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Hatch needs to not be a win-con anymore.
there are lots of 2v1 take hostage and slug for 4k threads and here is mine, with a solution too.
first, yes. it's a win-con. saying "hey, hatch doesn't count as a win actually ☝️" doesn't change the fact it literally does count as an escape and people are trying so hard to get it to the point 2 people hide until other gets found for tens of minutes, taking the killer hostage.
second, both parties are equally to blame for the situation. saying killers do it because of ego, greed or whatever while also saying survivors can't be expected to throw themselves at killer's face, it's their job to survive etc is insanely hypocritical and even manipulative. killer is just as much entitled to their 4k as survivor is to getting hatch, if not even more so.
third, most take hostage issues can't be handled in a fair manner because of hatch. ability to give up on the floor? no, robbing the killer of their kill cannot be justified.
fourth and most importantly, it's the SOLE reason 2v1s are unplayable. why should you do a gen without any info what the other survivor is doing? if i cared about escaping i wouldn't touch a gen before i see that gen symbol next to other survivor's name. and getting found while doing a gen isn't very preferable compared to getting hatch, obviously.
here is the solution, very simple too. hatch getting used or closed results in instant death of the survivor. either via them tping to a hook or transition into the finisher mori.
- hatch doesn't spawn with all gens done
- hatch spawns a few minutes after 3rd survivor dies
- and done, easy.
that would allow making very large quality of life changes against take hostage situations like giving up on the floor, survivor automatically dying if killer lets them wiggle over and over, improved afk crows etc.
hatch doesn't need to give "hope" to survivors so they don't give up. it's clear where and what kind of playstyle that hope leads to.
Comments
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I'd rather keep hatch how it is than switch to your idea. The problems I encounter are rare fringe cases, your changes would make every match worse.
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they need nerf survivor's stealth capacity in late game and buff stealth in the early game/throughout the game.
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First, yes. it's a win-con. saying "hey, hatch doesn't count as a win actually ☝️" doesn't change the fact it literally does count as an escape.
According to the game, an escape does not necessarily translate into a win. Escaping through Hatch is a net 0 gain/lose of MMR, meaning it neither counts for or against you, it is neither a win nor a loss.
Hatch spawns a few minutes after 3rd survivor dies
"We want something to prevent unnecessary stalling of games since it wastes everyone's time," followed by, "Also lets make a mechanic that stalls out the game since I want an extra Kill."
I dont see how this incentivizes players to stop hiding for Hatch, in fact, I think this just makes it worse. Players would just be incentivized to go ahead and find a hiding spot since they will need one to wait for Hatch to spawn anyways.
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Or better idea, what if in the scenario where there's only two survivors left. Something appears in the basement that if survivors interact with it for X number of seconds it spawns the hatch open somewhere on the map. This helps with the reality that if you are the last two survivors you are doomed by giving the killer another place they need to patrol and gives an alternate path to victory for survivors that's not totally hopeless.
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How does letting the Hatch spawn MINUTES after the third Survivor dies solve anything? All it does it give more time for the Killer to find the last Survivor, which will just result in said Survivor hiding. Which is the same as now.
So if a Killer slugs for the 4K, you have to potentially wait up to 4 minutes until the second to last Survivor is dead and THEN you still have minutes before the Hatch opens, which would drag out the game even more.
And I hope that " hatch getting used or closed results in instant death of the survivor." is just poor semantics.
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Yeah this isn't a fix to make the game better. There's no accounting for why survivors get stuck not being able to progress the game, and attempting to remedy it. This fix just makes getting a 4K much easier, whilst tilting the game's balance further towards the role of killer.
I don't know how to fix the hatch, but I can guarantee that it will involve more than just changing the hatch itself. There's no easy fix for this problem.
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Survivors can always progress the game, just that they decide not to because they think they will lose by doing it
Forcing them to participate in the game IS the way to fix this issue, and it doesn't make a single sense to nerf killers for doing their job
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i knew i shouldn't have come with a solution, the topic got thrown into the depths of the forum, oh well.
how exactly would they make matches worse? i just can't see it so i'd like you to give examples.
survivors don't need their stealth nerfed outside of taking hostage situations, and that doesn't need to come with a compensation buff.
an escape does not necessarily translate into a win.
shoot, i stand corrected. okay, escape =/= win. but people still want to get hatch escapes and cause the problems i mentioned.
I dont see how this incentivizes players to stop hiding for Hatch, in fact, I think this just makes it worse. Players would just be incentivized to go ahead and find a hiding spot since they will need one to wait for Hatch to spawn anyways.
how and why would this make survivors even more incentivized to play for hatch exactly? they hide in their hiding spot until other gets found to what, jump in hatch and die? i'd understand them doing it out of spite but this makes no sense.
