Either make it possible to give up or add the ability to pick yourself up to the survivor's base kit. I'm so sick and tired of crap killers being allowed to slug an entire lobby just because they think getting a 4K means anything. It's not fun, it's not fair, it should be bannable and there needs to be something that makes it no longer a strategy they can go for.
Its not smart to remove it entirely. You don't always have the option to hook someone.
They tried basekit unbreakable in a PTB. Survivors abused it. Blame people abusing stuff for why we don't have this.
As long as killer kits like Ghostface and Freddy remain ultra weak you can forget about it.
How about no… shall we remove some of your options for playing as well? If you all managed to get slugged you all got outplayed HARD. That's an issue with you and your team not the killer.
I think there should just be a "die faster" button when you're slugged. Like, cut the time in half when you press it or something.
It's only 4min to bleed out, it's the same time as end game timer when someone is hooked or slugged. It's really not that long. If bleed out time can be reduced willy nilly by a survivor then I would like to reduce end game timer willy nilly
I would say look at the reasons why killers slug rather than looking at slugging itself. I slug pretty often but it's not out of toxicity or because it's fun. It's because it's extremely common for the last 2 survivors to hide indefinitely hoping the other one dies so 1 can get hatch. I'm a killer and I'm going for as many kills as I can, to accomplish this I often need to slug them before they go into hiding and drag the game out even longer. When it's 2 left there is no telling how long it will be before the game ends. If that issue was solved there would probably be far less slugging.
Bleeding out is something else, but I've never understood what the problem with 4 man slugs is?!
I slugged a entire team with trickster before because they were all in one place and thought I'm no threat apparently, I won't let you punish me for downing all of them if they're so overconfident.
Ah yes, another good reason to implement finisher mori WITHOUT basekit unbreakable
Isn't the basekit Mori technically a way to prevent slugging forever though? Especially at 2v1 scenarios?
How would basekit Mori benefit 2 v 1? Wouldn't survivors still hide in hope that the other would get killed first? If that happens then killers could just not kill either survivor and wait until server time runs out.
I won more of my normal fair share of matches in that PTB because people were playing much too greedy. The 45s window made them more predictable (since only 1 person in my 10+games even bothered to bring UB), and Flip-Flop+Power Struggle users played too obviously so you just insta-pickup. No one was around to pallet save since they knew their buddies could pick themselves up, so that made pickups even safer for Killer.
The real problem with that PTB was Killers attempting the Mori system which allowed an instant win at all slugged. Even Killers that couldn't down people that fast were still attempting this boring playstyle, which basically encouraged ratting all game.
Oh boy.
So people can abuse it to gain an advantage like they do always when we get mechanics against "bad playstyles"?
How about we remove generators being progressed over 80 seconds at all but also make survivors perma exposed when they dont manage to complete a gen for 3 minutes. This is the equivalent suggsetion to yours just flipped. Advocating for a lose lose situation for one side.
I wouldnt mind basekit unbreakable if anytime survivors used it, they lost a hook stage.
and if they were to die on hook, they become moriable and next time they go down, they'll bleed out in 10 seconds unless killed/picked up.
This way survivors won't have to be slugged and the killer won't be punished for making objectively correct decisions that lead to the whole team (or most of it) lying on the floor as survivors will have a price to pay for a free reset or chance for it.
If anything, slugging is a direct consequence of an outdated and boring hook system that just slows the killer's gameplay down. Wouldnt mind devs getting rid of it took and finding something better.
that is good idea. you might as just delete hooking as concept though. the idea i had was that no mither decreased your bleed out timer every time you used it. The bleed out timer would decrease when another survivor heals a survivor of the floor. Unbreakable/Boon expo would retain same benefits as No mither but they would have higher recovery time.
You could just tie the slugging into hook states instead of bleed out timer. It would have similar effects.
what's the correlation between "slug an entire lobby" and "getting a 4k"? if the killer slugged all 4 (or however many) next step is hooking them but some killers will refuse to do so, and i'd suggest a surrender option just for these cases. if unanimous, all survivors die on the spot.
oh but if you mean slugging for 4k in a 2v1 you just gotta eat it as long as hatch exists. if survivors have the right to hide to get hatch, so does killer to prevent that. you can bring ub or expo if it bothers you this much.
It was both.
You literally can't say only one side abused it. Both sides abuse things.
