70 seconds hook states duration. Let's talk about it.

case in point: first match of the day, 2nd stage first hook while 2 teammates ran around near hook; 1 was actually in chase and the other was playing as if he was injured on death hook (last guy on gen which is fine)

again, not the buff anyone is making it out to be. Majority of games will be unaffected because solo q teammates only know how to optimize inefficiency and poor decision making

"EXACTLY THIS. Couldn't explain it better."

and yet, I still got someone replying: "There's no scenario where "killer isn't camping" and "extra 10 seconds of hook time" are both going to affect the game at once. Ever." when I point it out.

I literally explained exactly what happens and where the time goes and how it WILL affect the game, and someone replies that it wont affect the game.

I think I've given up on this game altogether, its not fun to play anymore. The game is dead. Winning as killer doesnt feel fun or rewarding because of how difficult it is. If it wasnt difficult its probably because someone on the team or all of them gave up, which is another story. Name me one other game that exists where its not fun to win. Its so backwards. I have grown to hate this game. Most people only play it because theyre addicted.

So tell me, in this magical, fantasy scenario you dreamed up... Exactly how many survivors do you think are running:

1. Resurgence (lol)
2. Second wind
3. Off the record
4. Decisive strike
5. Dead hard

At the same time?

Think about it real hard for me.

thanks for the advice. i'm going to be honest, this change won't change much for me because i rarely confirm stages and that's only when survivors are way too late for the save and i haven't seen another for the full duration of a hook stage. survivors will be able to stick to gens and thus will be more likely to finish them before having to go for the save but still, fine. i'm just annoyed by those clueless one side players, their lackluster arguments and their attempts to belittle the concerns of people. just 3%, just wait it out, just don't tunnel/camp 4Head before even being able to grasp their effects outside of said scenarios.

back to your response, yes not standing at the hook isn't the best way to apply pressure, i by no means meant that and the duration increase change's impact in such cases so i in fact run around, can find people to start different chases. my point is survivors will have a wider window to correct their mistakes, to prepare for a save if needed and ofc to do gens before having to go save. they also will be able to afford avoiding chases (by hiding or not trying to bait the killer into an easy looking chase). i only agree with you that now killer has 10 more seconds to down the survivor they were chasing and go back to hook to confirm/prevent reset against greedy survivors that save last second.

Its not the best, but at least its a fine change. More coordinated teams will """""""abuse"""""" these 10 extra seconds to stay on gens or save at the last second possible, kind of ""punishing"" not only camping killers but even those who play going for any chases but not leaving gens to go for a save.

Anyway, since they are changing some of the weaker killers basekit to make them more stronger overall i don't think this will be a problem.

Medkits aren't butchered. I still see a lot of people use them.

Similarly, changing all toolboxes to be 16 charges, won't butcher them either. They'll still be useful for repairing generators, and they can still easily sabotage hooks.

Your math isn't relevant. I see so many people use medkits, that they obviously haven't been butchered. Do you know what has been butchered? Ultimate weapon, that I've literally seen zero times since the latest nerf. That's what butchered means…where it's so bad that people don't want to use them anymore. Meanwhile, I see medkits galore, so obviously many people still think they are good.

And Alex's Toolbox is by far the best sabotage toolbox, so you shouldn't even be using a 32 charge toolbox for sabotages if you are going for the best choice. And if Alex's Toolbox really needs to be 18 charges, then just turn all the 32 charge toolboxes to 16 charges, and call it good enough. Because let's be real here… when we have 16/16/16/18/32 charges for regular toolboxes, the 32 is way out of line.

Camping yes, but tunneling? How does increasing the hook timer combat that?

Maybe half of the tunneling situations happen bc. survivors get unhooked before the killer even had time to find another target. And even if they are chasing someone and drop the chase to tunnel, the additional seconds only have any impact for last-second unhooks. In this situations, dropping the chase to tunnel might even be detrimental, compared to downing the current target and then focus the prev surv afterwards (which I wouldn't call tunneling anymore).

So imo, longer hook states do nothing about tunneling in general, just because tunneling is most effective when unhooks happen fast. There may be some situations where it might help a bit, but these are rare and not your typical hardcore-tunneling situations we want to get rid of.

Oh not all survivors, but always having a different survivor on hook does mean you can benefit more from different weaknesses. If you hook the same survivor 3 times in a row, you are basically facing the same strenghts and weaknesses the entire match. Which could be hugely beneficial (which is why tunnelling specifically needs a nerf, not hooks, but BHVR understandibly doesnt want to risk implementing something OP), but also very detrimental. Swapping between survivors means you get to see more weaknesses and really hit where it hurts, while tunnelling only hurts 1 survivor in reality and thats not fun.

Optimally, you want survivor 1 hooked, then 2, then 1, then 3, then 1 for a kill, then 2, then 4, then 3, then 2 for another kill and then 4 so you can chase down 3 without having to search out hatch. And this logic is theoretically what should grant you the most pressure. And it does in the current meta, the only killers that dont, are C tier killers and lower.

