is it me or is the 2v1 situation getting insufferable?
lately, the absolute worst games of dbd have been games that end up in a 2v1 situation.
after two survivors are dead, and you have two survivors alive with a killer. all three people in this situation want to win, so what is the best option for each?
for the survivors, it's to wait for your teammate to die. for the killer, it's to keep patrolling the generators to make sure they don't get done.
the objective of the survivor team has changed, and now the killer has no information and almost no relevance to the actual game at hand any more. the killer has nothing to do and no information to act upon unless they either have a perk to help them or one of the survivors gives up.
and then, when one of the survivors actually is downed… well, if you kill that survivor, the hatch will spawn and the last one might get out. so for as long as there is one survivor on the floor, the remaining survivor and the killer are playing the same game: hide and seek. except there's someone on the floor, having been taken hostage.
a lot of developer time was spent dealing with things like camping and tunnelling. but when will the developers start considering the problem of the 2v1 situation? when the priorities of the survivors shift, and the game becomes extremely boring?
what would you do to address this, if you were a developer?
i think i would make it so that, in the 2v1 situation, the survivors start to build up idle crows any time they aren't on a generator, and putting one of the survivors into the dying state immediately triggers the mori animation on that survivor.
i would then adjust all achievements and archives that require 4 kills to only require 3 kills.
no more hide and seek, please. no more slugging for the 4k, please. i want to play the video game and i cannot stand it when i am taken hostage by survivors that don't want to show themselves, or by killers that don't want to give up their 4k.
Comments
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I mean that's been a thing for years. If there's only 2 survivors left and multiple gens left, or even one with zero progress, there's no chance of getting the gens done, and since the killer is usually patrolling the gens at that point, actually trying to do the gens is a death wish. The second they start a gen they'll get found and chased.
You can't really blame them too much since playing for hatch at that point is the only reasonable play. But yes it is an issue and making idle crows only be held off by doing gens, healing, and unhooking is the easiest fix I guess.
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It seems you want the game to end with a 4K once 2 survivors are dead if there is more than 1 gen left to complete.
I hoped those long killer queue times were a wake up call for what happens if you continuously repel from playing survivor. But nope. Some gotta learn the hard way.14 -
do you even play this game? did you even understand my post at all?
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Yeah it's what I've been saying for awhile now. There needs to either be a catch up mechanic or alternate win condition when it's a 2v1
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I cant wait for it to be over.
As survivor none of my team does gens.
As killer, gens go so fast we cant keep up. as killer I wish they had 10 to do, as survivor I wish we only had to do 4.
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It seems like you stopped reading and jumped to conclusions. This post was about trying to get rid of the end of many matches which consists of survivors trying to outlast their teammate rather than do objectives and killers slugging for the 4k. I don't understand how you equated that to "wanting a 4k after 2 die". It's just to speed up what would otherwise be a long drawn out end. Survivors could still do gens and maybe both escape... 1 survivor could get hatch OR they both die. The above solution does not give an advantage to the killer that would somehow result in a 4k they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
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Your response was uncharacteristically rude.
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you were rude to me. people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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My statement wasn’t rude at all. You just didn’t like it. You want killers to receive notifications when there are two survivors remaining facing insurmountable odds (multiple gens left to complete) who don’t reveal themselves. Instead of sleuthing them out. Your argument isn’t a rubik’s cube.
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I get these situations from time to time.
Suddenly there are only 2 survivors left and 2 gens to be done.
Nothing happens for a couple of minutes then a courageous one decides to work on a gen.
Usually I leave him alone and find the other one and kill him. The courageous one gets the hatch.
I've yet to have a game with two cowards.
A solution implemented by the defunct VHS was that if no interaction happens between the killer and the survivor (monster and teens in that case) for about a minute, then they would see each other's position until something happens.A minute may be short but something like that could be implemented.2 -
so if you understand my post, why did you then sensationalise that the game would automatically end in a 4k every single time, and then say that killers deserved to suffer?
once one of the two survivors is downed, they get automatically mori'd, and then the hatch opens. you're right, it's not complicated - so why be so intense in your response? especially when what you're saying wouldn't happen?
my entire suggestion boils down to: once the 2v1 ends with a last man standing, just kill one of the survivors. force the game to move to hatch stage, so that people don't get held hostage any more by well-meaning players that are just doing their best.
do you enjoy being held hostage?
do you enjoy holding other players hostage?
