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70 seconds hook states duration. Let's talk about it.
Let's talk about it.
What do you think?
Is this good for the game? Is this bad?
Is it gonna make tunneling more needed, considering survivors now have more time to finish a gen and then go for a save last second?
Or is it gonna incentivise spreading pressure once in a 3v1 better?
What do you think?
Comments
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Should have been implemented alongside the increase of Gentime.
If someone does not (proxy)camp a lot, they wont see a difference. Someone who relied on camping a lot will have a worse time. Which is a good thing.
49 -
I don't think it's gonna be good:
Killers still have NO default incentives to leave hooks and not tunnel or camp.
So it's STILL not gonna solve the fact that tunneling a person in 3v1 ASAP is always the best play.
Now perhaps even more the best play, considering survivors can just finish the gens and save last second.
15 -
This can also be bad: if survivors do mistakes, and deserve to get punished....now they just have more time to recover for free and do gens!
8 -
Those pesky Survivors. They DESERVE to be punished. DESERVE!!
Seriously, it will be a change which will be implemented and one week after implementation nobody will talk or care about it.
36 -
Killers actually do have an incentive to leave the hook. To slowdown the other 3 survivors who are working on the gens rapidly and unimpeded.
37 -
A killer who tunnels would do it regardless and we know that, now he will be punished a little more or he will think twice before doing it.
17 -
Its horrible. Secure second stage is already very hard and they did it even harder. And of course only survivors perks being buffed (i wonder why :) )
4 -
It's only good if survivors make use of that time.
I've been getting survivors who immediately rush a hooked survivor as soon as they're hooked, even if I don't have time to leave the area. Even going as far as calling me a 'camper' for not just… Teleporting immediately across the map or something? And those who don't insult me are still crowding a freshly hooked survivor and allowing them to go to second hook stage because they don't want to risk a trade until it's too late. Because while I don't enjoy playing hook defender right off the bat, I know it's a worse play to just leave and let them take away my pressure.5 -
Should have been done with the gen changes, but 10 is probably too much, it should be proportional to the gen changes.
I.E. gens were 80 seconds now 90, thats a 12.5% increase, so 12.5% more of 60 is 67.5 seconds.
8 -
I don't think it'll solve what people think it'll solve.
Survivors going for immediate saves or hiding around the hook waiting for the killer to leave will still have the same end result.
14 -
Finally implementing something that took nearly no effort to change the number, but naturally can make camping and tunneling less efficient. Also has zero chance of being abused.
Only took years of me saying in nearly every tunneling thread to finally get them to listen for once.
Great change.
8 -
I think it will change nothing
3 -
They justify this change in the post by saying it will hurt camping, which is fair enough. I hate camping, its boring, but I wouldn't have to do it if the maps were bearable and didnt have pallets facing eachother 10m away like on Eyrie for example.
They fail to realise though that making the hook stages 70s will hurt killers who dont camp more than it will hurt killers that do. Every time you hook someone the rest of their team has an extra 10s on a gen before they have to go unhook that person. Thats more progress than a Surge proc, for example.
Its more likely you can defend the hook than get another survivor hooked in the same time they will do 1 or 2 generators, and say if you did get a second hooked, thats spread pressure, and with only 2 or 3 gens left to do in the mid-game, its not looking good for the killer.
The rest of the game, particularly the maps, is not balanced enough yet to make this a good change.
5 -
i dont play in a way that is affected by that, so dont care.
probably going to make securing 2nd harder, whatever.
1 -
I think 60s→65s of hooktime was warranted with 80s→90s of gentime. I initially thought and equal time change was the right call (back when they first floated the idea of 90s gens), but now I think 65s is enough to match the gen time. I would also say the anti-facecamp grace period would also be a fine equal 'paused timer', so with the current 7s, we could have 67s per stage. I wouldn't want to go above that though.
Also with @Reinami pointing out, gens got a 12.5% increase, so hooks getting an equal 12.5% increase to 67.5s would mathematically be 'just right'. That would probably be better than me just going off 'vibes'.5 -
in soloq it won't change anything, people will insta save a survivor getting tunneled which is the reason i don't bring reassurance since you can't utilize its anti tunnel aspect. i personally dislike the change but i doubt it will change much, survivors will be able to be even more careless and it's fine.
3 -
Another cycle in the back and forth between time efficiency. Now survivors can stay on gens longer without feeling pressure to go rescue.
In a year or two the devs will make a change referencing the hook time. Just normal dbd.
7 -
Camping is still often mathematically better that not though. Think of it this way.
If you don't camp, you have
- 1 survivor on the hook, 3 survivors on gens.
- You start looking where to go next.
