70 seconds hook states duration. Let's talk about it.
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case in point: first match of the day, 2nd stage first hook while 2 teammates ran around near hook; 1 was actually in chase and the other was playing as if he was injured on death hook (last guy on gen which is fine)
again, not the buff anyone is making it out to be. Majority of games will be unaffected because solo q teammates only know how to optimize inefficiency and poor decision making
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If your chasing someone while already atleast half way across the map and don't have the mobility of Billy on a open map, how the hell is that more effective than continuing the chase? We won't deny sometimes it's more effective but many times it's not if the survivors have brain cells.
There currently is rewards. First is some perks only activate on fresh hooks. Second is you become better at pressuring multiple survivors. (You never said rewards you want)
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"EXACTLY THIS. Couldn't explain it better."
and yet, I still got someone replying: "There's no scenario where "killer isn't camping" and "extra 10 seconds of hook time" are both going to affect the game at once. Ever." when I point it out.
I literally explained exactly what happens and where the time goes and how it WILL affect the game, and someone replies that it wont affect the game.
I think I've given up on this game altogether, its not fun to play anymore. The game is dead. Winning as killer doesnt feel fun or rewarding because of how difficult it is. If it wasnt difficult its probably because someone on the team or all of them gave up, which is another story. Name me one other game that exists where its not fun to win. Its so backwards. I have grown to hate this game. Most people only play it because theyre addicted.
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to all the "just don't camp lol" people that filled the thread: i'm about to explain very basic macro. this change isn't only a hindrance to campers just like ds buff wasn't a hindrance and annoyance only to tunnelers.
ahem. first, hooked survivors provide ✨pressure✨ because now one person has to leave their gen to head for the unhook, affecting tempo of the game. now that they have more time, they don't have to make quick decisions and take quick actions, it's harder to force their hands after a wrong call.
second, now people can go for "gens before frens" for longer, sticking to their gens and hide from the killer with less of a rush to get the unhook.
third, sometimes you have to think ahead to get an unhook against a camping (how dare they) or non camping killer. you have got to pre emptively heal one person so they can get the trade, especially against a legion or plague. for example if you give free unhooks against non cleansers as plague you are throwing. now they have more time to realize and correct their mistake.
i'm starting to think your ideal match is against a killer that hooks one person and starts looking for hiding rats, giving free reset despite not being able to find anybody else. at the same time they aren't allowed to tunnel (a person easier to find due to being injured), or hold 3 gens. they can't rely on auras to find people because of distortion and aura perks are cringe that show killers have 0 tracking skills. they shouldn't make strategic calls and capitalize on mistakes, they should just spend the entire match looking for hiding survivors and eat pallets.
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So tell me, in this magical, fantasy scenario you dreamed up... Exactly how many survivors do you think are running:
- Resurgence (lol)
- Second wind
- Off the record
- Decisive strike
- Dead hard
At the same time?
Think about it real hard for me.
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The next step in understanding killer macro is to consider the wider game happening after these snapshots.
So, when you have a hook, that hooked survivor provides pressure because someone has to react to deal with them. You are 100% correct on that point, and just to drill down on it further, we'll define 'pressure' in this conversation as "survivors taking actions other than generator repair as a response to killer actions".
To take the next step, we'll ask the following question: While one survivor is peeling away to get the save, thus providing pressure, what is the killer doing?
The answer is simple: Generating more pressure.
To maximise the pressure that you get from a hook, you would necessarily go and chase a third survivor, leaving only one to do generators. If survivors stick on their gens and neglect the save until it becomes more pressing, you have more time to actually gain something out of the chase you're in. In other words, the survivors choosing to "gens before frens" are now accepting a risk. If their chased teammate goes down before they leave to get the save, the killer has the upper hand and will continue to push that advantage by not letting the team reset.
The ideal match obviously does not involve killers wasting time looking for survivors. The ideal match here - from the killer perspective, mind you - involves already knowing where survivors are due to a combination of info perks and just keeping track of where you see survivors during a chase, and going straight to them after a hook. If you, as a killer, find yourself needing to stick by a hook because you can't find survivors quick enough, that's a flaw in your gameplay that you can and should be working to correct.
