… dude, I'm sorry but when there's tons of killer mains that are getting thousands+ winstreaks there's no real argument that can change my mind that killers are not broken and are in need of serious rebalancing.0 -
Absolutely no. Survivors have already a lot of stuff to counter tunneling... Not to mention that killers should have a similar mechanic if survivors do generators too much efficiently if something like that should ever be added...
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Lol ok I'll use knockout build
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Damn, I agree with you for once. That's new...
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This bug didn't punish tunnelling tho it punished killing players even if you spread hooks.
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Almost if not all interaction with killer powers are not conspicuous actions. That means EMPs, Turrets, the lament configuration, any kind of trap.
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"Tons of killer mains that are getting thousands+ winstreaks?" If you really believe that's true (it's not), then yeah I guess no arguments are going to change your mind.
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The bug should not be implemented as a feature just the way it is (after death one gen gets completed). It would be punishing for any deaths no matter how the killer/the survivors played and be highly abusable.
Though some similar catch-up feature would be appreciated. It would need to be dependent on multiple conditions (how many hooks did killer get in total, was there camping/hook phase lost involved, how many gens are already done, how much time into the match it is, how much gen progress did the survivor killed contribute directly/indirectly through chase).
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, I'm sorry but when there's tons of killer mains that are getting thousands+ winstreaks there's no real argument that can change my mind that killers are not broken
You mean those 2 players, who managed it only on 2 (Nurse and Blight) specific killers?
It's very funny to claim all killers are broken, because of 2 actually strong killers.
So because there were SWF that go to 500+ streak then gave up, it should mean survivors are broken too, no?
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I like phrasing of this one.
This feature would mean showing hook counter to the killer, because you can't really punish something killer doesn't know about, or shouldn't at least...
So I wouldn't mind. I like to go for 8 hooks, so hook counter would make my life way easier.
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Yep, once the Survivors have double or triple the gens as hooks, hooks can count as an extra state. Once someone is fully dead, gens count as extra equal to the number dead.
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That sounds really frustrating for everyone...
Imagine dying because random survivor popped a gen at moment you were about to get hooked etc.
It also promotes slugging a lot as a killer, so I make sure I have survivor ready to die as soon there is 1 gen left, but they are kinda "impossible" for me to hook/kill at 2 gens left. Just don't bring basekit unbreakable again...
Then survivors can 99 gen at 2 gens left, someone gives up on hook and they skip last gen... What a fun experience for the killer
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Great, like i said, in the description, doing that would cancel the proposed effect.
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I mean if the Killer was hardcore tunneling, then this just spits it back in their own face. The bug was an autocorrecting mechanism. The Killer ruined 1 person's experience intentionally, and now the remaining 3 aren't caught in the Killer's ego trip anymore.
I've only lost 1 game due to the bug, because I play for 8 hooks before my first kill (and it was only a loss in the sense that 10 hooks 2 kills is a loss). It requires the Killer to draw 'first blood' of frustration, and it only frustrates the person who frustrated someone else. On paper, that is a perfect system. I've already given my initial thoughts on how to tweak it, but it was surprisingly good as it was.
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And where do I take the time from to hook all survivors 3 times? Or do I just don't and lose lol?
If that would be possible a lot more people would do it, but it isn't so you'd fix both at the same time and take a lot of speed out.
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I'm speechless
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If I hardcore tunnel, then I just need to make sure to finish the survivor at either 5, or 3 gens left. Then I don't care about the bug.
Worst is when I on purpose try to kill someone later, usually around 2 gens left. I can't do that anymore with this bug.
So if I want to have good chance to win, I am forced to kill sooner than I would like with this bug, which is 3 gens left. At 2 gens left, I have to track who is on dead hook and always slug them until I get to 1 gen left.
And if survivor decides to give up, then there is simply nothing I can do about it. If they do it smart, I lost the game and it was completely outside of my control as the killer.
That system would be terrible and easily abused.
Like the situation where survivors 99 gen at 2 gens left and won't finish it until I kill someone, or hook so they can give up. That would be so annoying to deal with.
That's literally old hatch + key situation. It's exactly same system.
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Any amount of gens above 1 is impacted by the feature, so I don't know why you'd only care at 5/3.
If you purposely want to kill someone early, then the feature should impact it. That's kinda the whole point.