"We want something to prevent unnecessary stalling of games since it wastes everyone's time," followed by, "Also lets make a mechanic that stalls out the game since I want an extra Kill."
you pointed out the same thing so i'll respond at once. the "minutes" is just like 2 or 3 minutes and that's only in case that the last survivor is about to get all gens done. almost finishing gens but getting killed by killer closing hatch wouldn't be fun.
And I hope that " hatch getting used or closed results in instant death of the survivor." is just poor semantics.
no :) hatch shouldn't be this appealing. people are rightfully saying survivors shouldn't do gens in 2v1s because hiding for hatch is the smarter way to go, you should see the issue here. without a legit reason to hide for hatch, there won't be many people doing it for extended periods except griefers.
There's no accounting for why survivors get stuck not being able to progress the game, and attempting to remedy it.
2v1s are winnable. obviously not from 3 or more gens and not as easily, but they aren't as impossible as you try to make it out to be. have you heard of looping? stealth repairing? pre leaving? you can so easily last for an entire gen against half of the roster. you just need the other person to actually try, and that's only possible if hatch escape isn't an option.
how does hatch address that issue also? does the possibility of getting hatch make the situation "winnable"? what happened to "a hatch escape isn't a win"?
I don't know how to fix the hatch, but I can guarantee that it will involve more than just changing the hatch itself. There's no easy fix for this problem.
if you take people's reasons to get a hatch escape (or to prevent it) there is no problem anymore. seems easy to me.
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idk, they need to do SOMETHING. survivors' best bet can't be hiding until other person(s) get found and die lmao. this wouldn't be bad either, but wouldn't really make selfish players actually try. they don't do gens, why would they go to basement and try doing that ritual thingy?
it's sad how people accept defeat so easily. i for example got **** on in 2v1s so many times.
also, you think game is unwinnable in 2v1 but does your teammate? how can you guarantee someone else doesn't think game becomes unwinnable once someone dies, and starts hiding? god hatch is so unhealthy for the game, hiding and doing absolutely nothing can't be a win condition in a team game.
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no :) hatch shouldn't be this appealing. people are rightfully saying survivors shouldn't do gens in 2v1s because hiding for hatch is the smarter way to go, you should see the issue here. without a legit reason to hide for hatch, there won't be many people doing it for extended periods except griefers.
Yeah, this will make me take you not seriously at all anymore when it comes to this topic. Not only does your solution not solve any problems, but it is basically "remove Hatch", because there is not really a point in having Hatch when the Survivor dies anyway.
So at this point your solution is that if the Killer gets a 3K, the remaining Survivor will be auto-killed. I dont think there is any point in discussing with you anymore.
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i still don't see a meaningful counter argument just insults. auto die? well yes, if there is no chance for them to win and they are too much of a baby to accept defeat, game should make them lose at that point. killer isn't there to babysit survivors that refuse to play the game just to not die and hide for half an hour.
but it is basically "remove Hatch", because there is not really a point in having Hatch when the Survivor dies anyway.
lots of people (very likely including you) told people hatch is only there to end stalemates. i typed all the way down this thread why it shouldn't be a hope and a win condition, you can refer to them.
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it is up to game to be balanced in such a way that the player cannot take the game hostage. it is not up to player-base to police itself and attempt ban people. there is under no condition that killer player should ever be stuck in the game for 30-40+ minutes searching for last 2 survivors unable to kick the hatch to get to the end game. Yes you can disconnect but this is not realistically good solution to the problem.
Killer can slug and go for 4k's but this at max is 4 minute wait time for a survivor to die. This is still long time but at least it comes to an end eventually. this part of the game is also not well designed but that is large topic towards hatch itself and exit gate rng.
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Removing hatch is also a possibility. It would give more accurate kill stats and discourage selfish playstyles. It might also help encourage a better rework for keys(and by extension other items and perks).
It can be fun to get that rng escape, or have something to consider a win when the team loses badly. There isn't really such a thing on the killers' end though, but the roles are different I suppose.1 -
- hatch doesn't spawn with all gens done
- hatch spawns a few minutes after 3rd survivor dies
- and done, easy.
so they have to hide for "a few minutes"???
i thought yall didnt like wasting people's time.
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They need to keep the hatch. The only thing they need to change is that you can open the gates and hatch together. Now you run around looking for the hatch first. If killer finds it you go for the gates and the killer comes too.would be better if you can choose
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The best 'fix' for Hatch is to revert it's spawning logic to the pre-Mikaela version, but with the post-Mikaela Keys. That punished tunneling with draws instead of wins, and still forced Survivors to pop gens to get Hatch to spawn. Post-Mikaela Keys prevents the insta-open that was the problem. Finally if one person ratted out of a Hatch without their teammate(s), then the match still ends with the EGC (although I would extend the gate timers by 5s per gen remaining).
