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Change Killer Special Attacks That Take 1s or Less to Charge
Xeno's Tail Strike, Demo's Shred, Deathslinger's ADS, Pyramid Head's Judgement, and Nemesis' Tentacle all require by default 1s or less to charge up before releasing their attack. The average human takes 0.25 seconds to react, meaning survivors must immediately sharply turn in an attempt to dodge the attack. Because they are so short, they are easily fake-able and put survivors at a 50/50 situation. In Demo's case, it's nearly impossible because his Shred has the hitbox of a bus; at least Xeno, Deathslinger, Pyramid Head, and Nemesis' are small enough they require more precision in the killer's aim. The redeeming factor is the distance between the survivor and the killer. Because all these special attacks are not instantly released, the further the survivor is, the longer it takes for the killer's power to travel to them. This is again at a loss of the survivors because most tiles you'll find on the map will be considered unsafe against their ranged attacks.
Do you share the same distaste for very fast special killer attack charging?
I propose having special attack charging time be increased and the killer's movement speed while charging be increased.
The argument of "do you want this killer to be worse than they already are" doesn't matter. DbD must be balanced to the highest percentile of players. Special attacks are indirectly tied to the outcome of the match; a killer's "nerfed" power is less impactful to the match than their game sense, which is obtained by experience.
Comments
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When you want to talk about game sense, then start using your own and simply predict.
For all of them you can quite easily tell, when they will use their attack.
You can react to everything in DBD after Deathslinger was nerfed.
Nerfing special attacks to force more killers into M1 sounds incredibly boring to me.
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50/50s are the worst kind of predictions in the game. Yes you can tell when they will use their attack. Yes you can react to it. Using only m1 is a stupid idea.
I don't think you get the point.
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50/50s are the worst kind of predictions in the game
Whole chase in this game is about 50/50s. If you want long chase, you need to usually take and win several of them.
If you didn't need to risk, then everyone can get 2 minutes long chase and there is kinda no point in playing with that…In Demo's case, it's nearly impossible because his Shred has the hitbox of a bus
Crouch
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In Demo's case, it's nearly impossible because his Shred has the hitbox of a bus
As someone who not only enjoys playing Demo, but also plays against them a decent bit… crouch.
Imagine Demo's hitbox in the shape of a diamond or plus sign, if you are at the edges while standing, it will hit you, but if you lower your hitbox, it will not hit you since Shred's hitbox will travel over you. In fact the hitbox shape even lets you crouch underneath it even from a direct hit as long as you are at a lower elevation and not directly next to the Demogorgon when Shred is used.
Not only that but Demogorgon's Shred has a lot of objects with awful collision you can easily abuse; rounded objects, hooks, pallets/breakable walls, and vines/bushes have the worst collision and can be used to avoid Shred. Eyrie of Crows is probably the worst offender of this, since it literally has all of the things mentioned prior.
And on top of all of this, Demo's Shred has not only a visual cue but an audio cue to indicate to the Survivor when Shred can be used; Shred is not an instant hit either, it has travel time which also contributes. Shred, when you consider the charge time, even takes just as long as a pallet break and M1 when you consider the cooldown/recovery.
The Demo can use Shred without fully charging it but you get less distance which can make the difference between getting hits and not, or you can intentionally shorten the range of Shred to get them at the edge of the hitbox and get free movement slightly faster. However this aspect is fine since it requires a large amount of skill, timing, placement, and requires the Survivors to mess up really bad to pull off; quite literally Ive seen no one complain about this part of his power.
Demo's Shred has a lot of counterplay, and leaves a lot of room for mindgaming both sides, and I can understand if you dont enjoy facing against Demogorgon since they are not for everyone… but outright lying or spreading misinformation about the collision area does not strengthen any of your points.
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there is one single attack that remains impossible to react. Two if we count a mobility skill, that one being nurse's blinks. The other one is Xeno's tail.
Xeno's tail strike is only remaining impossible to react killer power. it doesn't need nerf. in truth, it needs buffs like add-on to increase radius or reduce successful cooldown. Unfortunately they won't buff it. if they do, they'll probably nerf his tail in process making him less fun to play.