If you want to have a good chance to win, simply get 8 hooks before killing anyone. I do it all the time. The only time it punishes you is in the example I laid out, 2 gens remain when you get the 9th hook. Slug until a gen pops if that is so impossible to deal with getting a 2k instead of a 3k+.
If a Survivor gives up, that means there are 3 other Survivors forced to play out a doomed match. This makes it possible, not matter how improbable, which is a good thing. Otherwise, everyone should hard quit on sight of Nurse/SM because 1 other person did. It is completely in control of Killer to kill a Survivor.
While it could be abused, a few simple tweaks (like 60s delay after death before coming into effect) would solve those flaws and be net beneficial for the game. Killers might get a couple 2ks instead of 3ks as the worst consequence.
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Any amount of gens above 1 is impacted by the feature, so I don't know why you'd only care at 5/3.
Because that bug won't affect last generator. If there are 2 gens left, then there is only 1 gen left in reality and it's harder to patrol.
Even number of gens is exactly same as lower odd number.
1 = 2
3 = 4
But even number makes it easier for survivors to finish those gens, because they have more options (often safer)
If a Survivor gives up, that means there are 3 other Survivors forced to play out a doomed match. This makes it possible, not matter how improbable, which is a good thing. Otherwise, everyone should hard quit on sight of Nurse/SM because 1 other person did. It is completely in control of Killer to kill a Survivor.
That's only when it happens at 5 gens left. It will be very easy for group to 99 a gen at 2 gens left, or 2 gens at 4 gens left. Killer is without a chance to stop it.
We can freely give killer best 3-gen setup in his life, but as long we have 1 gen outside, it means nothing. We just 99 and wait for someone to die.
Survivors get rewarded for letting teammate die on hook. In no world should that be rewarded.
While it could be abused, a few simple tweaks (like 60s delay after death before coming into effect) would solve those flaws and be net beneficial for the game.
No it wouldn't. It's going to make the game worse for everyone first moment survivors realize how to abuse it.
Surprise, 60 seconds waiting in corner is easier than trying to finish full gen. Who would have thought?
Like really have you even played against old hatch and keys? Because that is exactly what you are trying to bring back as basekit feature, which is terrible idea.
Post edited by VomitMommy on0 -
5 becomes an effective 3 with 1 kill, and 3 becomes an effective 2 with 1 kill (assuming it adds 1 gen completion PER gen pop per kill). It reduces the amount of gens needed in all circumstances. That's why I'm still confused why you'd only care at 5/3. It still matters at evens and odds with the exception of 1 gen remaining.
Survivors are setting themselves up for failure if someone is giving up early to make the game a 3 gen 3 Survivor match. The flow state for Killer is 1 on hook, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/heal, and IF there is a 4th they pump gens. In this 3v1, the Survivors are in a death spiral.
The 60s delay would prevent the 99'd gen(s) from being an issue. The Killer would have time to patrol the gens, kick them, and look for people hovering around them. I could run across my 4 gens, kick each (above 50%) once, then return to the 1 or 2 99'd gens and not have a problem finding the Survs there. If they 99'd 2+ gens, then it didn't even impact my ability to win since they needed to go out of the way to 99 2+ different gens instead of simply popping them to power the gates.
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The gen bug wouldn't be a bad idea if it only occurs when two survivors are left standing. Still if skillful enough to evade and work on gen you can escape but it is much harder, and the bug could be seen as too overpowered even still. Maybe in this scenario but there is still 4 gens left and like the team was demolished then it could be a thing but regardless I think without the bug the game is alright
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That's why I'm still confused why you'd only care at 5/3. It still matters at evens and odds with the exception of 1 gen remaining.
Because I will always get to 1 gen left which is easiest to defend. Not difficult to understand...
What is easier to defend 3 gens, or 4 gens?
Survivors are setting themselves up for failure if someone is giving up early to make the game a 3 gen 3 Survivor match.
Not if I use it in order to win and my teammates are ready to finish those gens.
Almost no killer is going to be able to win if we 99 two gens at 4 gens left and let someone to die. Most killers are not able to get 4k against 3 healthy survivors in end game. You usually get 2k at best.
The 60s delay would prevent the 99'd gen(s) from being an issue.
No, it wouldn't. 60 seconds is way less than what we are about to save on those gens.
You are not bringing multiple gens to 0 in 60 seconds and it's not difficult to chase for 60 seconds even if you find someone against most killers.
