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Should endgame for DS Off the record work again?
I am actually sick of killers getting away with a lot of stuff when it comes to endgame like if they can have blood warden terminus noed and no way out I feel Ike survivors should be able to use DS and off the record in endgame because killers need to learn how to earn their way for a kill not just handed to them because killer mains feel bad or some type of way that they can’t get a kill during endgame it’s stupid
Answers
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No
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I‘m not a big fan of perks deactivating in endgame, but I don‘t know. I hate the conditions those perks have, so I don‘t use them.
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Indifferent on that one. On the one hand, I understand why it was done that those Perks dont work in Endgame.
On the other hand, I feel that Killers really should not think that they deserve some pity Kills just because they were losing the game and let it happen that 5 Gens were done AND the Survivors opened the Exit Gate.
But then again DS in Endgame is basically a guaranteed escape (even tho more deserved than a guaranteed Kill in Endgame).
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That would also mean survivor would get a free escape for simply the kill not deciding to play efficient though?
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it doesn’t matter because killers should earn a kill and not just given to them because they lost the game when they can’t stop survivors from doing 5 gens
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No, it was really bad design to have an unwinnable situation with an open door.
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To be fair, the game was winnable for the Killer the whole time until then.
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How are they given a kill? The game doesn't end just because the gens are done. Perhaps the killer decided to play for hooks. Should they be punished somehow because they got a lot of hooks but didn't choose to kill someone outright at the beginning? Perhaps 1 or 2 survivors were already dead before the gens were done. In this case they aren't really losing at all. It's still a close game.
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Yeah it was but unbreakable/ds removes the counterplay from either perk which isn't good.
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The main reason DS should deactivate in end game:
Do you really want it to become normal that killers stand over survivors for 60 seconds waiting out a possible DS?
OTR would be fine, but OTR seems pretty good as it is, making it stronger doesn't seem necessary.
Beyond that, there's nothing inherently wrong in an asym that the killer gets something that the other side doesn't. It's easier for a killer to get a kill in end game, that's not too different than hatch. Both are mechanics to keep players involved in the game.
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I didn’t say the game ended because 5 gens done go back and read my post I specifically said if killers are able to use noed no way out blood warden and terminus then survivors should use ds and off the record for end game which means killers should earn their way for a kill since they didn’t stop 5 gens from being done but at end game they should just get good and earn a kill in my opinion
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well that’s not the survivors fault if the killer can’t earn a kill because you just have to get good in my opinion at least bring back off the record in end game
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Considering that the devs and community keeps pressing killers into playing fair which inherently means survivors dont get to use their intentionally overpowered perks that are meant to make efficient unfair strats as hard as possible earlier into the game, it's a bit unfair to hit fairplay killers with DS.
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Thats how the game works, yea. If survivors arent being efficient thats how the killer gets a free 4k.
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The point of Endgame builds is that the Killer sacrifices potential hook states during the early and midgame to get a huge power boost at the end similar to an "all or nothing" playstyle.
For every endgame perk brought is one less slowdown/chase/aura perk which should make the completion of gens faster and looping easier. If a Killer with an Endgame build reaches Endgame with multiple hooks, that's on the Survivors for not doing gens fast enough.Completing 5 gens doesn't mean the game is over. Completing 5 gens just means a different phase of the game has begun.
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Considering how much people hate slugging as is, this would be a horrible idea
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No.
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If a killer catches someone during endgame, they did earn that. It then becomes on the survivors to earn the save or escape. There are reasons these perks had to be changed for endgame. By themselves they are strong but paired with other perks it becomes a free escape. Sometimes a guaranteed escape.
I use to run ds, deliverance, and unbreakable just for this scenario. It almost always ended in me getting out plus the survivor I would save off hook. Even if I lost deliverance early on. That was just one combination and I'm sure there were more. The killer couldn't do a single thing about it.
Every thing you mention above has requirements and can be deactivated. Noed has always been one that can be disabled before it ever comes into play. It also shows itself when it does come into play. I still don't really like playing against this perk but it's tolerable these days.