Deathslinger still awaits his redemption. they gave him a lot of changes but nothing really has return the fun factor for him. He is also not very effective either.
demo, nemesis and pyramid head's attack are not strong. none of them need negative changes. if anything, Demogorgon and Nemesis should break pallets faster. they're kinda weak killers at least compared to current billy.
Demo might get something for his portals, at least reddit ama had a question regarding buffing demo's portals. I suppose we'll see when that buff shows up.
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I wouldn't really count Nurse Blink.
That's basically on level of Huntress's hatchet. You can see her charge it, you can hear her charge it, you can see where she is aiming (unless killer is changing it in last moment).
You can easily tell it's about to happen. Teleport itself is also not even close between fastest "projectiles".
Not sure how to count Xeno, he is basically in charging stance when he is crawling. You know he can use it and you can often predict when he will use it.
Thing is if Xeno had some long animation for his tail attack, then turrets should be removed. There is no point in counterplay when it becomes an average power, right?
But yeah, I guess this one could count as impossible to react, but missing hurts a lot now...
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I was not lying or spreading misinformation; you took "hitbox like a bus" literally. Thank you for clarifying what the shred hitbox looks like.
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outside of chase, you cannot tell she is charging it and when your inside the chase, you cannot react to her releasing the blink, there is no location or Ui that says nurse is blinking here. sometimes, it is hard to dead hard a nurse. Xeno tail is also tricky to dead hard. very fast attack. I have reaction to dead hard both attacks but i am sure some survivor fail it if i find it tricky.
Thing is if Xeno had some long animation for his tail attack, then turrets should be removed. There is no point in counterplay when it becomes an average power, right?
I honestly don't know why turret exist. i'd be fine playing vs xeno with no turrets. to me, they just look like killer bully material.
Nemesis vaccines are also very strange. i don't know why those vaccine exist either. again they only hurt killer viability. you'd think that an item as powerful as vaccines would be on a strong killer on like pre-nerfed blight, pre-nerfed spirit, Nurse, something incredible strong. instead the drawback is on some average m2 killer.
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Xeno has a 0.2s tail attack according to wiki. You don't think that's crazy?
Deathslinger is "not very effective" because he's like Legion; can get Survivors into Deep Wound easily, but struggles to get downs because they can use the environment to break free.
Why are Demo, Nemi, and PH's attacks not strong? Please explain. My proposed change may not be so negative; can't judge without testing.
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outside of chase, you cannot tell she is charging it and when your inside the chase, you cannot react to her releasing the blink
Well, isn't this same for Huntress, or Deathslinger?
If you don't have LoS while I charge it, then you kinda need to guess what I'll do even in chase.
PH is very loud, but you have to fully guess where I am going to launch it, if you don't have LoS.
But hey for most of those killers you need straight tile for this to work. Nurse can do it anywhere.
I think it's easy to react with DH at least against it, but her reach makes dodging with movement more difficult.
Nemesis vaccines are also very strange.
I would definitely like to see some change for infection to have a purpose. It's simply hindrance for Nemesis right now, which doesn't really make sense.
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Well, isn't this same for Huntress, or Deathslinger?
no. I can tell when the shot is released and approx where it is being fired. Makes deathslinger easy killer to loop. Huntress is a bit harder i'd say because side-step slinger is like 100% counter-play but with huntress, you can often run into hatchets.
PH is very loud, but you have to fully guess where I am going to launch it, if you don't have LoS.
i find shock wave too be relatively straightforward to react on at a distance. I once had a pyramid head that missed like 10 times or more trying hit a shockwave. he got the hit eventually but i found it funny on Gideon's Meat packing plant.
I would definitely like to see some change for infection to have a purpose. It's simply hindrance for Nemesis right now, which doesn't really make sense.
Yeah I don't really know what up with that tier and infection system. They did release a statistic that zombies barely hit anyone. maybe that means they'll buff nemesis and make the purple zombie speed and yellow detection add-on base-kit. i don't think zombies legit hit anyone except for survivor that purposely run into zombies so they can get free sprint burst to shift-w.
