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increased hook timers is a bad change
title. the reasoning used in the dev notes to defend the change was because it’s supposedly needed to counteract the fact that camping was made easier due to the added +10 seconds to gens (a change that was made an INCREDIBLY long time ago, by the way. it has been over 2 years). but this reasoning doesn’t factor in the fact that gen regression has been nerfed heavily since they added time to gens.
70s hook states will give survivors more time to work gens, more time to reset and move in to trade, more time to apply reassurance. this overall makes killer pressure worse, which simply just does not need to happen in the game’s current state.
Comments
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Gen regression doesn't factor into camping.
70s hook states will give survivors more time to work gens, more time to reset and move in to trade, more time to apply reassurance.
If the killer camps, yeah. That's the point. An anti-camp change is not supposed to spare camping tactics.
this overall makes killer pressure worse
Not if you don't camp.
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the issue with “haha camping is le bad so your entire argument is actually also le bad” is that camping, when used correctly, is a valid strategy.
example, i play wraith, one of the best strats you can do is hook someone, leave the hook and injure multiple people hopefully the entire team, and come back to force 2nd stage, since nobody can trade if everybody is injured. increased hook stages will hard nerf this strat because survivors will have even more time to reset and prevent you from pushing 2nd. i’m arguing that this strat does not need a nerf, it already has counterplay as any decent player already knows.
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the issue with “haha camping is le bad so your entire argument is actually also le bad” is that camping, when used correctly, is a valid strategy
We've heard this for so many years and it's still broken AF and awful for gameplay.
Camping got a hard buff back in 6.1, now it's getting reined back in a bit.
example, i play wraith, one of the best strats you can do is hook someone, leave the hook and injure multiple people hopefully the entire team, and come back to force 2nd stage, since nobody can trade if everybody is injured. increased hook stages will hard nerf this strat because survivors will have even more time to reset and prevent you from pushing 2nd. i’m arguing that this strat does not need a nerf, it already has counterplay as any decent player already knows.
This specific tactic also got buffed a while ago with the medkit nerfs, so you're still way better off than you were. Also, I wouldn't call ten seconds a hard nerf. But hey, if you really can't deal with this strat anymore after this change, maybe play the game as intended, eh?
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camper no camping
camper no camping?
camper no camping!
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let's not use "camping" as an excuse when yall would just try to kobe in front of the killer just in order to go next anyways, making this change barely noticeable, this change will literally be noticeable the most in high skill matches even with no camping since a survivor with actual skill knows what hook pressure actually means.
And anyone presenting this change as anything about camping definitely has very bad understanding of the game.
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'This tactic is so broken that it makes people quit the game. Imma complain about measures taken to counteract it.'
Forum killers, man.
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"i DC because xy = killer is OP because of xy" is the worst and most incorrect analogy i have yet to see in this game
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Yes because generator defence got nerfed from now till then. Now the generator perks need to be buffed.
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Gen perks constantly get nerfed because many people can't seem to play without four of them in their loadout and still tunnel/camp.
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Just like survivor cannot seem to play the game without Med-kit Red syringes and Deja vu gen-rushing.
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I think it's a great change tbh. Whenever I see a survivor hit second stage or die because of the timer, it's usually because of Solo Q uncoordination or active meddling from the killers part that I don't think should be encouraged aside from a couple context dependent instances.
The extra 10 seconds isn't groundbreaking, but it lessens an annoying scenario as survivor without really changing strategy or gameplay on the killer side of things.
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ofc it isn't groundbreaking against average survivors who don't know what hook pressure is
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The only bad thing about this change is that it was not done at the same time they increased Gen Time.
If your strategy involves camping basically every time, you will have it harder, yes. But I think most Killers will not notice the difference and it is one of those changes which get complained about and is never mentioned again after a week.
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"killers chase power is too OP because i don't wanna learn how to loop them" kind of analogy :D
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Oh, so survivors are bad for not wanting to have to pull off all kinds of extra stunts to counteract a killer going AFK at hook, but it's fine for killers to throw a tantrum when they don't want to adapt to their free kills coming in 20 seconds later.
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Lol. How often does that happen compared to killers with a loadout of 4 gen perks.
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average killer actually looks for way to adapt, while all i see from average surv when they lose miserably is DC/hook suicide and then go for a -rep on killer's profile.
So tell me which side is the pettier one then
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It's weird that they didn't nerf camping directly by making the anti-camp meter fill up faster but nerfed the time, which affects everyone who isn't camping.