- Probably around the time you find out where the next survivor roughly is, a survivor is leaving a gen, now you have, 1 survivor on hook, 1 going to the hook. 2 on gens. Lets say this process takes around 20 seconds to get to (about 20 seconds, to get to the middle of the map from the edge accounting for having to pick the survivor up and hook them)
- Another say, 5 seconds later you find your target and get them off the gen, now you have 1 survivor on hook, 1 going for save, 1 on gens, and 1 being chased.
- Probably another 5 seconds later, the survivor on hook gets saved.
- Another 16 seconds later, that survivor is healed.
- Another 10 seconds later, both of those survivors are on a gen.
- And around now you probably get the down from your chase.
- How much gen time elapsed?
For 20 seconds, you have 3 survivors on a gen = 60 seconds
For 5 seconds, you have 2 survivors on a gen = 10 seconds
for 29 seconds, you have 1 survivor on a gen = 29 seconds
this is a total of 60 + 10 + 29 = 99 seconds of gen progress, a little more than 1 gen.
Now what if you camp?
- 1 survivor on hook, 3 survivors on gens.
- You start camping
- This probably lasts around 20 seconds as before, then the survivors start to wonder
- Now the question is, are they an organized team or not? More often than not, they are NOT an organized team, but lets assume the OPTIMAL scenario in most games?
- So, 1 survivor starts going for save, you have 1 survivor on hook, 1 going for the save, and 2 on gens.
- After about 10 seconds or so, the survivor going for the save realizes you are camping.
- Maybe they poke you, or emote you to "come here" but overall they probably goof off for 15 seconds or so, before they realize you aren't budging.
- At this point, often times multiple survivors will now get off the gens to come for a save because multiple is needed to not trade. But again, maybe they just have the 1 guy guy go back on gens, so now you have 3 survivors on gens
- The guy on hook has now been on hook for 45 seconds. You only need another 15 to hit second stage. Which if you are smart, is what you are looking for, then you go interrupt them.
- So now you have a 2nd stage hook, similar to before, but just on the same survivor and how much gen time has elapsed?
For 20 seconds you have 3 survivors on a gen = 60 seconds
For 10 seconds you have 2 survivors on a gen = 20 seconds
For 15 seconds you have 2 survivors on a gen = 15 seconds
For 15 seconds you have 3 survivors on a gen = 45 seconds
That is 60 + 20 + 15 + 45 = 140 seconds on a gen, about 40 seconds more than the above.
Well, what do you get for it? Well the reality is, that first chase typically lasts 3 gens anyway. And if it doesn't the survivor getting chased is bad, or the survivors doing gens are bad. So it often makes sense to do this because during the scuffle to find the next gen, the survivors aren't doing anything. Additionally, this is assuming that survivors play OPTIMALLY. Which you know they don't the vast majority of the time.
Secondly, what you get is still 2 hook stages, the difference though is that if you camp, the 2nd stage is on a single survivor, instead of 2 different survivors. This is far more powerful, because now survivors have to spend even MORE time either protecting said survivor, and body blocking them. That survivor needs to spend more time trying to hide, or they risk being eliminated completely.
If you get down to 3 survivors and there are 2 gens left, it is often a win for a killer at that point, because survivors can't keep up unless the killer makes a big mistake. If there is 1 gen left, its possible for them to come back if you make small mistakes.
All in all, camping is often more effective than not, because the vast majority of the time, the survivors will not play optimally. And even when they do, it opens them up for a quick tunnel into a long drawn out 1v3.
2 -
If you don't stay near the hook and camp this change does nothing. Actually nothing.
Because the killer is pressuring survivors off of gens, and the longer a survivor stays on hook is better for the killer. They're in time out, so they can't do anything on the hook.
The only time this comes into play is if a killer is standing near a hook waiting, which means you're already not putting pressure on the other survivors (and gens are getting done).
There's no scenario where "killer isn't camping" and "extra 10 seconds of hook time" are both going to affect the game at once. Ever.
5 -
Obviously awful change, leave a way bigger room for mistakes for survivors. Especially on comp scene, I don't even know what they will do with these 20 sec in a matches, where literally every second can decide outcome of the match. Probably survivors will play itemless or even more perks will be banned, while public matches will have 4 Resi/4 Adren / 4 Toolboxes still without any problem, lol.
1 -
It should have been implemented with an update for toolboxes, that changes all toolboxes to only have 16 charges.
Generator speeds are too quick, when survivors stack generator perks/addons with a 32 charge toolbox.
5 -
Mathematics has rarely worked with us when it comes to human factors.