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i find shock wave too be relatively straightforward to react on at a distance.
Have you ever played against PH who can actually flick? That's completely different experience...
They did release a statistic that zombies barely hit
Not really surprising, when even if they attack it usually miss.
Most hits are when survivors do it on purpose as kinda free Sprint Burst, when they were injured by M1. That definitely feels bad for Nemesis.
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Have you ever played against PH who can actually flick? That's completely different experience...
Most of them pyramid head don't really know what they're doing. I think hardest pyramid head to play against are those that run green duration add-on and follow you around with the sword. those are pretty tough to loop. it just feels like your playing against this weird zoning gameplay.
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Given that none of the killers listed are even that strong, I don't think they really need any nerfs.
We can use Nightlight's stats https://nightlight.gg/killers/ which may not be perfectly accurately are generally close enough:
Xeno: 52% KR
Demo: 52% KR
Deathslinger: 54% KR
Nemesis: 51% KR
PH: 52% KR
I don't think we should be nerfing killers over your personal experience.
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You can't say it's a nerf without trying it first… Having increased movement speed while charging isn't something to be ignored. Again, it's my proposal.
Just because a killer has a 50% kill rate doesn't mean they didn't get 8 hooks. Kill rate doesn't matter in pro games; only hook stages, and I think it goes the same way for fun matches.
What do you mean my own personal experience? You've never played against these killers before? Every player who have have experienced this.
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It's fine, if anything all that needs a buff, not everything need to be catered towards survivor's fun
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you think charging time should be buffed?
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Or literally any aspect of them, basically they are underperforming
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that's not the point of this particular discussion
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Xeno has a 0.2s tail attack according to wiki. You don't think that's crazy?
um no?
Deathslinger is "not very effective" because he's like Legion; can get Survivors into Deep Wound easily, but struggles to get downs because they can use the environment to break free.
I don't think i have ever had this problem at all. when i get the hit, I get the hit. i don't think anyone ever breaks my chain because i know when the shot is going connect is going lead to an m1 hit. Slinger is not interesting to play because long range, high risk shots are not rewarding. what is the point of being ranged killer if your only good when your within 10 meter range? strong loopers react to his gun shot making the gun unsatisfying to use. it is like your suppose chase potato survivors in chase.
Why are Demo, Nemi, and PH's attacks not strong? Please explain. My proposed change may not be so negative; can't judge without testing.
PH shockwave has travel time, so max distance shots are possible simple to react on. Most Pyramid head players tend to only zone with his ability by hitting you when you crossing the little gap between pallet spawn. in the corner of the map, people spam his ability because they got unlimited attempts to hit you. either way his 1vs1 chase is not very time efficient.
Nemesis whip doesn't work across walls. you can crouch his whip and his whip won't hit anyone over objects. All nemesis ever gets his pallet breaks and his pallet break are slow. You just get to another pallet.
Demogorgon's is full charge time is 1 second. You can loop in a way where demogorgon is unable gets an angle to use his ability. all he gets is pallet breaks but his pallet breaks are so slow that you just get to another pallet.
I don't get the point of nemesis whip or shred. they don't amount to anything. you might as well play singlurarity that has enduring spirit fury, Leatherface who shreds pallets faster or Billy. like @Iron_Cutlass suggests, all the killer are mediocre.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
I thought about it some more.
Nobody seems to get my point. My point is not about how weak or strong individual killers are or how they play in a match. I'm talking about very specifically the time it that takes to charge up the special attack of killers — more specifically, the quickest special attacks, which are Xeno, Demo, Nemi, Slinger, PH, and Huntress (actually she too has a charge time >1s; I didn't notice).
Bear with me. I'm imagining my "control" test to be a killer with 100% precision (not accuracy) chasing a survivor in an open world with no objects at all. When the killer charges up their special power, they will both create a sound and animation which lets the survivor know what is coming.