The correlation depends on the Killer. The Twins, for example, seem almost designed for slugging. It is their most effective strategy. Likewise, a Bubba was clearly intended for dropping multiple Survivors at once, and slugging for him is natural. I'm sure you would rather fight him slugging around the map than camping, which he is also good at. Then there is a Myers in Tier-3, who would be wasting his limited power by spending time hooking people. Trapper, when the plan goes right, has his best shot when one is on the hook, and one or more is in a trap. The rest will be running to help the trapped one get free and slugging is ideal at this time. Plague, likewise, infects people when played correctly and hopefully gets everyone ready for an instant down. Wasting her one-shot ranged attack when in her power is insane. I could go on and on.
The important thing to remember is that every match is different. Some Killers are pretty much designed for one tactic or another. Sometimes Killers not so inclined also have tactical reasons to do it. Imagine you get into a match with a bunch of really good Loopers. Let's say you have a high MMR, and you are fighting some serious talent. You work hard to get one down and see a chance to get another. If you hook, and go about your business you are letting them reset. You have to run the same nearly impossible chase again. If I get SWF who are clearly coordinating and communicating with one another and hard to catch, I would rather slug and use their team mentality and info against them. I have a better chance bagging the lot with the odd slug here and there. Again, it depends on how the match is going. Sometimes you have to slug them all or face all four reset and rolling you. I'd rather have a win than a loss with a few more hooks.
All that being said, I don't go into a match with slugging, tunneling, camping, or whatever on my mind. I do whatever I have to in the moment. No plan survives contact with the enemy, so there isn't much point in having a full strategy worked out before you know who or what you are facing. For that reason, I don't judge Killers or Survivors for whatever legal tactic or trick they use. That is their business; mine is how I will react to counter. I don't think trying to complain or shame Players for using allowed, LEGAL tactics is ethical or has any class whatsoever.
Every killer I played against slugged. ######### boring as ######### mechanic. Done playing survivor for a while. So damn tedious.
um, i meant killer doesn't chase the last survivor in a 4v1 to deny hatch (slug for 4k), they do it so survivors won't bring the match back. sorry you had to explain this much but
High MMR isn't even real. I have 1000s of hours and die probably 80 percent of my games, but apparently am still in the sweat zone of high MMR where I absolutely need to be slugged apparently.
If you're a killer and you're not going for your adept, I think you're a dick for slugging. Just find the hatch and play the gate game. You're still probably going to get the 4k more than half the time.
Well if you can't take the heat it's time to get out of the kitchen. Slugging isn't fun for you but being looped endlessly isn't fun for the killer. Both part of the game. You could use unbreakable if your not already. Other than that, ye just take a break.
3 k is a win and if you close the hatch you're probably going to get a 4k anyway. Just take the win and get to the next match.
Who gets looped endlessly in this game anymore?
What if I'm going for my adept, can I use UB then?
Could say that to survivors that tea bag by the gates. Except 3k doesn't give anywhere near as many points as 4k does....
Beginner players? People who go killers not suited to loops? People looking to try new builds? There are some very very good loopers out there and some very very poor killers that can't keep up
I mean someone 'abusing' something and losing is far different from 'abusing' something and winning. Killer Mori system still had bleedout wins, even if they didn't get the Mori. Survivors were losing attempting to 'abuse' self-pickups.
Besides all your sarcasm, I indeed think killers should consider the fun for their opponent in some situations (survivors should so too, don't get me wrong). If the killer mobbed the floor with the survivors, and earned many many points with them, then (extended) slugging the 4k can be very unnecessary. You already proved you are clearly better than the survivors, no need to rub it in their face by being extra sweaty to guarantee a meaningless 4k. It's just an ego thing as this point.
So if you are not required by some daily or challenge to slug to find the last, pls put back your ego, hook the second to last and take the gamble for hatch. Hatch escape is still a crushing win for the killer, what more do you want?
Unironically, if the game would be changed somehow to always let the last survivor out, it would effectively remove slugging for 4k entirely. If one surv is guaranteed to get out, killers won't need to use tactics for "ultimate defeat".
I agree with everything you said basically.
I just wish the game rewarded us for doing it.
We just had a free weekend and influx of new players. Tell me you don't care about newcomers without saying that you don't care about newcomers.
Oh and @mizark3? Abuse is abuse is abuse. I don't care what it resulted in. If it was done to grief, it was abuse. Both the Mori basekit causing more slugging, and unbreakable basekit, were griefing… and both were quite abused.
I don't think you understand the nature of competitive games. The fun comes from striving to be the best. Most people, growing up, learn some game from a parent (or both); mine was Chess. There is that moment of disgust and anger that comes when you get good enough to figure out that they are taking it easy on you. Almost all of us say the same thing, "I can win on my own. Don't do that." The pride and joy comes from that first real win, that victory wherein you know you beat them on your own. Nobody wants pity. You and your opponent will always know the truth on some level and it grates upon the pitied person. It is a insult, albeit one that supposedly is born of kindness.