The main problem we see with that thinking is that there are always to many factors in a trial for clean numbers. Perks, map, and killer all add or subtract time. Let's take your examples and put GF in and assume the survivor he found is 99 and unaware the killer is near. The expected happens and now said time table is out of order.
We're in disagreement as if the survivors are effective then camping will only meagerly reward the killer at best (though we don't deny most survivors don't play optimal they only need to play smart to be effective).
6 -
Gen speeds were too quick when toolboxes had 90-180 charges in them. Now they are too quick when toolboxes have 16-52 charges, skill checks only give out 1% bonus progression to the gen, gens have 10 additional charges, and coop inefficiency is buffed to 15%. Will gen's always be too fast or will they be just right when you can end the game at 4 gens every time as killer?
9 -
I mean, yeah? If you make a mistake, that mistake should be somewhat punishing. That's what a mistake is.
As for the original topic, I'm on the fence. It'll allow efficient Survivors to repair gens while leaving the Survivor on the hook for longer, which is a pretty nasty strategy since you can bang out most of a gen and THEN go for the save with basically nothing lost anyway.
Then again, camping is annoying to go against, so it being less effective in general is a good thing for survivors. I feel it'll make an already effective tactic have a much larger margin of error, though, which isn't really a good thing.
"Gens before friends" strategy is surprisingly good if you know how to manage hook timers and not just immediately bomb towards the unhook. I'm leaning towards this being a negative change overall.
3 -
Really just a big boost for smart survivors. Many times I have found myself hooking someone and then going to find someone else and 3 gens pop. I could usually return back to hook to secure a second stage or force a trade but now it will be more difficult. In those scenarios I’ll probably just force stage two and then tunnel them out immediately. I’m not buying the whole “punishing camping” because they already have base kit Anti Camp and they have Camaraderie and Reassurance which were made just for that reason.
2 -
We don’t need to make a slippery slope fallacy.
3 -
It's realistically not going to change much.
7 -
I have 6200 Hours in the game and I'm a Killer Main. I'm even a Bubba Main.
Increased hook phases are good and bad in the same time. It's hard to tell. If it gonna push Killers to play more for chases and apply pressure - that's great. Removing camping & boring Gameplay is very good idea. But in the same time it makes Killer harder to punish Survivors for their mistakes and late reactions. After hooking a Survivor, Killer is going away to get another chase. He played well and ended chase quickly. Survivors choosed to stay on the Generator and they finished the Generator before going to unhook and these additional 10 seconds give them opportunity to get a trade or even safe unhook. Just an example where Killer wanting to apply pressure in fun way and play for chases is punished and he can't punish Survivors for their mistakes. Like I said - it can be bad - it can be good. Personally I wouldn't change hook timer, but okay. I think adding Kindered Base Kit & Corrupt should be the next step.
4 -
Everything I've described has happened, and yet the same complaints about gen speeds persist. What will you be satisfied with because it really seems like you won't be satisified with any result other than the killer winning.
6 -
Not enough, make it 180 seconds and tunneling or camping will ceases to exist
0 -
The "comp" scene perfectly illustrates why this change only hurts killers who camp.
The best survivor strategy is to get your teammate out of time out and off hook as fast as possible, so those extra 10 seconds will never come into play if survivors have any choice in the matter.
What this should, and hopefully will do, is put more pressure on killers who want to stand still at a hook. Now, maybe they'll consider their time better spent pressuring survivors off gens instead of watching a literal piece of furniture whole the rest of the survivors do whatever they want (hint: it's gens).
So, if the killer decides that standing around and letting survivors do gens for free is the best play, they're kinda the exact players this change is targeting tbh.
8 -
Gen times increased by 10 seconds, hook times increased by 10 seconds. It’s proportional in a linear way, which is fine.
5 -
It's a slight buff to kinship and reassurance too which is interesting
now 1 reassurance can make a hook stage last 100 seconds, almost 2 minutes lol
1 -
What's Kinship, we only have Camaraderie here.
1 -
Killer generator perks have been nerfed multiple times. And sometimes we are directly told it’s because killer generator perks need to be balanced around the possibility of killers stacking multiple of them together.
The same should apply to survivor generator perks/item/addons. The survivor generator stuff should be balanced around the possibility of survivors stacking multiple of them, and the fact that some toolboxes have 32 charges, is what causes all the stacking issues.
And let’s be real here. My only suggestion was for all toolboxes to have 16 charges, and that would make me happy. We don’t need to slippery slope here, that I’ll keep moving the goalposts until survivors auto-lose every game. Literally just make all toolboxes have 16 charges…… that’s it.
7 -
It’s not proportional though, because killer generator perks have been massively nerfed since then… but survivor generator stuff is still just as strong as it used to be.