When the distance between the killer and the survivor is beyond lunge range, if the charge time of the special attack is quick, the survivor must react with either crouching or sharply turning in an attempt to dodge; keeping on running forward without doing either is not a smart choice. Thus, this knowledge is used by killers to fake their special attack, canceling it, and hoping the split second of the survivor reacting to you charging your power is enough to close the gap to get a lunge hit (or more favorable special attack). You must however also take into account the time it takes to cancel the charge. Faking is best done on Demo with 0.64s maximum and Slinger with 0.6s (and potentially Huntress because the Wiki doesn't say the time it takes for her to pocket her hatchet) to cancel. Because they have both charge and cancel times of below 1s, the slowdown of killer's speed is negligible when faking.
The other killers with fast charging, but slow canceling (Nemi and PH) still are a big threat. If we look at the approximate 6m for a lunge attack, most killers would rather take the m1 than use their power when a survivor is within that distance. Thus, we will take the minimum distance for a special attack to be 6m, and calculate accordingly how long it takes for the attack to travel.
Funnily enough, Nemi's tentacle is 5m at tiers 1 and 2, and 6 m at tier 3 — so loosely speaking, it's better to not use your power at all. 😂
PH's attack however if I am interpreting the Wiki correctly, at 6m will take 0.75s to travel plus 1s more to charge up the power in the first place, meaning a survivor at 6m has 1.75s to react to PH's power.
I will comment in a future date a response to my findings above; I can't in this post because it is late and I want to go to bed. 😂
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I thought about it some more. Nobody seems to get my point. My point is not about how weak or strong individual killers are or how they play in a match. I'm talking about very specifically the time it that takes to charge up the special attack of killers — more specifically, the quickest special attacks, which are Xeno, Demo, Nemi, Slinger, PH, and Huntress (actually she too has a charge time >1s; I didn't notice).
Bear with me. I'm imagining my "control" test to be a killer with 100% precision (not accuracy) chasing a survivor in an open world with no objects at all. When the killer charges up their special power, they will both create a sound and animation which lets the survivor know what is coming.
When the distance between the killer and the survivor is beyond lunge range, if the charge time of the special attack is quick, the survivor must react with either crouching or sharply turning in an attempt to dodge; keeping on running forward without doing either is not a smart choice. Thus, this knowledge is used by killers to fake their special attack, canceling it, and hoping the split second of the survivor reacting to you charging your power is enough to close the gap to get a lunge hit (or more favorable special attack). You must however also take into account the time it takes to cancel the charge. Faking is best done on Demo with 0.64s maximum and Slinger with 0.6s (and potentially Huntress because the Wiki doesn't say the time it takes for her to pocket her hatchet) to cancel. Because they have both charge and cancel times of below 1s, the slowdown of killer's speed is negligible when faking.
The other killers with fast charging, but slow canceling (Nemi and PH) still are a big threat. If we look at the approximate 6m for a lunge attack, most killers would rather take the m1 than use their power when a survivor is within that distance. Thus, we will take the minimum distance for a special attack to be 6m, and calculate accordingly how long it takes for the attack to travel.
Funnily enough, Nemi's tentacle is 5m at tiers 1 and 2, and 6 m at tier 3 — so loosely speaking, it's better to not use your power at all. 😂
PH's attack however if I am interpreting the Wiki correctly, at 6m will take 0.75s to travel plus 1s more to charge up the power in the first place, meaning a survivor at 6m has 1.75s to react to PH's power.
I will comment in a future date a response to my findings above; I can't in this post because it is late and I want to go to bed. 😂
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Yes the "do you want this killer to be weaker than it already is" conversation does matter whether you think it does or doesn't. And no, the game "must" not balance around the top 1%. There's nothing wrong with any of these powers. They are all dodgable, just hard to do. Just because something is strong doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. People's distaste for something doesn't always mean they are right about it being powerful. It just means they don't like something. Don't kick killers just because you found a few killers out of the roster that personally annoy you.
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"Nobody seems to get my point."
And you don't seem to get the hint: your suggestions are not popular.
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Your control test doesn't make any sense with how the game itself is structured. An empty field with nothing to block LOS or windows/pallets to give distance is unrealistic in this game, as there is an abundance of those in anymatch you play. You can't use that as a control group if that isn't how the game is played at all. That's not how that works.
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