The biggest issue people have playing killer, is admitting defeat in a chase after cleansing some pallets and keep on with the goose chase. That survivor has used resources in an area and is taking you to a new area with new resources. In that case, especially if that survivor is injured, just go find another survivor. It takes someone else off a gen, and you can push them to the same resourceless area that the other teammate used before, in the meantime the other resources get dropped.
Creating deadzones is the least utilized mechanic modern day killers use, because tunneling is easy and has a similar impact. If we punish tunnelling, creating deadzones would become higher priority again. And for some killers (like clown), a dropped pallet is often worth more than a broken pallet, so they dont even have to kick pallets, because vaulting is slower than running through. That didnt use to be the case, where vaulting was faster than running. And barely anyone is actively using that information except people who manage to get C tier killers into extreme high mmr.

That all is to say, tunnelling early game should be a net negative thing for killers and only be done when absolutely neccesary. And I have done the maths for something that basically does exactly that, benefit the most tunnelled survivor, and it doesnt impact the killer in any realistic way unless he tunnels.

Alot of the time the killer will proxycamp the hooked survivor so they can easily tunnel them. Longer hook stages makes it so it wastes the killers time more.

If they are playing a high mobility killer they could potentially go back to the hook fast tho so for those it probaly wouldnt change too much.

Survivors going for immediate saves were never the problem, I am more concerned about how more viable the "gens before friends - oh wait we still have time to keep the cake and eat it!" strategy will be, BUT I guess thats still better then camping someone out. Gens are already flying off the shelves these days, and the increased timer will give the GOOD survivors even less incentive to leave their gens.

But alas, I also think that it will be as @Aven_Fallen said: the change will come and one or two weeks from now some peeps will still grumble, but most will have accepted it and already adapted their tactics.

Its easier for the survivor to get away and hide/heal from the killer if the killer isnt closeby the hook when the survivor gets unhooked.

It also takes longer for the killer to tunnel out the survivor simply by the hook stages being longer and the fact that i said earlier that the survivor could potentially hide and/or heal.

This change is mostly going to hurt camping but it will also slightly hurt tunneling.

Nah the trick is to camp smart, camp but don't make it obvious. Make it look like it's safe for unhook but when they go for it, tunnel em. If it's a whole team of smart pro loopers then not camping wouldn't help much because it would leave the hooked guy open to be freed and I would still have to spend ages trying to catch a pro looper which could end up with 0k at the end. It's a judgment call I suppose, 70 seconds of camping v 70 seconds of trying to catch another looper while the other goes free. If it takes longer than 70 seconds to catch someone then I might as well sit on the hook and secure a kill. It might bite me on the butt on occasions but i still think it's worth securing a kill where I can get them, won't reduce camping. I'm thinking Myers double iri, proxi camp by hook, when they jump of mori em.

The two of you aren't arguing over the math, you're arguing over what the definition of what 'butchered' means in the context of the game.

Time will tell but the years of playing, the years of updates, tweaks, anti camping, anti tunneling hasn't changed anything really so I don't see how it will suddenly change over 10 more seconds each phase. If anything the changes made previously has taught me how to camp and tunnel more efficiently. Getting a player out of the game asap has always been the best tactic for a killer, camping and tunneling is an effective way to do this. That's not belief that's fact based on my games over the years and how I get 3/4k very regularly. But like I say time will tell if it does change.

I mean, not necessarily?

"Butchered" implies that the massive nerf resulted in the thing in question - medkits, here - being actually like. Bad, or terrible, or not worth running. It's worth contesting that considering that medkits are still very good and the second strongest survivor item.

Your maths aren't irrelevant, as the user you're arguing with says, but they are misleading, because they miss that the previous iteration of medkits you're comparing to were overpowered. They took a big hit, yes, but they went from "game breaking" to "decent". The word "butchered" would be an odd one to use for that outcome.

For the record, I do disagree with the proposed toolbox nerf up there. The better way of nerfing toolboxes to make them worthwhile but not OP is to replace the gen repair speed entirely, maybe with something like protection from regression. Current brown toolboxes aren't worth it for gen repair, but a Commodious with the right addons and perks is completely broken, that kind of variance is very tough to fix just by tweaking numbers.

Regarding medkits, it's a little strange to consider a change "butchering" an item when that item is still very strong afterwards. It's just a little odd to look at something as powerful as medkits and say they're butchered, I don't think anyone who points that out is necessarily being irrational and emotional.

Y'know, mathematically it looks like a brutal change that diminished them entirely. In reality, they're still really good. So, the maths alone can be a little misleading.

Sorry this took 3 minutes to post. Apparently I got hit by the anti-spam system the forum has when I wasn't trying to spam. Anyway...

In terms of things that are most likely to kill the game, this is one of them.

It's obviously going to be abused. Survivors can sit on gens for 10 seconds longer, and still run to hook at the last second and get a hook trade that's not in the killer's favor. The math in relation to time already didn't agree with the killer. Now it's just more pressure the killer has to delay with from him hooking people, which is what he's supposed to do. A gen is done in 90 seconds solo, a hook state takes 70. But if you go to pressure gens, what's the best chase you're gonna get against good players? 45? That's the enough time for 2 survivors to do a gen, or get 2 of them to 50%. So no, it's not a great change because it makes the survivor-sided math worse.