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Killers slug for the 4k because they feel like Hatch is an unfair RNG mechanic. Simply removing the RNG from hatch is also an effective method to reduce slugging.
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hatch would mean death anyway so there will be nothing to hide for. and again, it should be like 2 or 3 minutes of waiting in case the last survivor is able to finish the last gen(s).
people would gather somewhere else and take others to hatch while killer is just trying to play the game normally so the problem with old hatch wasn't keys. as fun as it was for survivors, old hatch was one of the most obnoxiously unfair things in this game.
i think you mean hatch offerings, but there might be a gate across the map killer won't make it to in time, or straight undefendable gates even if survivor doesn't get on one instantly. and of course there is s🤢le survivor so killer still is risking the escape and will slug for 4k if they are aware.
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Players can also participate in the game by actively trying to lose, but that doesn't mean they're going to do that.
Survivors hide at 2v1 because progressing their main objective (gens) does not translate into acheiving their objective (escaping) and therefore ceases to be the main objective.
In order to get survivors on gens in a 2v1, you need to make it contribute to their chances of escape. That can't happen if the next survivor to go down is guaranteed to be slugged and therefore lose any chance of escaping. So the reason it doesn't contribute to escaping is due to one thing; slugging for the 4K.
Slugging for the 4K is the real problem here, and it stems from this entitled attitude that if you've earned a 3K then by default you deserve an easy 4K. That's BS. A 3K isn't a 4K.
A 4K should require more effort to achieve than a 3K, it is a 25% higher score. What form that effort should take is up for debate, but as it stands with the hatch mechanic in place, that effort takes the form of beating the last survivor to the hatch, which considering is purely RNG and both parties have the same information, is completely fair. It probably favours the killer more often than not.
The problem is killers have a more reliable way of tilting these odds dramatically in their favour and they've been accustomed to it for so long that the thought of thosing this dramatic advantage seems like an unfair nerf.
Slugging for the 4K needs to go. How do you do that? Some way for survivors to pick themselves up in a 4K slug scenario is the only viable way. Make it so hooking a survivor is a more reliable method than leaving them slugged.
We all know the basekit Unbreakable that was tested is a no go, but that doesn't mean there is no way of implementing it that would work. If survivors only gained this ability when all of them were on the ground, then it wouldn't affect regular slugging, and 4K slugging would be inherently riskier.
If 4K slugging is gobe or at least not the most reliable method and therefore not commonplace, then in a 2v1 scenario, it is viable for a survivor (particularly one with hook states left) to play distraction while the other does gens. This progresses the game, it allows the killer to progress their objective by potentially outplaying the survivors and downing them, just as they've been doing the whole game so far.
The killer is not at a disadvantage here, they're simply not afforded a gross advantage, which is what forces the last 2 survivors into hiding.
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changes I see this causing:
- survivors play even more sweaty
- kill rate inflates, so BHVR potentially gives basekit killer nerfs to compensate
- more games where people give up, making the time you spent in killer queue wasted
- fewer survivors playing the game, so ridiculous queue times for killer
I'd love more survivor teammates to tryhard in my games and I'd love basekit killer nerfs to make looping for 5 gens even more consistent, but I assume you wouldn’t want to wait longer only for your game to have a greater chance of people giving up.
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To be honest I don't think there is any wayto solve this issue via hatch. The only way I can see solving this problem is to add a generator progression/chase timer to the AFK crows.
From the last point where no generators were being progressed, a 90s timer starts. If survivors as a team fail to collectvely progress generators by 20 charges over the course of the 90s they all automatically gain a crow tier. This timer is automatically reset to 0 whenever a survivor enters chase.
Something like that is the only way I can think to counter perma hiding.
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It's not a wincon, that's the point. It automatically opens when there's only 1 surv left precisely because BHVR (and any player of good faith) considers 3k to already be a killer win. Should something be done about these pesky killers slugging for the 4k? Sure. But that doesn't change this fact.
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It was unfair to counter unfair in this worst case scenario for Killer. I'd say that breaks even, not even going into the good scenarios I previously listed, and didn't list at all. Hatch isn't a win, its a null/draw. It is (in the current game environment) and was (spawning logic) fine. Keys were the issue without an interaction bar.
Now if you wanna complain about 'Hatch standoff' old Hatch, I'm with you, but pre-Mikaela Hatch was the best for the game thus far.