Blood warden is on a time limit and can even be circumvented by not opening the gates right away or by leaving before someone is hooked.
Honestly, terminus I'll give you. I only played against it once but it was after an already unfun match. So it has a 100% not fun rating with me still. Didn't think it was strong just didn't enjoy it at the time.
Endgame perks for killer are also limited to endgame. Leaving the killer with less throughout the match All of those survivors perks can be used at some point throughout the match if needed.
Survivors aren't without endgame perks. Adrenaline and hope being the biggest that come to mind. With that being said, at least one base kit survivor mechanic becomes extremely strong during egc just like camping/tunneling does. Which is body blocking. In the right hands it can lead to a hook save and everyone escaping.
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That is where your logic is wrong.
It is not a "pity" kill. In order to get into that state, a survivor had to be hooked to begin with, so it is now on the survivors to get the survivor out, or escape without them, it is not a pity kill, if anything those perks working endgame are a pity escape.
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A pity escape after completing the objective, soso…
If those Perks dont work, the Kill is basically guaranteed, unless the Killer plays really badly. And for some reason Killer players think they deserve a Kill, because it is Endgame.
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Blood Warden and NOED were done with the endgame in mind, and until endgame comes the killer have no perks.
If you want a fair comparison, then make DS and OTR only work in endgame, they cannot be used before.
You okay with that?
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Eh, the way I see it if you made it to endgame you either didn't get tunneled, or the killer tried and you giga outplayed them and basically carried the game for your fellow survivors.
I'd rather see the game reward that more properly instead of going "whoops you didn't do a lot of gens and altruism while being chased all game so no pip for you, and you died so that's a hockey-loss for you :^)" personally.
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There is a saying of "It ain't over until it's over".
Repairing generators is not the survivor objective. Until the survivors cross the gate exit line, or the remaining survivors are dead, the game isn't over.
The reason for DS and OTR being disabled in the end game is to make it so there is still a game to play. It's the same reason that hatch exists when the killer has killed all but 1 survivor with multiple gens still to do. It's also the reason why closing the hatch powers the exit gates. If it didn't, there is no point in playing on, the game is over and the survivor might as well just give themselves up.
If you give survivors DS and OTR in end game, it is literally impossible for most killers to defend their last hook. Survivors just trade hits for the unhook, and the unhooked player body blocks for everyone else as you all hold W to the exit. Allowing DS and OTR in end game means there is basically no point in playing further once the gates are open. It's the same reason Adrenaline was nerfed, there is no game to play if a full survivor escape cannot be stopped.
It's times like this where your bias tends to undermine any credibility your argument might have had. You're basically saying it's OK for survivors to have multiple chances to escape via hatch, gates being powered on hatch close, and have tonnes of second chance perks at all times that can make it a sure fire escape once the gates are powered... but killers have only one chance to win, and if the gates are powered then the killer should always lose...
I shouldnt need to tell you that if the survivors objective is to escape, having something that basically guarantees an escape is not good game design.
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Man, you call me biased while I even wrote before that I am indifferent on that. I even said that I understand why the changes were made, yet I still think that if a Killer is failing all game they should not get a guaranteed pity Kill. (And before someone comes around - I also consider Hatch a pity Escape, but a necessary evil)
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Very much dependant on the killer. Maybe Bubba/Trickster etc literally guarantees a kill, but against the majority of the cast you can double save and you're home free.
Perks like Borrowed Time and maybe Babysitter also basically guarantee an escape if played properly, and that's not disabled in endgame (nor do I necessarily think they should be either).
I think endgame saves are in a pretty decent spot with the 10s basekit endurance. Very possible, but more risky.
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So why is the killer's "pity kill" not a necessary evil?
I disagree with the notion its a "pity kill" to start with, the killer caught this survivor. If the survivors want to save them, there needs to risk attached to it... otherwise its a pity escape... the Killer might as well not bother hooking...
Like I defend both killer and survivor, but when you say something like "hatch is a necessary evil, but survivors should have second chance perks to guarantee their escape cause the killer has already lost", it's hard not to call you biased...
