Would it benefit the game for perks in SWF to be unique?
I know that Survivors are gonna pitch a fit at me… but I'm not trying to ruin the SWF experience, so plz do hear me out first… My suggestion is:
You may only take 1 of each perk throughout the whole pre-lobby team…
For SoloQ, obviously anything goes, you take whatever you want, no limits…
However, the more of you that are in a SWF, the more limitations you have… and limitations encourage build diversity, which I personally find a lot of fun… making builds is a part of DBD that I really enjoy…
So what are the benefits?
Puts a small restriction on SWF, bringing SoloQ a little closer in strength on average
My thought process, is we talk a lot about bringing SoloQ up to SWF level, and there is a lot of contention about what Survivor should have to even out the playing field for SoloQ vs. SWF. People talk about basekit Kindred a lot for example, and I for one don't want basekit Kindred because excessive auras make things easy/boring for me. I find reading the HUD and making assumptions and tactical decisions based on the info I have stimulating as a survivor… and if I want access to those advantages I want to have to invest in it. However it is undeniable that comms in SWF makes Kindred something you don't really need, and if you are so inclined, you can take it to be even more precise in comms; have 1 player take it and be scouting/directing the team.
Having a limitation on SWF means a full team of solos can all have their strongest loadouts, 4 players at max kilter, whereas a SWF needs to trade off strength for the power of comms... this should bring both a little more in line on average.
Allows perks the freedom to be made a little stronger, and not held down by "being abusable in SWF"
We also importantly see how a lot of perks can't be buffed too much/made too strong for Survivor/SoloQ because you unfortunately also buff them for SWF as well, and things become more open to more abuse. We've all seen things like organised duos using Plot Twist, Power Struggle and Flip Flop under pallets to make life very hard for the killer. It IS counterable, but it's also dependent on the killer you're playing and can be quite obnoxious for certain killers with little they can do about it, becoming quite nasty if everyone is doing it on the team… but this only works with effective comms, it's almost impossible to pull this off for SoloQ.
For example Sabotage could be improved a lot… but there is this problem that if it is too good, an organised SWF team can use it to quite effectively bully the killer, and keep putting the killer in lose/lose scenarios. Thus Sabotage is made weak, and thus is hard to use for SoloQ. The effect of Weaving Spiders had a similar problem.
This issue gets diminished significantly if only 1 copy of a perk exists in the SWF loadout, which in turn allows a little more wiggle room for those perks to be made stronger overall, because they can't then be mass spammed by a team.
Promotes build diversity, and adds an interesting new layer to playing in a SWF
For anyone thinking this kills SWF, I'm not convinced it does. I for one would find building for SWF far more interesting, because instead of everyone just taking the strongest builds they can, we have to think about what perks we want to take, and what roles we want to occupy in our team. The whole team dynamic now takes a little more thought and becomes far more interesting, and the community at large starts thinking about combos they can try instead of everyone just taking Lithe, WoO, We'll Make It and Off the Record, or whatever.
So I ask, would such a thing be good for the DBD experience? I'd certainly enjoy it more on Survivor, what does the DBD community at large think?
Comments
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So if a new perk came out, and multiple people wanted to use it, either only one person could use it, or everyone has to go play solo?
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A fair point, that would be a downside, though I believe friends in comms would be able to resolve that issue without too much difficulty… I don't believe DBD players at large are completely incapable of navigating basic human interactions. 😏
Plus, as already mentioned, the need to collaborate on team builds also encourages exploring the perk via how it can also be supported, not just how it can be used in isolation. It becomes a collaboration where you're both exploring the perks limitations together… y'know… as friends. ^^
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That second paragraph sounds like a good way to explore the utility of perks.
It also serves as half decent marital advice lmao.
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The couple that dies in SWF together stays together? 🤣
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Fully support this and suggested myself many times.
I have a friend I play with and we both love AMN. It's great info tool for solo, but in swf you don't need it more than 1 for pallet pick up, so we just decide which of us will take it. There is nothing too complicated. You play minimum 5-7 matches with friends anyway, everyone easily can try new perks in SWF, and for duo it's not even a question.
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i think dbd is based off extremes.. 4 stealth perks, 4 repair perks, 4 chest search perks etc. limiting it reduces the fun. at the same time, bvhr under-tunes most perks because they can be stacked. Leads to have lots of very bad perks.
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Does it really reduce the fun though? It's different, but is it really less fun?
For stealth perks as an example your list includes: Distortion, Shadow Step, Lightweight, Light Footed, Off the Record, Urban Evasion, Fixated, Iron Will, Teamwork: Collective Stealth, Babysitter, Bite The Bullet, Lucky Star, Quick and Quiet, Dance With Me...
Right there are several flavours of perks doing similar things at various levels of strength/usage.
Distortion is the strongest, but has the additional benefit in comms of identifying killer aura perks easier, so the comms team can all go for a stealth playstyle, but make use of their individual flavours based on the collective information the team has.
I'd argue this is far more engaging, than 4 people taking Distortion for a team, and the other benefit of being able to make these perks stronger cause only 1 can exist in a SWF surely makes it equal, or even more fun?
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I like the idea from a killers PoV as facing an SWF is the worst experience ever, cant even get up to people before they pre run.
But i dont think people should ever have restrictions for playing with friends, no game does that and for good reason. The SWF issiue is unsolvable, BHVR shouldve listened to the people that said its a bad idea when they first introduced it, now it cant be removed not even circumcised.2 -
There are hundreds of perks in the game. Do you expect players to effectively have to learn twice as many effects than before?
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Also fair, though there is the search bar now that massively helps with that.
If you want a heal perk you can just type "Heal" to see all healing perks.
I you want a gen perk, you can just type "Repair" or "Generator" to see those.
