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We need more courage from the Developers
Comparing DBD to other games, the changes happen so slow, and they're usually so small, it's like they're afraid to make changes. Even when a new patch comes on, it doesn't feel like a big difference.
I understand that the community has strong opinions on stuff and once they got used to something, it's hard to change that cause they will rage, but we have the PTB.
I just don't understand why don't they just implement a bigger number of changes to the PTB, and just add the ones that felt good in the new patch, leaving the others behind.
It's a bit mind boggling to me that they only introduce a bunch of small changes in each PTB, that should be the place where chaos ensues, you can easily make changes to 10-15 killers in the PTB and then only implement the changes to 5 for example. And you can continously test all kinds of stuff.
Having the PTB be like 80-90% similar to the live game seems counter-productive to me
Comments
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The last time they tried a major change it was the basekit unbreakable/mori. It didn't go well.
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So what? That doesn't mean they should stop trying, that was a pretty nice idea on paper, if it didn't work it didn't work, on to the next one
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But they are still working on it, they're just making it a smaller and smaller concept.
More broadly speaking, the game is popular, people like it, it has a good size playerbase. You don't come in and make massive changes to something that is working, you make incremental adjustments.
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But I didn't suggest making massive changes to the live game, just making massive changes to the PTB and then adding what feels good and polished enough
Yeah the game is popular, yeah people play it, but it gets pretty boring pretty quick, as there's barely anything new being added to the game.
Adjusting a few seconds or a few % on some perks, or adding niche perks that nobody will ever use, and even if they use, they will only get value once every couple of games doesn't do anything to the game.
You can basically take a 3-5 month pause from the game, come back, and everything will be mostly the same
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They’ve made some bolder choices (UI hud, basekit killer features). What’s your idea of bold here?
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Yeah the game is popular, yeah people play it, but it gets pretty boring pretty quick, as there's barely anything new being added to the game.DbD is far from a new game. If it got boring pretty quick for all of its players, it would have died many years ago.
Lots of people like the gameplay loop as it is. So much so that thousands of hours of playtime is pretty normal. On top of that, the different portions of the player base want to pull the game in radically different directions. If they introduced a large scale change in the PTB, player feedback would be all over the place, so you wouldn't have much evidence on whether it is a generally good change or not.
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They have limited bandwidth per update. Probably no point in getting peoples hopes up if they can't actually implement much when all is said and done
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I understand what you're suggesting, and to some extent we agree, but if I could add to this: Trying out bold new things isn't free. Any change that we spend time programming, adding animation, art, SFX or any other work to that goes to the PTB and gets scrapped is time that is effectively wasted. That time could have gone into other improvement that would have actually gone live.
The reality is there's only so much time to work on changes between each update. We pack as much as we can into each one and there's always more we want to do.
Lately we've taken to doing smaller incremental changes to a larger number of Perks and Killers most of the time rather than large ones to only one or two. There's a couple reasons why we do this:
- People who use those Killers/Perks get more frequent changes without having to wait for a large scale rework which may be pushed back repeatedly until there's enough room for it.
- It allows us to see how a set of balance changes affects things before committing to further changes and risking over buffing or over nerfing something. (For context, the PTB does not use ranked matchmaking and people take time to adjust, so we can only learn so much.)
- Smaller bundles of changes tend to be safer and have less risk of being reverted, meaning more changes actually make it to the live game.
To the last point in the original post, having fewer things that need to change between PTB and live is a good thing. It means that they're in a safe enough spot that we can monitor how they play out in the live game. I want to stress the fact that nothing that goes live is final, everything is subject to change if needed. On the flipside, pushing a ton of changes to the PTB and having to backtrack most of them before they go live is a bad thing for development because it takes time and resources to a) make those changes in the first place, and b) rework or revert those changes before the live release. Both take development time away from other positive changes we could be making. It's also worth noting that the window between PTB to live is fairly small due to certification, so we don't have the luxury of making massive changes between the two.
I absolutely get the sentiment, and there are times where we test larger changes without intending to push them live. But our goal is to get as close to the target as possible with the first try, then fine tune from there.