Distortion exists but it can't be used as an excuse here. There are non-aura tracking perks that aren't affected by Distortion, and there are aura perks/combos that counter Distortion, not the other way around— on top of, not to be too blunt here, base game tracking tools and remembering where survivors were when you last saw them.
Be active. Generate pressure. You're going to be left behind as the devs address every way of circumventing that otherwise.
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thanks for the advice. i'm going to be honest, this change won't change much for me because i rarely confirm stages and that's only when survivors are way too late for the save and i haven't seen another for the full duration of a hook stage. survivors will be able to stick to gens and thus will be more likely to finish them before having to go for the save but still, fine. i'm just annoyed by those clueless one side players, their lackluster arguments and their attempts to belittle the concerns of people. just 3%, just wait it out, just don't tunnel/camp 4Head before even being able to grasp their effects outside of said scenarios.
back to your response, yes not standing at the hook isn't the best way to apply pressure, i by no means meant that and the duration increase change's impact in such cases so i in fact run around, can find people to start different chases. my point is survivors will have a wider window to correct their mistakes, to prepare for a save if needed and ofc to do gens before having to go save. they also will be able to afford avoiding chases (by hiding or not trying to bait the killer into an easy looking chase). i only agree with you that now killer has 10 more seconds to down the survivor they were chasing and go back to hook to confirm/prevent reset against greedy survivors that save last second.
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I mean again, changing all toolboxes to 16 charges would be a short-sighted foolish mistake. Medkits could have been made more similar without butchering them, and yet still in their butchered state being more powerful than 32 charge toolboxes when add-ons are included for both.
You are misunderstanding the circumstances. We didn't nerf gen slowdown because of the potential for all gen slowdown. We nerfed slowdown because too many people were bringing all gen slowdown. When 3/4 Survivors start bringing the sweatlord gen builds, like Killers were, then we can nerf the Survivor sweatlord gen builds. When only 1 person per lobby (max) is bringing the sweatlord gen build, it is equivalent to 1.5 gen slowdown at most.
There is no double standard, because we aren't balancing around the worst case scenario, we are balancing around the most frequent/common scenario. If we were balancing around the worst extremes, there would have been Killer bans for Survivor by now, Map bans for Killer by now, bleedouts would give the Killer a temp ban, hiding without touching gens for 10m would result in an entity kill and a temp ban, and more.
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Its not the best, but at least its a fine change. More coordinated teams will """""""abuse"""""" these 10 extra seconds to stay on gens or save at the last second possible, kind of ""punishing"" not only camping killers but even those who play going for any chases but not leaving gens to go for a save.
Anyway, since they are changing some of the weaker killers basekit to make them more stronger overall i don't think this will be a problem.
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this is a good idea but poorly done . There needs to be a way to get the killer in chase immediatelly after unhooking . The amount of times even as survivor the liller hooks comes to my gen doesn't find me and goes back to hook because after 30+ seconds he finds nobody so who is he supposed to chase. Hate me but i think if distorsion does get a nerf maybe it will help the gameplay flow of going for alot of chases. Stealth goes had in had with killers going back to hook as they can't see anyone else.
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Medkits aren't butchered. I still see a lot of people use them.
Similarly, changing all toolboxes to be 16 charges, won't butcher them either. They'll still be useful for repairing generators, and they can still easily sabotage hooks.
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Medkits not butchered? Lets look at them new left, old right.
Brown: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 35% altruism | 1 heal, 25% altruism
Yellow: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 40% altruism | 1.5 heals, 35% altruism
Green: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 45% altruism | 1 heal, 50% all
Purple: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 50% altruism | 2 heals, 50% altruism, skill check zone sizes buffed 16%/15% Good/Great
So we went from actual variety, to a boring 5% altruistic per rank. How did they not get butchered? I mean heck, why did they even need to get rid of the Purple skill check bonuses (especially since they reduced healing Greats from 5%[1s] to 3%[0.6s] as well separately)?
Even if we can get past that, how could 16 charge toolboxes do anything of value? Sabos would NEED to be dropped to 2-3 charges per sabo, as with 6 per sabo that only allows 2(.66) sabos per box. Even then, if we were to take the Brown +50% up to the Purple +100% (which are already 16 charges each), they only yield 5.33s→8s of saved time (to not get into the skillcheck aspect). As I've already explained, a Brown Medkit saves 8s, so why should the best Toolbox only be as good as the worst medkit?