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I think Killer Instinct should activate in intermittent intervals, decreasing as time goes on.
For example, three minutes after the second Survivor dies, Killer Instinct activates. Then two minutes later it activates again and so on....
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i'm against survivors insta dying on the ground to prevent slugging for 4k. killer is entitled to their 4k just as the last survivor is to hiding to get hatch. i might be #1 hatch hater so removing it would be my way to go and if not improving afk crows could work as well. if there is no progress being made on any generator at all, all remaining survivors start to get afk crows.
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Getting? it always has been. It sucks for both sides.
Trying to change it though has players (survivor mains) clamoring that "you just want a 4K" or some such nonsense. So you need to be careful with how you do it and make sure they get something from it as well.
The previous suggestion about the 3rd survivor just getting moried coupled with a detection system after a long period of no chase happening could work imo.
The problem with tying the detection to gens is survivors will just wait until you check a gen and leave, work on it for 2 seconds then hide again to refresh their timer. Tying it to chase ensures that something happens to move the game forward.
Ensuring hatch will spawn and the survivors get found. Survivors can't whine about their pity escape being taken, slugging for the 4K is addressed, and the match doesn't take ages just because 2 survivors died.
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New Basekit Survivor Perk: Rock, Paper, Dead.
When only two survivors are left, Rock, Paper, Dead activates. Each survivor chooses an option, after a best of three, the loser drops dead on the spot.
Problem solved.
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i'd take it tbh.
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being someone who plays both killer and survivor on this forum can be so annoying, because you always have people who only play one side insisting and demanding that you're from the other side trying to destroy the game, when really you just want the match to finish so you can play another one.
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Agreed.
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It's always been insufferable. I'm always the one who hops on a gen while my team mate hides, but then the killer will just slug me half the time.
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This is so true. Every piece of critique gets immediately labeled as some evil propaganda against whatever side is being discussed lol
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You were even more rude, unbelievable you even call someone rude to be honest
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I've always thought one of the main problems with DbD is that when the game heavily turns in the killer's favor it gets very boring and can also take a long time. Solutions however are more difficult.
I feel like idle crows would be fine, but not necessarily solve things. It's not that hard to touch a gen and then stealth. I've also been in situations where I haven't touched a gen for awhile in a 2v1 and it doesn't have anything to do with hiding: I and the other survivor (soloq) looking for each other to heal up so one of us can take chase and the other to work on the gen.
I go back and forth on whether a 'mercy' rule would be good for the game. That would be if the killer gets far enough ahead, the game just ends. It would feel wrong given the game's theme, and there inevitably would be situations where the killer gets a win where the survivors still felt like they could come back, but it would definitely speed up pointless games.
It's kind of like your auto mori in a 2v1 scenario after a down. 90, 95% of games where that happens I suspect the auto-mori improves the game. But the other games you probably have complaints 'we just about had a gen finished, the downed survivor had deliverance and unbreakable, we still could have gotten a two man out!'
You also have two other scenarios: newer players might not understand why the killer gets an 'advantage' and it just feels lopsided, and there may be killer players who prefer to play it out (which baffles me greatly, but I have encountered players who want that before).
Agree with you that it's a problem. If I was developing the game just for myself, I put in a mercy mechanic where after a survivor is killed the game looks at total gen progress and if it is below a certain number, the killer wins and the game ends. But that would just be for me, not sure how popular that would be with the overall game community.
Edit to add: Looking back at the title wanted to add this doesn't seem to be any more frequent. It's not a common occurrence, but does happen enough that it does hamper enjoyment of the game.
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Slug em....slug em both if it takes a long time to find them then they wouldn't mind spending a long time slugged.
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It's not that hard to touch a gen and then stealth.
they can just make it require a big enough amount of progress to avoid crows so a single tap wouldn't work, and that progress would be shared across all alive survivors.
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Hatch is a bad mechanic. Look at how most 2v8 matches end. What they need to do is have a "closing out the match" mechanic that's in the killer's favor, not the survivors'. It's the only way. Why is the killer holding the game hostage and issue, but survivors doing that is par for the course once it's down to 2 people? Why do survivors need a free escape, but it's "unfair" that the killer can close it? All the explanations are feelings-based, not logic-based. Hence the soon-to-be hidden prestige update.