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The DEV make slow, incremental changes to maintain the game. Remember, while it is a game to us it is their job. Killing the goose that lays the golden eggs due to impatience masquerading as "courage" would be a tragic consequence. The fact the game slowly making its way toward the decade mark, still going strong, I think their method of approach has proved to be successful overall.
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I don't want the Devs to get so out of hand they ruin the game I already love.
The Devs also only have so much time. This is a big game. It's been alive for 8 Foggin' years now. It's got tons of characters, it's got hundreds of perks and many many maps. The Devs need to consider ALL of this. Changes take time and little changes more often are better than big sweeping changes less often. It makes players feel heard, and gives the Devs a smaller workload.
Do you really want the Devs to crunch so hard they end up burnt out and ruin the game or don't change anything anymore? Or do you want the game to be its best?
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I want different changes from the usual "this perk got 1 more second of blindness on it", "we've increased the movement speed from 5% to 6% on this perk", "we've added a bit of this addon as base kit to this killer, and changed the addon accordingly". I also don't understand how those kind of changes take months, those types of changes would be literal hotfixes in other games, but somehow for the DBD Devs, it takes 3 months to adjust some silly numbers
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
I mean, the devs read what people write on the forums. That takes some courage.
Not for me though. I'm just stupid.
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I really appreciate the new way on your side, the developers, that you give killers smaller tweaks and/or QoL changes instead waiting for them until these killers get their complete rework. This is a much better way to make some killers more playable until they get better to play. I also assume that this means, we will get an Addon rework for Nemesis which is highly requested(?).
I want to stress the fact that nothing that goes live is final, everything is subject to change if needed.
Does that mean you really keep an eye on Perks that you've changed? I don't have any official stats so I can only use nightlightgg for reference: You made the huge mistake to make Iron Will too strong again for free. It is currently the fifth most used Perk in the game because it is a really strong Perk. You've nerfed Pop a few patches ago because it was too free (winning a chase by downing a survivor, hook them, and make it in time to find a generator with good progress to pop it) and too popular and now we have this actuall reason with Iron Will. It is more than obvious that you buff Perks to make them more usable (and this is good) but when you overbuff Perks, players will only use these Perks which means other Perks get used less. In addition, you brought back the old metagame on the survivor: So many survivors run DH, IW, DS, and Filler (Resilience/Unbreakable/WoO). How it is possible that we travel back in time? This was the metabuild for survivors before you did the huge metachange more than two years ago.
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Ok, but why do simple numbers changes take forever?
Why can't you look at something and see its too weak, and pump up its numbers a bit, or vice versa for things that are too strong.
Yes, not everything that needs changes falls in this category, sometimes things need to be reworked. But those reworks take forever, wouldn't it be better to nerf or buff something by a few numbers while a rework happens? It literally takes 5 seconds to do.
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With the current BHVR release cycle, it appears there are always at least six separate active DLC projects in development at a time, with most of these projects having strict 'do it in a year' deadlines, and that's without considering all the new modes and skins and whatnot being made and released alongside them.
No, I'm not happy with how DBD's release cycle often ends up harming the game or leaving great concepts out to dry, but telling the devs to simply find some courage when BHVR offices probably function like SpongeBob on fire inside his own head won't do any good in my opinion.
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I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think the pace of change in this game is quite acceptable and reasonable. We get new killers and survivors quarterly. Updates at the same time plus at least one update mid chapter. Events are even more frequent with most major holidays celebrated. Plus we get alternate game modes sprinkled in there periodically. Battle passes and new skins regularly added. If you compare the game today to when it was released then you will see just how much the game has massively changed. I don't know what more a reasonable person could possibly expect.
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Such small changes yet breaks so much.
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That's the real threat. The bug testers probably haven't seen their families in months.
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The massive failure of the Twins rework has traumatized Devs cause of the massive amount of time wasted just for it to be hated. The Knight "Rework" which nobody wanted but forced live regardless of feedback so they are hard focused on number tweaks so i dont expect the Skull Merchant to get another rework just number nerfs
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Isn't this the exact situation the Fog Whisperers and other programs are for? To have a touch on the pulse of the community, and what they would like or not like? That just sounds like they failed to use the resources available to them.