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Your math isn't relevant. I see so many people use medkits, that they obviously haven't been butchered. Do you know what has been butchered? Ultimate weapon, that I've literally seen zero times since the latest nerf. That's what butchered means…where it's so bad that people don't want to use them anymore. Meanwhile, I see medkits galore, so obviously many people still think they are good.
And Alex's Toolbox is by far the best sabotage toolbox, so you shouldn't even be using a 32 charge toolbox for sabotages if you are going for the best choice. And if Alex's Toolbox really needs to be 18 charges, then just turn all the 32 charge toolboxes to 16 charges, and call it good enough. Because let's be real here… when we have 16/16/16/18/32 charges for regular toolboxes, the 32 is way out of line.
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I can't speak for everyone but I can say is in my opinion, camping and tunneling to get 3 v 1 asap will still be worth the sacrifice of a couple of gens.
I could go after a guy on gen but if it's a team of really good loopers then I'm setting myself up for a lose. Nah if the others want to get a few gens done while I camp and tunnel it's fine, I would rather deal with 3 survivors and have 1 gen left than deal with 4 and have 2 or 3 gens left. Protecting that last gen and the endgame is usually where I get the most hooks ending in 3/4k sometimes 3k only because hatch is unavoidable in some cases regardless of how many gens are done. Especially when it spawns at the survivors feet after not doing any gens the whole match lol
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Camping yes, but tunneling? How does increasing the hook timer combat that?
Maybe half of the tunneling situations happen bc. survivors get unhooked before the killer even had time to find another target. And even if they are chasing someone and drop the chase to tunnel, the additional seconds only have any impact for last-second unhooks. In this situations, dropping the chase to tunnel might even be detrimental, compared to downing the current target and then focus the prev surv afterwards (which I wouldn't call tunneling anymore).
So imo, longer hook states do nothing about tunneling in general, just because tunneling is most effective when unhooks happen fast. There may be some situations where it might help a bit, but these are rare and not your typical hardcore-tunneling situations we want to get rid of.
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In the vast majority of cases, while they do have 10 seconds more to unhook, you have 10 seconds more to chase and prevent that unhook from happening afterwards too, meaning that survivors have less room to be sloppy and threading the needle, while you have a bigger timewindow to make up for sloppyness.
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Oh not all survivors, but always having a different survivor on hook does mean you can benefit more from different weaknesses. If you hook the same survivor 3 times in a row, you are basically facing the same strenghts and weaknesses the entire match. Which could be hugely beneficial (which is why tunnelling specifically needs a nerf, not hooks, but BHVR understandibly doesnt want to risk implementing something OP), but also very detrimental. Swapping between survivors means you get to see more weaknesses and really hit where it hurts, while tunnelling only hurts 1 survivor in reality and thats not fun.
Optimally, you want survivor 1 hooked, then 2, then 1, then 3, then 1 for a kill, then 2, then 4, then 3, then 2 for another kill and then 4 so you can chase down 3 without having to search out hatch. And this logic is theoretically what should grant you the most pressure. And it does in the current meta, the only killers that dont, are C tier killers and lower.
The biggest issue people have playing killer, is admitting defeat in a chase after cleansing some pallets and keep on with the goose chase. That survivor has used resources in an area and is taking you to a new area with new resources. In that case, especially if that survivor is injured, just go find another survivor. It takes someone else off a gen, and you can push them to the same resourceless area that the other teammate used before, in the meantime the other resources get dropped.
Creating deadzones is the least utilized mechanic modern day killers use, because tunneling is easy and has a similar impact. If we punish tunnelling, creating deadzones would become higher priority again. And for some killers (like clown), a dropped pallet is often worth more than a broken pallet, so they dont even have to kick pallets, because vaulting is slower than running through. That didnt use to be the case, where vaulting was faster than running. And barely anyone is actively using that information except people who manage to get C tier killers into extreme high mmr.
That all is to say, tunnelling early game should be a net negative thing for killers and only be done when absolutely neccesary. And I have done the maths for something that basically does exactly that, benefit the most tunnelled survivor, and it doesnt impact the killer in any realistic way unless he tunnels.0 -
And when you eventually get to the point where the whole team is both smart and good loopers…then what?