A competitive game is just that, a contest where both sides give their best in the attempt to win (or achieve the objective). It is disrespectful of your opponent to dumb down the game for them. It is the same as saying, "don't worry kid, you will be ready for the real thing someday. Until they I'll carry you because it pleases me to stroke my own ego." Your opponent doesn't want fake wins. They want to earn it. They will be overjoyed if they are doing well up until the moment they figure out you are toying with them. Your intentions don't matter; the road to hell is paved with so called "good intentions." I would consider it an insult to be treated as such, and thus I try not to insult my opponents thus.
The fun of "competitive" games is in striving against adversity, to overcome and achieve. You bring your own fun with your mindset. Your only responsibility is to bring your best for your opponent, and them do the same for you. You only get out of game what you bring into it. Your fun, and their fun, must be brought and maintained by the respective parties. If you don't find fun in the contest itself, hard and stressful, you are playing the WRONG sort of game. There are countless games out there that are not competitive or at the very least, are not Player Versus Player. There are cooperative games. There are games against AI designed to be no harder than you, yourself, set the difficulty slider. Do you get my point? Two generations of people playing video games wherein they get to "set the difficulty" has evolved a mindset, a sense of entitlement, wherein many Players think they get a say in how difficult their game should be, even when matched against other Players. Hubris.
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This is a pretty generous interpretation of EGC. It's 2 minutes by default. The only way EGC is lasting 4 minutes is if you slug. A player goes through both hook stages in 2:20. At which point you've gotten a kill.
So basically no matter how you slice it, allowing a slugged survivor to speed up their dying is going to affect slugging as well as EGC.
But survivors have no problem tea bagging at the gates waiting for the last survivor to die or for egc to expire. They wait the time out happily, it's been a very very long time since I seen someone open the gate and escape or even try to save the team mate. So why is it they are ok to wait out 4min at the gate and not wait out 4min being slugged? Speeding up bleed out timer might help a few people move on quicker but most would hang around the gate regardless.
The countless matches I have encountered where survivors deliberately tea bag at the gate and hide out not doing gens in 2 v 1 scenarios really doesn't give me much sympathy for people waiting out 4min.
The solution was final mori, so depending on how they've changed it, you might get an answer in september.
Unbreakable pickrate decrased , which is why sludging is at an all time high.
I think scott's idea would fix all issues whit sluging:
https://x.com/ScottJund/status/1770484204251369592/video/1
Ok, so when someone calls someone else a "stinky-poo-poo head" and someone else says "X person should never have been born and X person should (Terms of Service banned phrase)", they are just as mean spirited as one another, as they both are verbal harassment. Maybe that strict black-and-white thinking is your view, but most people can say the spree Killer with 500 Kills is worse than the spree Killer with 5. Yes they are both killers, but one is clearly worse.
Edit: Also, editing in an '@' doesn't notify the person. Not sure about replies, I think they also don't notify them also. Just for future reference.
This is just a test if a reply quote in the edit notifies someone or not.
Edit: It doesn't seem to let you hit "Quote" at the end of someone's post to put in an edit or copy it from the comment to transfer it over.
crawl away
crawl to a teammate
crawl to a hatch spawn
I feel like you misunderstood. I'm not saying that one is worse than the other or should be considered the exact same severity, I'm saying that whether or not a Killer slugs me to bleedout and I am the only one they get, OR they slug all four of us to bleedout, it still feels bad when they humptech me. Whether or not the Surv team wins the round, if they abused that locker glitch that happened last year, it still felt bad and it was still abuse.
Therefore, if it's the case that both Killers abused the original finisher Mori to be annoying, and Survivors used the antislug ability to create uncounterable free self pickups to be annoying? That's still abuse of intended mechanics on both sides. Using mechanics solely to annoy or cause the other side grief is griefing. It's in the name. THAT is what I mean by "abuse is abuse". Nobody here was talking about whether or not those things are equally offensive or problematic or whether or not you win doing them, after all plenty of players find Knockout and Flashbang annoying without those being perks that win games or even are problematic at all arguably. What people are saying and what I am arguing is that both concepts needed to go back to the drawing board.
In that PTB, Basekit Unbreakable was abusable. It WAS abused to annoy Killers. That's why we can't have it, it's too easily abusable. Basekit finisher Mori as it was, was abusable. It WAS abused because it encouraged slugging for the Mori. That's why BHVR reworked it to what is coming soon, so Killers are less encouraged to slug for Moris.
and the last two survivors tend to hide because you can’t get anything done and you get slugged whilst the killer goes off the find the last survivor. Sorry but there’s no need to delve into anything - it’s perfectly obvious why killers do it. Because it’s easy and both things need addressing.