So remove hatch. If the survivors don't progress their objective, show their aura, even through lockers. Survivors being able to "juke" and hide from killers all the time (because of bad sounds and scratch marks), to reset for free, has been taken for granted. The survivors need to face risk to escape, which means doing their objective (gens), or else they don't get out at all. Not just playing hide and seek forever. Under both the current system and this new system, I'd ask both survivors to keep playing despite the odds.
The myth that it's impossible to do the last 1-2 gens once it's down to 2 survivors has been debunked. It's not always gonna happen, but if what lot's of people are saying is correct that, "I can loop plenty, but I lose because my teammates can't" then now's your time to shine. Loop the killer for like a minute, minute and 1/2, and assuming you or your teammate have 1 or more hook states to give before you die, that's almost 2 gens done. The killer can't be at a gen, at a hook, and chase you both at the same time, so they lose the war of attrition just like they would in the 1v4. If all else fails, you practiced your looping. And that's what the average survivor in this game needs: an incentive to get better. Buffing survivor over and over is never gonna bring solo close to swf level. To improve, the survivors need threat, which current killer isn't consistent in because they're either sweating their butts off to get a draw match, or they win and the lucky 4th survivor escapes anyway cuz hatch.
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I think… this is another part of why Distortion is being changed. Ratting like this isn't okay.
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Seems to be right. When 2 survivors have died and there are plenty of generators still to be repaired things like this do happen, although there are sometimes things are quite different. The idyllic course of action for survivors would be using one of them as bait to keep the killer on a chase while the other repairs. However you heavily rely on the skills of the bait, which could be counterproductive if they are not that good in chase. And if the killer refuses to chase you can start repairing and fleeing as soon as the killer's comming, expecially now that there is a limit of kicks a killer can use on each generator. I know these strategies can lead to certainly tedious games but they can work just fine
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Maybe there is a perfect amount of time for touching a gen, but it seems like if it is too small its pointless, if its too long the survivors feel stuck on the gens and there's no point.
On the second part, why share it across all survivors? That just becomes a game of chicken where first survivor to do a gen loses.
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This does feel like a tricky problem. On one hand, playing hide and seek can feel really boring and can be frustrating to deal with and can feel unfair. On the other, survivors currently don’t have much of a comeback system in play at all, so to expect them to be able to complete a game that was designed for 4 with only 2 also feels frustrating and unfair. And more often than not if a killer finds you on a gen in this end game scenario, they will just kill you. They're not going to be looking for your teammate who is hiding out so it’s not as if you get any kind of incentive to try and complete the gens when hiding is rewarded more so than not.
As it stands right now it’s like a lose-lose for everyone. It reminds me of a Michael waiting to insta kill that last survivor who is in a locker. Neither is wrong in my opinion, the one who wants to die vs the one who wants to kill. I believe that it was not considered taking the game hostage as either player has the power to end it, it’s just a matter of stubbornness.
Im not disagreeing that something can be done to improve these end games, but I don’t think it’s wrong for either side to stay in the game.
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You know how I deal with it?
I choose to be the bigger survivor and I simply make a loud noise notification so the killer chases me.
I will die and the other survivor gets to attempt to escape, and I get what I play survivor for: chases.
Try it next time, it will be way more exiting that waiting for the other guy to die
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i wish you were in all my lobbies, but alas, i have been held hostage by survivors several times because neither one wants to die.
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It depends on what you play survivor for
I judge the quality of my matches based on how many chases I get
so naturally I find getting chased more fun than waiting
make the choice next time, and then ask yourself the following question:
Was getting chased more fun? or would it have been more fun staying out of sight?