If we screwed up early game and know we have no chance to win normally, we can simply abuse this system and give as good chance to win.
If they 99'd 2+ gens, then it didn't even impact my ability to win since they needed to go out of the way to 99 2+ different gens instead of simply popping them to power the gates.
It's way easier than finish additional two gens which are going to be easier for killer to patrol.
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Fewer gens are easier to defend, but that's again why I'm confused. If this comes into play at any number from 2-5 gens remaining, I have to defend more gens, regardless if the remaining gens are odd or even.
2 99'd gens at 4 remaining - I mean just camp one gen as soon as I catch on to their strat. I don't understand why this is a herculean task. Am I legally obligated to turn off my brain and not come up with counters?
60s delay - 60s is more than enough time to make use of an intel perk, or just use my eyeballs and ears in a search for another Surv. You don't need to bring the gens to 0, you just need to bring them out of the realm of completion. A basekit 5% regression + starting to regress means that if a Killer runs across the remaining gens, they can find the people camping gens with little to no problem. If they are Distortion+Calm Spirit rat uber-hiders, then they could have coordinated and done that in the first place and won with a 4-out.
Easier to finish 2 gens - I mean you'd have one person found near a 99'd gen, then be on hook (near that gen that they aren't going to risk popping early), and even if the Survs pop the gen across the map, the gen 99'd close to hook can be duo camped easily.
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Fewer gens are easier to defend, but that's again why I'm confused. If this comes into play at any number from 2-5 gens remaining, I have to defend more gens, regardless if the remaining gens are odd or even.
If number is either 3, or 5, then even with this bug I am guaranteed to stay at 1 gen left, which is easiest to defend.
If I do it at 2, or 4 then game just become way harder for me to win.
2 99'd gens at 4 remaining - I mean just camp one gen as soon as I catch on to their strat. I don't understand why this is a herculean task.
So we are free to work on any other gen meanwhile. That's nice of you.
Am I legally obligated to turn off my brain and not come up with counters?
Quite the opposite, my full answer would make mods angry...
60s delay - 60s is more than enough time to make use of an intel perk, or just use my eyeballs and ears in a search for another Surv
You don't have Ultimate Weapon anymore for easy finding. Also not every killer brings information perk, because some simply don't need it.
If I don't want you to find me, without a specific perk, you are not going to find me.
even if the Survs pop the gen across the map, the gen 99'd close to hook can be duo camped easily.
How exactly are you going to down my anywhere near close 99 gen?
Seems like your counters work only with turned off brain... Doesn't really make it valid.
And again:
Have you even played against old hatch and keys? Because that is exactly what you are trying to bring back as basekit feature, which is terrible idea.
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I still don't understand your gen number argument, so I'm just gunna drop it.
Survs free to work other gens if a 99'd gen is camped - Yeah? You can choose to leave or camp and play to what you think gives you the best chance of winning. They hide and Killer camps and searches, Killer wins (assuming the Killer is better than the Survivor at hide and seek, if we are assuming all Survivors win at hide and seek, then all Survs always win). They leave and Killer camps, they win. They leave and Killer leaves, Killer wins. In 2/3 scenarios, the Killer wins, better than the default odds of 60%.
No more free wins with Ultimate Weapon - Ultimate Weapon, Nowhere to Hide, and all these perks would still function and work for this purpose, and perkless, it is a skill fight between Killer and Surv. Again, if we assume the Survivors cannot be found if they don't want to be found, then Survivors would have 100% escape rate from stealth alone, with or without this hypothetical gen change.
How to down someone near a 99'd gen - If they hid, then they give a free hit once found, then once downed, the Killer can travel ~55m safely before the Survivor can wiggle free. I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match (unless I'm prepping like Ghosty stalks/Traps, but at this point of the game, preparations are done).
All my counters work as long as the Killer is better than the Survivors. If the Killer was worse than the Survivors, then they could have taken the 4 out anyways, so a sacrificial lamb yielding a 3 out is a net positive for Killer in terms of results. (S/S/S/S net 4S vs K/S/S/S net 2S, becomes a lesser loss for Killer).