First of all, whataboutism.
Second, not every survivor does this.
Third, you've given up your argument entirely now. If they're teabagging, then no one is slugged or hooked and EGC is at most 2 minutes. If two minutes is so atrociously bad to wait out, then you're fully agreeing with me that 4 minutes of bleeding out is far, far worse. And there should be a way to reduce the bleed out timer.
First off, with a definition so specific that 'using mechanics solely (emphasis mine) to annoy or cause the other side grief is griefing', then nothing can ever be 100% confirmed to be 'abused' without a self-report. Even the bleedouts for Mori attempts were advancing the cause of the Killer winning eventually, despite ranging from ultra annoying to actually impossible (in most of soloq) to deal with. The problem is that many things come at a cost. Heck, blinding at a pallet and teabagging mid chase denies distance, so that helps Killer, and WSWS wastes time spent hooking (or donates a blind save), and helps Survivors. The only time they don't come at a cost are the last Survivor or exit gates. That's why I think a 'damage assessment' is important when saying something was 'abused'.
Part of the problem was that it wasn't uncounterable. Some people just threw their hands in the air and gave up while declaring it to be uncounterable. I was able to counter those 'attempts' while barely any thought put into it. The only maybe, was if RPD was still the singular map (instead of split), with the 3rd floor library, or Badham when basement isn't in main. They fixed RPD, and they can fix Badham by forcing 2 hook spawns when basement isn't there (one in the bedroom, one in the basement stairwell room). So ultimately no abuse exists here when a singular Killer can always counter it.
I guess the most confusing thing to me is I have no clue how 45s self-pickups were annoying or uncounterable. I just hit the spacebar and hooked them like in a normal match. Even Breakdown wouldn't prevent the 2-3 hooks accessible from the corners of each map. Heck, they couldn't even pop the gen in that corner they were attempting it, or it would give Killer a free win by either bleedouts or the server close. It required too coordinated of a 'seal team 6' styled clock-SWF that the match would be over in 3 minutes anyway.
You clearly haven't understood what I said. In my experience literally every single match where the team escape, the team will wait by the gates regardless of what is going on. If someone is slugged half way across the map the other survivors wait by the gates and tea bag. That is waiting 4min by choice for the players at the gate. It usually happens when I go a killer I'm not familiar with so end up losing badly but survivors will wait out the timer fine when they are the ones winning. They only don't like it when they are losing. I don't mind waiting the 2min or 4min (I have to wait that time regardless because I can't move on to the next game until the slugged survivor dies) but the point is survivors choose to wait when they can escape.
This has been my point for a long time, last 2 survivors basically forfeit the match by agreeing they can't complete the objective (gens). So instead of risking it, getting killed and moving on they hide and wait for pitty hatch escape. They have lost but still want to get the win. So I slug them and make it clear the match is over, 4min bleed out, match done, move on. Far better than the alternative of have 2 survivors hide for an hour until server end time runs out (which they again choose to wait out just fine but have an issue with 4min being slugged?)
So, sort the hatch situation out which will sort the 2 v 1 stand off situation out, which will trickle down and reduce the slugging situations.
I'm a killer main who hates slugging. The reason it's so popular is because killers are insanely vulnerable when picking up or carrying survivors. This is in addition to actually hooking taking quite a bit of time on the killer side. Hooking advances the game state for the killer, but at the cost of reducing pressure on survivors. And if you pressure hard enough you achieve a 4 slug which is effectively an instant win.
Most of the save mechanics are not super powerful on their own, but the fact that there's so many puts killers in a lose lose situation. Any time a survivor goes down near a locker, a pallet, or an open area, hooking becomes a pretty big gamble against competent players. It's lose lose all around because most survivors can be pretty easily countered by looking at walls, but really good survivors can make hooking not a viable strategy.
Personally I do think survivors should be able to pick themselves up at the cost of a hook state, but only after being on the ground for 60 seconds, similar to the hook stage timer. This might suck for killers in some ways, but it makes for a healthier game overall and they still need to spend a minute on the ground to unlock the option.
Maybe for the last two survivors. They could have something similar to what 2v8 had, whereby a survivor on death hook can pick themselves up. I wouldn't normally be for something like that but with the Finisher Mori on the horizon I'm anticipating the whole 'slug the second last for the 4k' will worsen. I get why basekit UB didn't work out when tested but a less impactful version might work.
Can someone explain how basekit Unbreakable was abused and didn't work out? I'm having a hard time understanding that. If killers are doing their job, a survivor shouldn't be on the ground long enough for them to get back up, right?