Your free to do whatever, but the point stands that sitting at a hook for over a minute while 3 other survivors work on gens without any worry is usually gonna bite campers in the butt if the survivors are smart.
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Alot of the time the killer will proxycamp the hooked survivor so they can easily tunnel them. Longer hook stages makes it so it wastes the killers time more.
If they are playing a high mobility killer they could potentially go back to the hook fast tho so for those it probaly wouldnt change too much.
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No it won't. Whenever any change is done to survivor, the comments come charging saying: "This will increase tunnelling!", and it never does.
You won't even need to tunnel! Just hook and hunt. Keep the pressure on the Survivors. There are ways to win which don't require someone to play fishing simulator with the hooks.
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Survivors going for immediate saves were never the problem, I am more concerned about how more viable the "gens before friends - oh wait we still have time to keep the cake and eat it!" strategy will be, BUT I guess thats still better then camping someone out. Gens are already flying off the shelves these days, and the increased timer will give the GOOD survivors even less incentive to leave their gens.
But alas, I also think that it will be as @Aven_Fallen said: the change will come and one or two weeks from now some peeps will still grumble, but most will have accepted it and already adapted their tactics.
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But then the increased hook timer still only works against the (proxy) camping aspect, but not the tunneling one. One that only if the survs actually use the extra seconds they are given. So stating that this change combats tunneling is a pretty big stretch in my book.
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Its easier for the survivor to get away and hide/heal from the killer if the killer isnt closeby the hook when the survivor gets unhooked.
It also takes longer for the killer to tunnel out the survivor simply by the hook stages being longer and the fact that i said earlier that the survivor could potentially hide and/or heal.
This change is mostly going to hurt camping but it will also slightly hurt tunneling.
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I mean by saying math isn't relevant you acknowledge you aren't logically attached to your position, but emotionally attached. I can't logic someone out of an emotional belief, and logic is my only tool to persuade.
I would argue against the sabo point, but as stated above, my tools are math and logic, and you aren't swayed by those. Although I do agree 32 is way out of line when they needlessly nerfed Alex from 24 to 18. Alex should be returned to 24.
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Nah the trick is to camp smart, camp but don't make it obvious. Make it look like it's safe for unhook but when they go for it, tunnel em. If it's a whole team of smart pro loopers then not camping wouldn't help much because it would leave the hooked guy open to be freed and I would still have to spend ages trying to catch a pro looper which could end up with 0k at the end. It's a judgment call I suppose, 70 seconds of camping v 70 seconds of trying to catch another looper while the other goes free. If it takes longer than 70 seconds to catch someone then I might as well sit on the hook and secure a kill. It might bite me on the butt on occasions but i still think it's worth securing a kill where I can get them, won't reduce camping. I'm thinking Myers double iri, proxi camp by hook, when they jump of mori em.
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believe what ya will, we're getting bored pointing out the same obvious flaws with this again and again.
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The two of you aren't arguing over the math, you're arguing over what the definition of what 'butchered' means in the context of the game.
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The complaints about which specific word used to describe a massive nerf is meaningless semantics to the greater point. When I can show things side by side and they are throwing them out because "Your math isn't relevant.", then they are showing it is because it is an emotional reaction, not a logical one.
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Time will tell but the years of playing, the years of updates, tweaks, anti camping, anti tunneling hasn't changed anything really so I don't see how it will suddenly change over 10 more seconds each phase. If anything the changes made previously has taught me how to camp and tunnel more efficiently. Getting a player out of the game asap has always been the best tactic for a killer, camping and tunneling is an effective way to do this. That's not belief that's fact based on my games over the years and how I get 3/4k very regularly. But like I say time will tell if it does change.
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70 sec ? Unnecessary. because we have counter perks and killer gen regress perks are got huge nerf. And we have the anti-camp mechanic.
And BHVR forces with that more static and boring gameplay.
Survivor like me i will do with this change when its going live my main objective more aggressivly .
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I mean, not necessarily?
"Butchered" implies that the massive nerf resulted in the thing in question - medkits, here - being actually like. Bad, or terrible, or not worth running. It's worth contesting that considering that medkits are still very good and the second strongest survivor item.