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Man²…
The thing is, Killers think that they deserve this Kill in Endgame because there is "nothing they can do". While they had the full game to kill all 4 Survivors. This is my point - do you really deserve that kill if you failed already for roughly the whole game?
And yes, the Hatch is the necessary evil, because games need a way to end, whether it is with a Hatch Escape or starting the EGC when Hatch is closed. While guaranteed Kills in Endgame are not a necessary evil, since the game at least ends (regardless if the Killer got any Kills or not).
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But this where your argument falls down, because even without DS and OTR, it's not a guaranteed kill. It's still entirely possible for all of the survivors to escape. We still have a game.
With what you want, there is no game... you want the killer to basically stand in the corner once the gates are powered and admit defeat.
As I said alraedy, the objective for survivor is to cross the line... not complete the gens. The killer hasn't "lost" until the survibors are over the line. As such, you shouldn't have perks that guarantee you cross the line with no counterplay the killer can employ.
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You call it part of the game, yet you think it is good that they are disabled for part of the game. Why is it still part of the game for the Killer, but not part of the game for the Survivors?
(I dont think we will reach a conclusion, so I am happy to agree to disagree)
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The killer downing and hooking somebody in endgame doesn't mean he's trying to get a pity kill. It's not something they deserve or not, it's something they achieved - whether they'll confirm the kill or not depends on the situation and what the survivors do.
The game doesn't end when all gens are done, it just moves onto a different phase; a phase where the killer logically cannot patrol gens, so it does make sense for the anti-camp meter to be turned off. Just like the killer has the chance to risk going to the gates or defending his hook, the other survivors have the chance to risk going for the unhook or guaranteeing their own escapes.
As you acknowledged, something like DS working in endgame can effectively be absolutely uncounterable in many situations. So DS not working in endgame doesn't mean "granting the killer a pity kill"; it means "not granting a survivor a pity escape". No DS in endgame still allows the survivor team to plan an escape, but it also allow the killer to have a chance at getting a kill too.
Saying that the killer should stop trying to get kills in endgame because they had a rough start is like saying that a football team that had a rough first half of the game should just give up, and if they're trying to score in the last few minutes it must be because they are entitled to winning. The players should all try their best until the end of the match; in DBD, the game doesn't automatically stop after the last gen is done, and there are many perks on both sides that only activate after this happens, so there's nothing about the game's design that suggests that finishing gens = end of the game
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You say this as if only these two survivor perks deactivate in endgame, but a lot of killer perks that could still be useful to the player (like Nowhere to Hide) deactivate by design once endgame is reached. Both sides have their fair share of perks that only work while gens are still up, and other perks that only activate once gens are all done. It's a good idea to always bring at least one of those endgame perks with you so you have "weapons" until the very end of the match
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but the reason I say it's fine for these perks to disable is because they are powerful perks with a very strong effect. In the early mid game they greatly help in reaching the end game, but there are multiple facets to the fight over gens in the early and mid game, so the perk isn't out and out OP throughout the mid game.
In the end game, running to the gate is the only part of the game left, and these effects are far too strong for that objective, especially when survivors already have plenty of tools, such as body blocks, flashlights, sabo saves, etc, etc that the killer has to get through... not mentioned the fact is there are potentially 4 of them in play, not just 1...
Borrowed Time is fine, cause the effect isn't as strong throughout the game, and in end game it's not a guaranteed escape.
Coming back for an unhook for the survivor team is a decision the survivor team makes, knowing the risks. They can take a safe 3 man out, or they can play risky and go for the 4 man out. If you allow these perks with effects that make the risk a moot point, you make the game more boring. Everyone just runs OTR, like they did for Adrenaline.
Adrenaline has more argument for it's strength, as its a one time use specifically at end game... but the guaranteed escape there is still a valid argument even against that... so for DS and OTR, there is absolutely no argument at all... their effects are far too powerful to be even considered remotely fair.
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Survivors should have to earn their escapes, not just get lucky with their perk.