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They had a solution to this ages ago, but removed it because it removed agency from the killer. When Hatches spawned based of players remaining count and gen count. It encouraged players to continue to do them. As there was a possibility of escape. But now if you have multiple gens and its down to 2. There is no reason to touch them. Behavior has in their constant need to make sure killers have agency. Have severely hampered survivor agency. This can be viewed in alot of killers losing the risk in their power kits. EX, Huntress getting a ton of hatchets, Billy being having almost no down time on chainsaw with no overhead and way faster handling, Bubba had his stun from hitting a wall reduced and collision reduced, Doctor is getting cds on all his abilitys especially if they miss, the list goes on and on. Then add in the reworks for maps are getting crazy, Haddenfield is absolute garbage, basically every vault is unsafe because there is an opening somewhere right near it. And they keep shrinking the maps to be smaller and smaller, Again haddenfield is small enough you can stand in the middle and see both walls from opposite sides, making things like watching both doors form a single spot, (Which again is a 0 survivor agency situation) But people just shug and are like oh well its bad rng. Which is incorrect. Its bad design that, that can happen. They have stated both side should feel like they have agency but survivors can easily be placed in multiple situations of no agency.
If they simply add something to force survivors to be revealed then again you are stripping survivors of their only option at that point of the game, the hatch. If you remove the hatch. Then you will see survivors give up even more then they do now because once a game looks like it isnt survivable. People arn't going to stick around which in turn makes it worse for any remaining survivor. They could look at having something like sole survivor add 25% gen repair per player killed. This would allow survivors to gain benifits to try to do stuff even with 2 because by then the gen will only take 45. Instead of 90 seconds as the issue is even if you had 6 gens left a killer can check them all well before you can finish one by yourself. But even that isnt great because it requires a perk slot instead of an in game system that could give survivors a chance of escape. If you want survivors on the gens you need some sort of system that either speeds up their ability to complete them, or something that will distract the killer so that they can finish the full 90 seconds. But without anything like that in place. There just simply isnt a reason to get on a gen, when you are behind and its down to 2.
And if you unfortunately don't like that. Well Killers tunnel and camp and claim its perfectly fine strats, so I would argue the same about hide and waiting out hatch. Both strats deny players the ability to play the game to try to gain an edge at winning it.8 -
i have no idea what the ideal amount would be but it definitely shouldn't be too small
it would be shared so a survivor hiding from a nearby killer wouldn't get crows while other survivor is doing their gen without any killer attention. it would just be stealthing and doing gens as people normally do.
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The path of least resistance would be making a killer-sided mechanic that forces interaction. But this is literally only because it's a common opinion that killers are entitled to getting a 4k.
If hatch opened at two survivors left for one of them, it would solve the problem of hiding but then 4k's would be a lot less common.
As I see it, they have three options:
- Put in the killer favored mechanic and hope survivors suck it up.
- Put in the effort to make a unique mechanic that'd lead to more pity escapes.
- Do nothing.
It makes sense why nothing has been done. it's not an easy choice.
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The major problem with a mechanic like this is slugging for the 4k.
In that situation, you have 2v1, and there's a fairly long time where it's completely unreasonable to expect the last survivor to touch a gen. In the most extended scenario, where the last survivor standing is actually successful in hiding, there's 4 minutes for the other survivor to bleed out, a minute or two of hatch searching, and potentially another 2 minutes of EGC.
So, the game mechanics account for about 8-9 minutes of not touching gens as normal gameplay.
If you're going to just give away the survivors' position, just cut to the chase: the entity just eats everyone like EGC and the killer gets a free 4k if 2 survivors and any number of gens remain. That's really the end goal here anyway, if we're being honest.
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Not having hatch, and instead giving killer aura reads, means they've simply got to try instead of waiting for their teammate to be killed. Hiding is just non-gameplay. And it's not hopeless either. Try and loop the killer for the last 1-2 gens. It might not work, but you can play as safe as you need since you no longer have to save pallets for teammates or avoid creating deadzones. You can just go all-out in chase, and the killer might not even be playing to his full potential since he thinks he's gonna win, the last gen gets done and then at least one of you is out. That would be the same result as a hatch escape, but it wasn't just a free jump in.
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Not having hatch and instead giving killer aura reads means that 99% of matches in which the killer gets a 2k with +1gen remainging will be an unavoidable 4k, unless the killer is outright trolling or let them go on purpose.
This would force BHVR to heavily nerf all killers so that getting a 2k would be as hard as current 4k.