Though admittedly there is a problem for new starters with friends who may not have many perks unlocked yet. That is also a fair downside.
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If you watch the big streamers who SWF they coordinate and do this. Not much of a handicap.
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Say it with me class:
"You can't punish people for playing with their friends"
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Define "Punish"
Inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offence, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code.
Define "Rule"
One of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity.
Are we saying that adding a rule to game for the improvement of the game is a punishment to the players?
Rules get added to games/sports all the time to enhance the gameplay of the game and make it more fair/engaging for all participants, such as the offside rule in Football, or the obstruction rule in Rugby.
Expanding the ruleset of a game is not a punishment, it is expanding the ruleset. The question asked in this thread is: does this rule benefit or hinder the game?
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I would give SWF penalities to complete generators like (30 sec more) and same for exit gate andddd they shouldn't be able to pick add on. If this is too much only the penalities.
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Overall we're not sure. Our own opinions aside, there's a number of pros and cons that sorta make it a wash to us, it wouldn't be strictly "beneficial".
Pros:
- Perks can be made "stronger" more immediately and less risk
- SWF bully squads loose some effectiveness
- Adds some perk diversity
- Killers can worry less about SWF power (we're admittedly reaching with this one)
Cons:
- It "punishes" playing with friends and using something outside the game ("punish": Inflict a penalty or sanction as retribution for an offence, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code. "Penalty" is being unable to use something if your swf mate uses it. The "transgression" is being in a SWF and/or using outside coms)
- It only adds diversity if people are in a SWF
- It might not add much diversity (ex: 2 duo swfs with both pairs running the same set)
- Competent solos can still abuse the stronger perks, even if it's harder.
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I've been saying this a lot. For every person who is a swf they can't bring on the same perks and I say even items. So a duo can't do this but one of the other 2 can have the same perks because they have nothing to do with the swf as an example.
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I kinda agree cause when I’m in a swf I always wished my friend would pick something that’s not similar and will help with a swf synergy. But sometimes we just wanna chill and troll (well me, with Nic C’s perks and Aestri’s lute). Like in a swf im the one that brings Bond and tells my team where to go.
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Agree with everything there.
Regarding the "penalty", it is a nerf in the grand scheme, so I can see how it'd be perceived as a penalty to SWF. I suppose the question is do the cons outweigh the pros?
There are 14 general perks, 78 non-licensed perks, and 44 non-licensed perks for survivor. A significant number of the main meta perks are available from the non-licensed cast... so personally I don't think the cons are much of a con... the only immediate concern I have is regarding brand new players... but ofc, I'd imagine their more seasoned friends would accommodate.
Ofc... I do understand I seem to be a bit of an oddball in all walks of gaming... I like having options in games, with nuance and meaningful choices relating to your individual playstyle. I take issue with things being the default best choice to use in any scenario... (for example... I hated World of Warcraft, cause there was one and only one viable build tree every time).
A lot of people like things that are strong, whereas I don't like using things that are strong at all... I wanna use what I feel like, and have good reasons to do it, but also compromises that I had to take as well. I didn't like MFT while it was riding high because there was literally no downside to it, but now I use it quite often.... and I tend to react favourably to nerfs regardless of which side it affects...
So yeah... I suppose I'm the weird guy that is probably not too qualified to answer what would be fun on everyone else's behalf 😅😅😅
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Not letting people use the perks they want because they are playing with their friends is a punishment. I hope this helps.
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That's up to the community to decide as if it gets enough attention we're sure the devs will look at it.
But the scenario of 4 friends who are brand new players joining DBD at the same time?~ (This is just for argument sake)
We're similar as we like options and customization. That said, what we think is more the problem is that while there's not many actual bad perks, no one wants them cause they're either to niche (not bad), not meta for the meta sheep, or are countered relatively easily by things killers have (ex: resurgence vs hemorrhage) vs the simple SB of run and go zoom and like.
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I personally wouldn't have a problem with this and would gladly switch up my perks to coordinate with my team.
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No. Use the search function to see why this idea is bad.
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Yes, the game would benefit from it and it would make the difference between SWF and SoloQ less.
SWF groups can use many Perks easier than SoloQ such as Head On, Background Player, Deliverance, Fogwise, Boon Circle Of Healing, or Mettle of Man. So they have a bigger pool of many good Perks. In addition, they don't need specific Perks that are necessary such as Kindred, Bond, or Emphatic Connection (necessary in that way that you know what I going on, what are your teammates doing, and where you needed). Beyond that, in SoloQ some Perks feel safer than others: Off The Record and DS feel better to use because you can't expect that your SoloQ members will bring Babysitter or Borrow Time to help you with tunnling. Meanwhile, SWF can use Babysitter, We'll Make It, Borrow Time, and Resurgence because they know who has it and who should go for the rescue. That some Perks are necessary in SoloQ than in SWF also results in the fact that SWF groups don't need some Perks which means they have free Perks slot which they can use for the strongest stuff in the game. It wouldn't also hurt SWF groups that much because they can communicat and say who should use which Perks. In fact, if a SWF uses the same Perks multiple times it shows how strong these Perks are.
Year, in my opinion it would benefit the game if the Perks of SWF groups has to be unique and there are no real contras. The good part about it is also that SoloQ would be uneffected from this.
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I suppose you're of the opinion that putting on a bike helmet is a punishment, because it's a slight inconvenience, regardless of whatever other effects it might have, positive or otherwise.
I'm sure you're capable of engaging with multiple talking points and providing a well formulated argument, like others who disagree have done in thsi thread.
However since you have decided to go for the 1 line, obvious and lazy comments, that probably came from the reading the title and nothing more, trying to shut down all conversation points with no engagement with the discussion whatsoever... No, it doesn't help at all.
Post edited by UndeddJester on1