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Survivors hide at 2v1 because progressing their main objective (gens) does not translate into acheiving their objective (escaping) and therefore ceases to be the main objective.
this is my whole point. with advantages of hatch gone, they simply lost the match if they are unable to achieve their only objective. which should be fair, right? there should be no another chance they could get by being useless and griefing other people, mainly their own teammates.
In order to get survivors on gens in a 2v1, you need to make it contribute to their chances of escape.
doing all 5 gens powers exit gate switches they then can activate and escape the trial.
Slugging for the 4K is the real problem here, and it stems from this entitled attitude that if you've earned a 3K then by default you deserve an easy 4K. That's BS. A 3K isn't a 4K.
yes it is not. if the last survivor still manages to achieve their goal, they can escape. if all their teammates died at an unreasonable number of gens that you would say one survivor cannot be expected to repair by themselves, then killer clearly deserved the 4k.
Slugging for the 4K needs to go. How do you do that?
by taking their logical reason to do it and that's the risk of last survivor getting hatch.
you are talking like those "consequences" will make me shake in my boots. in contrast to issues it causes, those seem mild even when you exaggerate them.
sweaty? i'd like survivors to try if they want to win, regardless of the side i'm on. also like, what survivor that wants to win the match doesn't sweat because hatch exists?
kill rate inflates, so BHVR potentially gives basekit killer nerfs to compensate
i'm not in favor of hatch skewing data just so killers don't get nerfed. i don't even like them acting on meaningless stats. for example, sm had 70% kill rate but if that translated to them as she is too strong and not just unbearable so if they just decide to weaken her instead of making her less frustrating to go against, that will be a bad idea. same thing is true for hatch, they need to interpret data wisely.
more games where people give up
i'd much prefer people give up instead of start playing for hatch. it's the exact same thing, but this way they won't take anybody hostage. normal people won't give up earlier than before if hatch is no more, trust me.
fewer survivors playing the game, so ridiculous queue times for killer
tell me about doomsday posting lol, at least i want to believe survivors don't play the game just so they can get hatch.
this should accompany for sure, but getting rid of the legit reason people hide for hatch/slug for 4k is still seem a more guaranteed solution since then why would people want to waste their time?
editing this, since it's clear bait.
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this is my whole point. with advantages of hatch gone, they simply lost the match if they are unable to achieve their only objective.
Kinda stopped reading here to be honest, this reads as:
"Survivors should just give up when I want to win"
A 2K is not a win. You are claiming survivors should give up and forfeit the game when 2 survivors have been killed.
The game is not over until it's over. Survivors have not escaped until they are physically across the exit line, which is what makes EGC kills fair game. That's why we have things like NOED, Blood Warden, No Way Out. Until a survivor has actually escaped, they can b3 killed.
This goes both ways.
Until you have actually killed a survivor, that survivor is still in the game and should have a fair shot at escaping. You have not already won the game (4K) just because you've scored half your objective (2K).
The fact that the game mechanics as they currently stand leave survivors with no viable recourse for escaping when down to the last two survivors is a Design Flaw, it is not a Feature. That flaw needs to be address, by giving the last 2 remaining survivors a viable avenue to continue their objective of escaping instead of forfeiting being their only option.
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You are claiming survivors should give up and forfeit the game when 2 survivors have been killed.
looks like you didn't start reading the thread to start with. no, if they want to win, they need to try not forfeit.
not to be offensive, i read past that point but can't respond to any of them because it's apparent you didn't read anything past or before that line you quoted. i didn't say none of the things you claim i did, i don't know what you got those from.
The fact that the game mechanics as they currently stand leave survivors with no viable recourse for escaping when down to the last two survivors is a Design Flaw, it is not a Feature. That flaw needs to be address, by giving the last 2 remaining survivors a viable avenue to continue their objective of escaping instead of forfeiting being their only option.
you see 2v1s unwinnable and think any other scenario without hatch means free kills but 2v1s especially at a low number of gens are winnable, you just can't expect to win them with a hiding teammate or at 3 or more gens.
killing survivors early (generally with a tunnel) gives gigantic advantage to the killer and makes it much harder to win for survivors that goes without a doubt, but buffing survivors in 2v1s isn't the way to go to tackle this issue (since that would punish non tunneling killers and noone wants that), taking care of tunneling is but that's a whole another story.
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according to mmr, a hatch escape = a draw, not a win, per se
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What about not automaticly opening the hatch when there is 1 survivor left. But instead have the opportunity to open the gates and also the hatch. So you can choose your way out. (now you first have to find the hatch before the killer, if he closes then you can go open the doors) . It should be simultanious. Let some sign show you where the hatch is,but make it opening with a (small) timer instead of just an open hatch.
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