As far as old Hatch and Keys, I didn't play against grab game Hatch, but I did play against the (superior) version of Hatch that was deleted after the Mikaela patch. The only flaw of that was when you had a 4k tome, but all 4k tomes/adepts should count 3k+ Hatch for them nowadays to disincentivize bleedouts. I have defended pre-Mikaela Hatch numerous times because it solved both tunneling and 3-genning. Instead we get an 8 regression limit, and whatever other bad ideas they will attempt next, to fix an issue caused from the removal of the 'better for the game Hatch' mechanic that existed before. Hatch counts as a tie, so in MMR, a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T = K), If they could have won without Hatch, then they would have beat the Killer (K/S/S/S = net 2S), so again, net postive results for Killer.
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All my counters work as long as the Killer is better than the Survivors.
No, they work as long survivors are bad. That's not same.
I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match
I highly doubt that with M1 killers. You just fantasizing, or you have no idea about real time flow during the game.
But feel free to post a game with any M1 killer where you from start to finish never have delay bigger than 60 seconds between all hooks.
If the Killer was worse than the Survivors, then they could have taken the 4 out anyways, so a sacrificial lamb yielding a 3 out is a net positive for Killer in terms of results. (S/S/S/S net 4S vs K/S/S/S net 2S, becomes a lesser loss for Killer).
If we would use this bug, it means we were about to lose, or 3k. This bug gives us free 2 escapes minimum against most killers.
So it's 4k into 2k...
so in MMR, a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T = K), If they could have won without Hatch, then they would have beat the Killer (K/S/S/S = net 2S), so again, net postive results for Killer.
Multiple survivors had an option to escape in middle of the game and killer couldn't do anything about it. That's the issue.
Who cares about MMR?
You can't see it, it's not a reward.
The only flaw of that was when you had a 4k tome
Your opinion suddenly makes way more sense and many others in past...
Only issue of old keys were 4k tome challenges.
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A Survivor being worse than the Killer is always going to be the Survivor being bad. They are bad in comparison to that Killer, have room to learn and improve, and once they do, they are better than the Killer and no longer bad. They may run into another Killer they are already better than before they learned how to improve, but they are still not bad because it is only a comparison against your opposition.
Doubt with M1 Killers - Doubt all you want, if someone is so bad at Killer that they don't even use their power, then your argument has weight, but most matches Killers use their power. Legion has them perma-injured, Ghosty has Exposed for lethality and the reveal noise for intel, Trapper has traps to prevent the best loops or trick Survivors, Clown has his gas, Myers has the smaller TR (which only doesn't work on Autohaven since that realm is bad for stealth in general), Dredge gets Killer Instinct on TP, Singularity can scan with pods (or camp a gen and look at the other one). All of these are M1 Killers that can find or chase much easier with power usage.
Use the bug only when losing - This doesn't magically make the attempt a success, and the level of coordination is far and above what soloq is consistently capable of. The Killer can still outskill the scenario, especially with a 60s delays as I've suggested. It only gives 2 free escapes against a Killer that the Survivor team could have simply gotten a free 4 escapes against. Gens aren't automatically 99'd, and if the Killer waited 89s and never did anything about it, that is their problem.
MMR - Everyone sweating for their winstreaks cares, because those are the rules of the game that determine a win/loss. Skill never enters into the equation, but we assume that if you win, you could consistently juice or end chases. Also Killer could do things about Keys/Hatch. They could bring a Hatch offering, Franklin's Demise, kill the Key holder on an awkward spot for Survivors to pick up the Key, and more.
4k Challenges - Unironically yes. I played against countless Key lobbies, and had no problem other than when attempting 4k challenges. (Adepts for me were actually easier with the old system, because you could 11 hook and let the final Survivor go even if healthy. 4k makes you have to slug for the 4k, or take the ~60/40 of a Hatch fight and risk going next if they win the Hatch fight.)
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
A Survivor being worse than the Killer is always going to be the Survivor being bad. They are bad in comparison to that Killer, have room to learn and improve
That's not very smart approach. Simply because those groups need different skill sets.
Just because someone lost, it doesn't make them bad. You want to tell me comp players from Eternal/Elysium are bad whenever they lose to each other? It doesn't make any sense.
You seem to not know difference between bad and worse. Even "worse" wouldn't be correct to use.
You can lose to things outside of your control. Map RNG, abusing current broken perks/bugs or simply resources other side used.
I really don't think survivor is bad if I Mori them with Tombstone piece...
Doubt all you want
You are free to use those killers powers all you want, but there are going to be instances where you have time between hooks longer than 60 seconds.
Just single chase is very easy to get over 60 seconds. Yet alone with searching and hooking.