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idk tbh but i do believe Devs should give earlier indepth changes notes going to be tested on the PTB so it can be discussed among the community beforehand to see if some changes are to radical before committing to these changes
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"We get new killers and survivors quarterly"
Bruh, you are living the illusion that you get new killers and survivors. Survivors are basically just a skin first of all, second of all, like 80% of all the "new" perks, are just some things we already have, but twisted around.
We're not getting anything new really. We haven't got anything fancy in a while now
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You do realize why they do that, right?
It's because if you give someone the tools to take an inch, they will instead take a mile. We're talking your four gen slowdown Killers and SWFs all running genrush builds here.
THAT is why the changes are small tweaks or small buffs. So as not to create horrid imbalance that breaks the game the way CoBRuption or MFT did.Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
You should have saw it like 4 years ago. They are sooooo much better at addressing stuff now. That doesnt mean there isnt room for improvement
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I really like the way you are going with killer buffs instead of reworks. I‘m not really a fan of reworks when they could easily have been fixed with buffs or nerfs. It feels very bad for those who have learned to love one of your characters only for them to be something completely different. I still hope for a Sadako revert to her release mechanics (with passive condemned and one tv condemned). This version was the most fun and closest to her lore, I wished you would have just buffed her instead of the reworks. You had so good ideas sadly for the wrong version like no pallet stun, shorter cooldowns and lock in condemned….
Please continue buffing perks and when you nerf perks, please don‘t overnerf them instead try to keep them still useful and good with their current effect. Also please try smaller nerfs for too strong perks first and faster, before nerfing them too hard after 6 months. Then you can still wait and look how they are affected.
Post edited by Langweilg on1 -
I'm happy with the changes they're making, the amount of buffs and improvements they've made to older or struggling killers to make them feel better basekit and be less addon reliant are fantastic and much appreciated, as are the perk improvements.
I still think there is an abundance of absolutely terrible perks that could use improvements though. Like why do the "Teamwork" perks have a 140 second cooldown still? Cut Loose has a 40 second cooldown while Quick and Quiet and now Dance with Me both have a 20 second cooldown, etc. Also stuff like Hangman's Trick and Territorial Imperative, etc.
But I'm actually happy with the way things are going, it feels like the balancing philosophy of the devs isn't based purely on stats anymore. Someone on the balance team knows what they're doing and it shows.
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I'm not saying that we shouldn't make any changes, but I think we should also listen to the opinions of users who play Killer a little more.
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The only complaint i have is perks and killer add-ons can get more bold and frequent changes, so many useless ones.
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well it was a very bad change they wanted to do.
And on the PTB, thats more marketing than anything else. Hardly do feedback make it to the live version. And if it does its just halfway.0 -
Well I'd be lying if I said I haven't noticed an increased frequency of changes. I remember when we used to wait years for simple changes to come out. But it's still a problem of the right changes being made. Everything that's being done is moving the game more and more towards tunneling, gen rushing, and noob crushing. Hits, downs, and hooks are becoming harder and harder PLUS each are becoming less and less worthwhile. Gens got a small slowdown a while back, but they're still ridiculous because 10 seconds doesn't change a thing. And with killer being so difficult, even for people with mad skill in that role, they're resorting to tunneling and slugging even mediocre teams for fear of losing, because that fear is actually well-founded.
Tunneled? Oh, didn't need to because it was a chill team. Didn't tunnel? Crushed by a well prepared team. Not so good team? Beats you anyway as long as the gens are steady. Want more killer variety? You've got it, except everyone below S tier must tunnel to compete. Want opponents who match your hours/skill level? Can't happen with killers because all the casual ones switched roles or quit. I haven't taken Rancor out of my build in like months. Every other match I play is a coin flip. Draw or naw? The others are either 4ks or 0ks.
Yet you never see killers struggling so much on the survivor side, because your teammates are garbage. It's like the matchmaking system intentionally creates mismatches so that both sides are miserable. The game isn't killer sided, nor is it survivor sided. It's SWF sided because no matter what, they don't get nerfed. A gen time debuff is the only solution. It's not "punished for playing with friends!" but it is balancing the game so that 1 player doesn't suffer an unfair advantage from 4 players. In many cases they have so much advantage that they can basically waste time toying with the killer, noob killer or not, and all 4 walk away unscathed. There was never a chance they'd lose unless they threw.