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why because killers couldn’t get a kill so all of our perks disabled at end game when killers get to have their end game perks? Make it make sense
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The survivors finishing all the gens is intended to happen, on average, in most matches. If the desired kill rate is 60%, then the devs want the gens to complete in most matches resulting in a killer tie and 2 (close) escapes. Since the gates are meant to open in the majority of matches you cant say that its because the killer didnt get a kill; they probably did and the gates opened anyway. And they might've gotten another if survivor didnt run X perk back in the day so its good they dont work in endgame.
Edit: plus if we want to talk about unearned kills/escapes, by your logic hatch is dumb and should be removed.0 -
You know what the tradeoff for that gameplay at the end is? Ding ding ding, a horrible gameplay before because he plays without perks at all.
People that actually use 4 of their perkslots to make an endgame build should be rewarded for that, there wouldn't be any point to play like that otherwise.
Ps before I forget: Using ds and otr in the endgame to get out is also not "earned". He even played without tunneling because you still have ds and otr is such a long duration that it's a 100% escape even at the other side of the map on 90% of the killers. So you shouldn't speak about things like earning kills or escapes with that perk-combination.
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I can make that make sense.
You're comparing endgame perks on the killer side to throughout-the-match perks on the survivor side. After all, it's not all of the survivor's perks being disabled- just two that would be problematic if they got to work in the endgame. The missing piece of the puzzle that makes this make sense is that survivors have endgame perks too.
Adrenaline, Hope, No One Left Behind, and Wake Up are all endgame perks, those aren't disabled- just like the killer's endgame perks aren't disabled either, because that's what they're designed for.
Nothing should be guaranteed in the endgame. There should be perks to help, but they shouldn't provide free win conditions for either side. No killer perk should guarantee kills and no survivor perk should guarantee an escape. If you were to argue that some killer perks do guarantee kills - and I'm on the fence about this, I think there's some issues here but it's usually down to bad luck more than the perks themselves - then the only logical conclusion is that they should be changed, not OTR and DS.
Post edited by jesterkind on3 -
Its not a "pity escape" for completing the objective. The survivor got caught and is on the hook. The "objective" of the survivor is not to complete the gens, the objective is to escape, so the survivors have not yet "completed their objective"
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Its still the same exact scenario though. The survivor got caught but then is rewarded with a free escape because they get basekit BT and a 4 second stun on top of it basically getting you out the gates against most of the roster. Direct the same energy towards the perk that could LITERALLY allow for the same thing.
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true but the only reason they changed it is because killers was having a issue at winning at and game and complaining about it that’s the reason it’s changed not because they wanted it to be balanced it’s because they wanted a kill at least that’s why
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No guarantee kil
no guarantee escape for survivor no guarantee kill for killer but then again it’s not making sense think about it. Yes no one left behind adrenaline and hope are not disabled and same with killer end game perks that’s not disabled but tell me this. How come if the killers side like Noed terminus no way out or blood warden what happens if a killer tunnels you until end game and you have to defend yourself?? At least they should make off the record in end game work because basically they just giving a killer a way to get a kill because he or she is trash at the game and can’t win because you have to have it the easy way without earning yourself a kill mad get good at the game that’s the point I’m trying to make here
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Most of my dbd matches with friends or with randoms no one hardly runs bt perk as much anymore it’s like you on your own type thing my point is that what if your getting tunneled since the beginning of the match and comes end game there’s still tunneling and what if you can’t defend yourself because off the record or ds is deactivated. Tbh idc if DS is disabled at least have off the record work in end game so you can defend yourself from off the hook. I just feel like killers need to learn how to win even tho they use perks to help them as much as survivors do but no one talks about terminus noed no way out or blood warden I mean if they need that to help win the y game why not at least have off the record work in endgame?
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I'm not sure I'm following?
If the killer's trying to tunnel you all the way to end game… you have DS and OTR. The killer's tunnelling you before the last generator is done, which means those two perks are still active. Even if you're hooked afterwards, everyone else on your team can bodyblock for you to get you out.
In this scenario, if you had DS and OTR, you'd be guaranteed an escape. That's bad. But in this same scenario, the killer isn't guaranteed a kill, so the situation is equal. Both sides have an opportunity to win here.
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