Whenever you drop a chase because of strong setup, that is going to be above 60 seconds.
I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match
Your statement is simply delusional.
This doesn't magically make the attempt a success
But it makes it way easier and all we needed to do was start losing, which can be done on purpose. It doesn't make any sense to get rewarded for it.
Everyone sweating for their winstreaks cares
No, they care about survivors not escaping. MMR is not what deteremines their progress, because you can't see it.
Skill never enters into the equation
This one is interesting. So if I win survivors are bad, but the result of the match has nothing to do with skill? How that works?
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Bad/Worse:
This is just a matter of us disagreeing on usage/definitions. To me, the loser of a fight is bad in comparison to their opposition until they win, then the original winner is now the loser, and thus bad. You could also use a statistical argument and compare their placement against the total average, or the average of a narrow field instead.
There are also realms of the game, and someone could be a 8/10 in chase, a 5/10 in Macro, and 7/10 in stealth/seeking. If that person went against a 6/10 chase, 6/10 Macro, 8/10 stealth player, I'm going to say the person better at 2/3 categories is good, and the person better at 1/3 categories is bad, even though they both had the same total 20 points to allocate.
60s for a hook:
My statement was the generally I can get the down/hook within 60s. I didn't say every time, just that it is generally possible. There are always exceptions to a rule, but that doesn't invalidate the rule. In this circumstance we are talking about kicking a gen (-5%, seeking someone out for 1-59s (-7.5% roughly on average), and still having time to prevent a double gen pop. That is almost always going to be possible.
I play a higher tempo/lethality game. I spend the first minute stalking as many Survs as possible as Ghosty, then snowballing my victory. If they heal, I have time to re-99 the stalk, and if they don't, I can sneak up against most players since the cape flap is their only warning of my arrival, making Sprint Burst their only saving grace to get them to a window/pallet. I use intel perks to know where and when to go places, and use lethality perks to ensure nothing sketchy happens in chase to take too long for a down. Coup de Grace is arguably the best Ghosty perk (when you play this macro+lethality style), because you get one Coup proc per down (injured or Marked).
Also what typically happens is downs work more like a roller coaster, going quick (30s, 30s), then cranking back up for the next hill (90s), before getting more quick downs (30s, 30s) for an average 42s in this hypothetical. Intel perks ensure that less time is wasted, or the next hill crank is effectively utilized, and lethality perks keeping the downs quick.
Rewarded for losing:
I can understand this perspective, as this would shift a Survivor 0.?% chance of victory to a ~30% chance. I find this a good change, because once Survivors think the game is hopeless, they hide and never touch gens (except to fulfill the gen tap per 10 minutes to avoid a ban). This keeps them playing the game of DBD instead of MGS. They still have a marked decreased chance of victory, from ~40% to ~30%, but it is enough of a chance to keep hope. I'd rather lose 1/100 matches from this than spend 1/10 playing MGS with Survivors.
MMR:
The game uses wins/ties/losses, being Gate/Hatch/Death for Survivor, or Kill/Hatch/Gate for Killer. In the infamous stream detailing MMR, they admitted they don't track any facet of skill, other than hoping people who win more are more skilled. This means some people, like tunneling Blights/Nurses or Distortion+Sole Survivor rats, artificially inflate their MMR above their skill level, getting wins they didn't earn. People may not see MMR, but it doesn't change the fact of them revolving their actions around the MMR conditions for a win. Whether that is intentional or not from the players, it is happening. I have seen far far far far more bleedouts for the 4k since we swapped to MMR (accounting for % of matches).
We assume 'win' = 'good in chase', and 'lose' = 'bad in chase', because that is the system we have. This clearly falls apart when the juicer Alan dies to rescue the baby Sable who corner crouched all game. The skilled player (in this very common scenario) dies, and the unskilled player lives. That's why I say MMR isn't a proper indicator of skill, but is still a proper indicator of a win/loss within a given match for the most part.
This could easily be fixed by making MMR adjustments apply equally to all Survivors at the end of a match, that way the hook trade at the end has no bearing on the juicer Alan's MMR. This would look like (+20, -15, +8, 0[Hatch instead of gate for their tome] with an average +3.25 for all Survs, instead of the +20 on baby Sable and -15 on juicer Alan). This might need something like MMR adjustments to be paused until a daily or hourly basis, and apply all adjustments at some syncing time. (Eg. +5, +5, +5, +3, -2, -5, -5, all added up an applied at midnight [+6 MMR net], with the in-progress game at midnight results counting towards the next day's MMR adjustment batch.)