Word of advice: stop balancing around casuals. If they care about balance, they are not casuals. You balance around players with skill and hours, not people who claim to "we just want to play with friends" or that "DBD is a party game!" Survivors are skill-capped out as a role. They can barely exercise skill because there's so many tiles which the killer has to make 2-3 50/50 reads back to back to even reach the survivors. So they start inventing techs, challenges, bully with flashlights, etc. Killer, while you can grow to be infinitely better as killer, is a role chock full of players who know almost everything about certain killers, barely mess up in chase, and know the best builds. And they're still getting beaten all day because of the bad tiles. Other things factor in too, like survivors moving like they have rockets strapped to them every time they get hit or make even a few seconds' distance on the killer. But all this to say: stop balancing around people who don't know any of this stuff, or who can't have intelligent conversations about the game, and start balancing for your skilled/experienced playerbase like every other online game does!
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And the worst part about it is some of those perks used to be strong, and if their nerfs were reverted then they would only be half-decent, but the devs are still like "Nope!" Now that Counterforce is in, what about old Undying? Now that this new Dracula perk is coming, debuffing the obsession, what about a stronger Dying Light? Thanataphobia? Hangman's? Surveillance? And don't get me started on the add-ons. "This add-on is too OP even though it's purple or pink rarity!" Yet they won't use that mentality with survivor items or add-ons.
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Not that i want to act as if i know better. i know NOTHING about game development.
But it just sounds like, regarding the PTB, that the windows are just too short. Why not have a bigger window between live and PTB then? I can only guess its because there is an alredy very tight release schedule for all the new content we get basicly all 3 months, which is good for the game no doubt, keeps everything fresh. But also makes it harder to be more flexible when the community decides some things should be way diffrent than they are introduced in the ptb. I can see that one kinda combats the other and its very difficult to balance between the two.
But then i also dont really understand why certain things are pushed through regardless, like the finisher mori concept. Last time it was introduced it got rejected pretty harshly, so if time is so scarce, i personally wouldnt have invested more of it in something the community does not want. Same goes for the UI changes that noone was asking for. Obviously i dont know what happened behind the scenes, im 100% if you knew it wasnt going to be recieved well your company wouldnt have done it.
However, i like this. Some insight behind the scenes, reasoning for why things are how they are. This makes it so people dont have to come to their own conclusions why some things just dont work, it would be surely appreciated if we get to see more posts like this one. And for things like the UI changes, maybe just have more surveys. Again, i dont know about game development. But im working in customer department for my company and ive been way more sucsessfull actually talking to the customers and have surveys, many people are happy to share their opinions and it also makes them feel much more valued if they get to participate even for a tiny bit. Obvously our company is not run by our customers but they are the ones that know best what they want.
And we are much MUCH smaller, maybe it doesnt work on a bigger scale like this. But its worth a thought no?0 -
BHVR might be trying to make the finisher mori work, so they can sell more of the really expensive killer cosmetics like the Trapper bear, that have their own mori.
This means killers might get nerfed again, just so the finisher moris can get added to the game. If BHVR is willing to literally make a PTB with unlimited survivor unbreakables, then I can't imagine what other nerfs they are willing to make, to force finisher moris in the game.
I can tell you right now that any killer nerf at all isn't worth finisher moris. Getting nerfed, just so I can watch cutscenes more often, feels like an awful idea. Meanwhile, why is this having a higher priority than the giant problem we have right now, when there are 2 survivors left, and they both excessively hide and refuse to make real efforts to repair generators? Are we really going to get another nerf that will boost survivor escape rates, but zero solutions for survivors that are literally breaking the game rules and refusing to repair generators?
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its not even going to be more often, as the 4k requirment is pretty damn high
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and yeah, once it is a killer issiue, its not that important. This is the double standards im talking about all the time, its nothing new. And we will probably only get silence about this again, because we are right
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This. I'm very happy to see Killers basekit being buffed, rather than just buffing perks or nerfing Survivors entirely. Very few of the changes that have happened have actually nerfed or changed Survivor too badly. That's the direction we SHOULD be going, taking care of Killers to help them stay competitive and fun to play, while also keeping an eye on Survivor fun. I am very pleased to see that perks like Flashbang are getting buffs too, those are fun. Interactivity with the Killer is fun.
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