And there is way too much value, when survivor generator stuff is stacked with a 32 charge toolbox.
7 -
It punishes camping more but it's not gonna do anything against tunneling, sadly.
3 -
I keep forgetting ST is back, I'm really out of the loop LOL
2 -
Why this style even punished. I think it should be player choice how to play. Put presure or stayed around hooked survivor. Developers ruin all fun from the game try make it healthier. You can say that stay around hook the entire game is not. I believe it should be player choice and not developers. Cause developers literally took away all freedom and just say "you play wrong, play like we say to you and no other way". Camp with insidious the only fun killer can have in this game and now they ruined even this. I understand why the doing this, cause last year update only favours survivors and killers get nerfs after nerfs. So its not a surprise that new patch would be the same (only buffs for survivors and only nerfs for killers).
0 -
The devs have decided that camping isn't the way they want the game to be played.
In a big picture sense, the killer drives the core part of the game, especially since it's pvp. If the killer is afk, the game is just "do gens and leave", and there's no interaction at all. When the killer just stands at a hook, there's a bit of interaction in the first chase, but there are still 3 survivors out there. If you stand at a hook waiting around, doing nothing, you're not engaging in pvp at that point.
The devs aren't taking anything away from anyone. If you enjoy sitting at a hook, that's still your choice. It's a slightly less efficient choice now, and you may want to consider pressuring survivors instead.
7 -
10 more seconds to have your teammates work on gens is all I see coming from this. Might be nice for solo queue survivors but it’s a major buff to SWFs doing gens.
10 -
our fellow solo q randoms will now crouch behind a rock for an extra 10 seconds
0 -
the community and game kind of pushed for tunneling since 7th anniversery
and i honestly cant help but think "killer nerf bad, killer buff good"
no offense but after the 7.6.0 changes that nobody fought against,
and people complaining about anti-camp.
its hard to gain sympathetic and see the bigger picture
i know this is just going to make killers tunnel more,
which isnt really that much of a difference to what they do already
survivors run anti-tunnel to win
killers run anti-regression to win
unless they change that core mechanic and have both sides not run same meta
call me just the biased survivor main who doesnt care, but this is just what i think
but overall for me i do think this on paper should make camping less interesting, only wierd it took 2 years to do this change
(they did the gen-time increase in 6.1.0)0 -
Good. Had a game last night where the killer just camped first 2 survivors to death then slugged for 4k.
Soloq needed this.
3 -
Good
0 -
I mean it's the right direction but I'm not sure if it's going to be super meaningful. Someone who wants to do nothing but camp with deadlock/grim embrace/DMS is still going to do that.
2 -
This is a fine change, I suppose, it disencourages camping (good for all sides, in terms of fun), it helps solo q, as solo q teammates often have the mentality of "I'm sure someone else will get it", so I get to stare at 3 teammates doing gens while i die, only for them to save me when im hitting stage 2, which is incredibly unfun.
But I can see it being annoying in comp circles and, to a degree, sweaty matches, it messes up a lot of the killers pressure, as a hook is now so much less important or scary, if anything, nerfing hooking might make slugging more valuable and be used more, but hopefully not.
It will help solo q (good), stop camping being so bad (good), encourage chases and ending chases quickly in order to have more pressure (good but also double edged, might make tunnelling and slugging more encouraged) and gives sweat squads and comp teams more time to levy saves (definitely fun for survivors, altruistic plays are the most fun things imo for surv, but could lead to seeming unfair situations for killer where survivors can seemingly mess around and play carelessly, take hits and reset many times, and still be able to pull off a save in the endgame).
Overall, it's positive, and I cannot see it being an awful change, or some life saving messiah as some might say, and the negative I mention is more of a nit pick and will likely not affect you unless you happen to have 10,000 hours, a phobia of grass and an interest in competitive dbd.
0 -
Terrible game design. It should be 90 per hook state.
0 -
my question is, where is generator defence perk buffs in this patch? Like whole reason why generator defence perk were nerfed was to make killer less reliant on generator defence perks. The way they did that is by making camp more effective. Now they're nerfing camping, so where is generator defence perks at?
Increases hook stage - > survivor can gen-rush more by leaving survivors longer on hooks but the killer don't have same gen perks they had prior to said change. My thought on this change is gen-rushing is stronger and killer got all their perk nerfed.
so where is all base-kit generator regress stuff at or what perks are killers suppose to use that have high impact like before?
11 -
The first idea that comes to mind is "gens-before-friends is now more powerful".
That means the killer will have to punish it even more harshly, tunneling being the first option coming to mind.
7