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
I can understand this perspective, as this would shift a Survivor 0.?% chance of victory to a ~30% chance. I find this a good change, because once Survivors think the game is hopeless, they hide and never touch gens (except to fulfill the gen tap per 10 minutes to avoid a ban). This keeps them playing the game of DBD instead of MGS. They still have a marked decreased chance of victory, from ~40% to ~30%, but it is enough of a chance to keep hope. I'd rather lose 1/100 matches from this than spend 1/10 playing MGS with Survivors.
From my POV you are just increasing stress for the killers. Even if I spread hooks and finally managed to kill someone, it means nothing, because survivors get to do gens for free suddenly.
Basically only playstyle possible is to either tunnel asap so I don't care, or play for 3-gen.
Right now, I consider current balance quite good overall. Your idea simply throws it out of window, because it makes it so much easier to get into all gens finished scenario. So Hope and Adrenaline becomes kinda broken and most killers are not capable dealing with 3 survivors on exit gates. The game would be hell without No Way Out.
About MMR, there is no point in adjusting it. There is only minority of players, who wants actually strict MMR. It makes queue times hell for many players and games are sweat fest.
If that's what you want, go play comp. Focusing on MMR is waste of time.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Increase Killer stress: (Section TLDR: It would be stressful because playing the game is stressful, and playing the game is fun. Playing DBD Hide and Seek isn't fun, but also isn't stressful.)
I mean I thought of a way to not impact my matches meaningfully, other than shifting a boring MGS match, into a match where the Survivors still play. Does that mean a 0 stress match now became stressful, technically yes. Does that also mean that I don't have to patrol gens for 10 minutes recording my gameplay to provide evidence for a report, more importantly yes.
Playing the game in and of itself is stressful, and my changes would only make it so MGS styled gen avoidance is no longer a factor. MGS gamplay isn't 'playing the game' it is playing 'can I get evidence for a report' simulator. I'll admit, when playing against a blatant cheater, I change my wincon to this 'can I get evidence for a report' gameplay, and I have fun with it. I don't have fun when it happens all the time though. This, paired with the hook respawn after 60s, would be a perfect mechanic to prevent the extremes of unfun.
I personally find the hook respawn to be removing an important factor of skill for the Killer, and now my game is made easier because I no longer have to think ahead when hooking people. I didn't oppose the change though because it was a net positive to prevent (some) bleedouts. This (gen bug becoming basekit) would retain the fair nature of both changes, and be net positive, like the hook change.
Current Balance and the potential gen change: (Section TLDR: Kill rates are too high on both ends [IME].)
I would say the game is currently too Killer sided, as my soloq matches are below 35% escape rate, and my Killer matches are above 75% win rate. As far as Hope and Adrenaline, I generally don't find them to be an issue. I most often win at 1-2 gens remaining, because I intentionally delay my first kill as long as possible. I delay the kill for 2 major reasons: to make sure everyone has (the chance of) fun, and to make sure no one gives up to play MGS instead. Once there are 3 Survivors, they pretty much fall into a death spiral with no hope of getting Hope.
Quit focusing on MMR: (Section TLDR: I thought you wanted to talk about it so I continued.)
I mean IIRC, I was merely explaining the win conditions of the game because you took issue with a 3 Hatch escape (with old Keys) being a Killer win. I thought your continued exploration down that path meant you wanted to keep talking about it. I've been focusing on the majority of matches with most of my discussion (as it would be a net positive to discourage early tunneling), while including each section that I've felt I had something to expand upon.
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Playing DBD Hide and Seek isn't fun, but also isn't stressful
Well, your change also creates hide & seek and makes it more stressful.
If you happen to have high progress gen and someone dead on hook got down with 2 gens left, best possible play for us to stop what we are doing, everyone should hide for whatever time delay you said (60 seconds) and then try to push 1 gen, where we can choose from 4 gens and at least 1 is high progress, which is simply better than trying to finish last gens from nothing with only 3 options.
At least to me it's simply nonsense that most optimal play is to stop doing anything in middle of the game.
Actual hide and seek happens when there are two survivors left right now, not 3...
3 survivors on 1-2 gens have realistic chance to win even now.
Post edited by Rizzo on0