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these suggestions are being made to combat 2v1 hide and seek part of the game and that's not possible if you try to align it with the needs of a ratting survivor because killer will just slug for 4k unless they are given a reason not to, so the problem will remain unsolved
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On my part, i dont mind facing an inevitable death. But sometimes, im surprised how long i can survive a chase against 2 killers. Dont forget that theres like infinite pallet. Its like maps are pallet land
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Sad fact is,nobody wants to volunteer to eat dirt because we all know the killer will never kill survivor #3....you will 100% be slugged so you may as well just play until the server closes and hope your team mate dies.
The only thing that gives a survivor confidence to volunteer to be the slug is when there is a far off exponential in play. Can't fault anybody for not wanting to be slugged, because what PC players don't understand is that console players can't just tab out
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I think that the best option would be to give survivors a percentage speed boost on gens when there are only 2 of them left because as a survivor trying to continue the game, it sucks equally. If they aren't doing gens, healing, cleaning totems, then they get crows 65% faster. Actions that would make you functionally AFK in game like crouching around the map, hiding in lockers, etc. To remove the crows, you need to perform a relevant function (do a gen, heal another survivor, take chase, for an allotted amount of time or be downed by killer.)
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You are creating a lot of what if situations. Like all the pallets are somehow up? Negative. Again it just seems like a killer complaining that hatch exists and it prevents them from getting 4 k's and not a real suggestion. If the match is lost the only reason to sit on a gen is to get caught so you can get out of the match sooner. Which will be the mentality of the survivors when they feel the match isnt worth continuing so you will be making the survivor gameplay worse. But clearly you don't care about that because you only want the killer side of the gameplay to be enjoyable. You ignored my comments of how it will ruin the mentality of the survivor side which already people are giving up on hook states, this would only compound the issue. And again if you want to say it isnt gameplay neither is camping or tunneling which you conveniently left out of your response. Being able to find someone is about the same gameplay level as counting to 10 then swinging at the tunneled target.
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If survivors are hiding and doing nothing in that case I would suggest probably make it so crows show up like 50% faster so at least people are forced to eventually at least walk away whatever hiding spot they are camping. For the survivors let's say that there is 2 survivors left and say still 2 gens left. Or even 3 survivors left because one person died at the start of the game. I would give survivors extra 20% repairing speed and make it so the person on the hook can stay on the hook 10 seconds longer or something like that. If a survivor dies early game the killer usually wins and what ends up happening is one survivor will be on a gen, one gets chased and the other one is already on the hook doing nothing. If the killer downs the other survivor the one survivor on gen has to stop repairing and go to save the person on the hook and there is no time to do gens anymore. Not that these changes would make much difference but it's just an example like give survivors something in 3v1 or 2v1 scenarios
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2k with 1 gen remaining is already an unavoidable 4k unless the killer is outright trolling, I don't see any of the your point
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In the common 2 surv +1gen scenario, survivors play for hatch normally as they cannot realistically repair the remaining gens. The chances of escaping are slim of course, as the killer can still slug the third surv for 4minutes to keep searching for the last one. Still the chance is still there that maybe one can get hatch.
Removing Hatch and giving aura read on top of that is just outright gifting a 4k to the killer every time they manage to kill two surv early, with no chance of comeback.
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So survivors know they are completely utterly 100% lost and starts hiding to get "last one awards", which doesn't counts as win for most purpose, I wouldn't call that a comeback mechanics even
I don't even understand the point in giving comeback from literally every situation in PvP games, ultimately why don't we just remove any of the skill expression and make everything pure RNG, we will absolutely have "comeback" from whatever situation in that kind of games
And no, we don't even know if they actually counts hatch escape as escape for their balancing purpose, so "killers will be nerfed" is moot point
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Would you rather have survivors give up and throwing themselves to the killer whenever they have a rough start? Because that's probably what would happen if you remove any hope of somehow escaping, even by hatch and buff the killer when it's already winning.
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That'll certainly speed up each matches without doubt, and it really wouldn't change the actual outcome anyway
even though I like hide'n'seek with plenty of time at the end there is fair amount of players who hates 4k slug or existence of hatches, so it would be win win for either sides, kinda
I'd say just sacrifice everyone at that point but whatsoever
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Then, as i said before, if the outcome wont change and a 2k will lead to a 4k in the majority of games, not only will be a spike in people giving up but also the devs will be forced to balance the game around killers achieving a 2k 60% of times. This can only be done by nerfing killers heavily.
And for the record, Hatch escapes do count as escape in the kill rates.
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