Your maths aren't irrelevant, as the user you're arguing with says, but they are misleading, because they miss that the previous iteration of medkits you're comparing to were overpowered. They took a big hit, yes, but they went from "game breaking" to "decent". The word "butchered" would be an odd one to use for that outcome.
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The issue is that an old Purple Medkit could save 32s basekit (2 self heals at 32 possible gen seconds total, vs 64 possible gen seconds from 2 altruistic heals), and now it is saving 8s from a self heal (24 gen seconds self vs 32 gen seconds altruistic). That is 25% of it's former glory in terms of time saved. Now while I agree that med-kit nerfs were necessary, I don't think they should have gotten a 75% nerf. At the very least they should have kept the Purple's skill check bonus, like something.
I would consider anything over a 50% nerf butchered. I think the issue though is whether or not it was justified, which again medkits needed nerfs as you say and I agree, they were overpowered. All of this though is missing the forest for the trees, when we consider the 'best' toolbox does an 8s timesave from purple, or 10.66s from the one Green.
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For the record, I do disagree with the proposed toolbox nerf up there. The better way of nerfing toolboxes to make them worthwhile but not OP is to replace the gen repair speed entirely, maybe with something like protection from regression. Current brown toolboxes aren't worth it for gen repair, but a Commodious with the right addons and perks is completely broken, that kind of variance is very tough to fix just by tweaking numbers.
Regarding medkits, it's a little strange to consider a change "butchering" an item when that item is still very strong afterwards. It's just a little odd to look at something as powerful as medkits and say they're butchered, I don't think anyone who points that out is necessarily being irrational and emotional.
Y'know, mathematically it looks like a brutal change that diminished them entirely. In reality, they're still really good. So, the maths alone can be a little misleading.
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Yeah I also am on the same page with Commodious being the problem child. I would almost say making both Alex and Commodious/event 24 charge boxes (and reducing Alex's universal Toolbox Skillcheck bonus from 40% to 16% or the normal 8%) would probably be for the best. Arguably all boxes should probably be 50% repair max, and they get different skillcheck bonuses based on their current % bonus difference (so the 100% Purple would be 50% and 40% skillchecks, the 75% green be 50% and 32% skillchecks, and 50% be 24% skillchecks).
So laid out clearer Proposed Left Current Right
C = Charges, R = Repair Speed, SK = Skillcheck rate (no toolbox is 8% for reference), Sabos unchanged from current, changes bold
Brown 16C 50%R 24%SK | 16C 50%R 40%SK
Yellow 20C 50%R 24%SK | 20C 50%R 40%SK
Commodious 24C 50%R 24%SK | 32C 50%R 40%SK
Mechanic's 16C 50%R 32%SK | 16C 75%R 40%SK
Alex's 24C 10%R 16%SK | 18C 10%R 40%SK
Engineer's 16C 50%R 40%SK | 16C 100%R 40%SK
Overall though, this is getting too far off topic (and probably was multiple posts ago), so I'll let you have the last word here. Also if you want to continue this topic, just start a toolbox specific thread and @ me.
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Sorry this took 3 minutes to post. Apparently I got hit by the anti-spam system the forum has when I wasn't trying to spam. Anyway...
In terms of things that are most likely to kill the game, this is one of them.
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That seems a bit dramatic. What makes you think it's going to be that bad?
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It's obviously going to be abused. Survivors can sit on gens for 10 seconds longer, and still run to hook at the last second and get a hook trade that's not in the killer's favor. The math in relation to time already didn't agree with the killer. Now it's just more pressure the killer has to delay with from him hooking people, which is what he's supposed to do. A gen is done in 90 seconds solo, a hook state takes 70. But if you go to pressure gens, what's the best chase you're gonna get against good players? 45? That's the enough time for 2 survivors to do a gen, or get 2 of them to 50%. So no, it's not a great change because it makes the survivor-sided math worse.
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I'm excited to try it. I don't think it will make much of an impact on anyone except killers that proxy camp, which is nice.
I guess it would also harm the comp community, since they do not use the anti-facecamp feature and securing second stage is a common tactic. Wouldn't hurt to throw some settings/options in customs to tweak values like this?
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