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In my experience, it's harder to keep a survivor on the hook for 60s than it is to get them off... The number of survivors who beeline to the hook and unhook after just 12 seconds to give the killer the option of a free tunnel boggles my mind.
No personally I'm all in favour of changes to buff killers in chase and make them more dangerous, in exchange for making lame strategies like hook camping less effective.
I imagine your less mobile killers will struggle, Pig for example really loves a hook trade... but maybe we can start getting some more buffs for her if her performance dips 🐽🙏
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We really out here complaining about a perk that doesn't even make up for the time it takes to get to a marked generator
The reason it's so popular is it turns the progress bar green and because you don't need to buy a survivor to get it. It's not some ridiculous OP tool of gen rushing.
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Yes it is. remember entire excuse for why survivor are getting 10 second hook time is generator taking 10 second longer for camping. Deja vu makes generator take less time for no downside, almost free revert to old generator times.
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💀 how little I see these types of builds in my solo games is crazy compared to how every other game is a tunnel and camp fest even with killer running ultimate slowdown; my last game of the night yesterday was a blight with pain res, grim and pop and my guy was just rushing back to hook
why do we always go to the extreme to try to prove a point. You’re not seeing syringes every game. You’re not playing 4 man deja vu teams every game. You’re probably not even facing legit swfs that aren’t simply friends who want to play together and not 4 people who are determined to win
Doesn’t deja vu save like 5 seconds? I promise the 1 random bringing this perk is not losing you the game. The 1 random with a syringe isn’t costing you the game. If a single survivor with a syringe is giving you so much trouble that you lose the game then it’s probably you….
people run deja because it feels good to see the progress bar glow but it’s only 5 seconds man, it’s not that great. You can spot a 3 gen without it so it’s also not that necessary. Hell, when I do run Deja I usually don’t even spawn near a red gen and realize I’ll waste more time running to one than just working the one closest to me
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Saying it is only 5 second is same as killer saying that hook time is only extended by 10 seconds. those few seconds make all different in the match. anyhow i give up on argue on change. the patch notes show no cancellation of said change.
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even if deja vu increased repair speed by 6% on all gens it would be mediocre at best. deja vu gives a bonus 6% gen speed. having a single stack of thanataphobia decreases the gen speed by 2% for each survivor, so 8% total slowdown. having one stack of dying light reduces 3 survivors repair speeds by 3%, which decreases gen speeds by 9%.
literally having just 1 stack of either of those two perks provides enough slowdown to offset the net difference in gen speed from one instance of deja vu - and those perks can get 10 and 11 stacks respectively (yes, thana technically only gets 4 but it provides the slowdown equivalent of 10 stacks) if you want to say deja vu is an OP gen rush perk, you necessarily have to hold that those two perks are even more powerful as gen defense perks. I think we both agree that would be silly to try to claim.
add that to the fact that deja vu doesn't give you 6% on the unmarked gens, and imo it's quite clear it's not the OP tool you're claiming it to be
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What if another reasoning for this change is specifically to make hook trades and forcing a second stage harder to achieve? I have not seen that written anywhere as intended, but taking the entire surv playerbase into consideration (not just the ones who do know what they're doing) it could make sense. The average surv doesn't like going into second stage no matter what the reason is.
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Ah yes. a mediocre perk in top 5 perks of the game.
Gen-speed perk are easily the strongest way to punish camping in the game. the extra 10 seconds enables you to do gen before friends against camping killers. the whole excuse is that they added +10 second to generators only to realize that no survivor is actually doing 90 seconds gens. they're 84 and 79 second gens. I see the perk enough to critic about it.
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if only i had explained that the reason it's so popular is because it's free and feels like it helps even though it makes little difference.
i guess there is the other benefit I didn't mention: it's autopilot for avoiding 3gens by telling you what gens to get done early, similar to how Windows is autopilot for knowing where to go next in chase, so it is helpful for that. still, not a gen rush perk in that case since running between gens takes more time than the amount of time saved by the perk.
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isn't this data also dependent on the people putting in the data?
best to just wait on BHVR's data…
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This change won't affect your hook pressure.
In fact, the argument given is an argument for it INCREASING your hook pressure, if anything. I think a lot of players might need to rethink what their understanding of hook pressure is, because it has nothing at all to do with forcing hook states. Your pressure comes from the fact that you're taking one survivor out of the action and forcing another to come for the save, and you maximise that pressure by also occupying a third survivor by going and chasing them.
If they're leaving their teammate on the hook for longer, that's more time for you to maximise you hook pressure. The only way this lessens your hook pressure at all is if you think the pressure comes from forcing hook stages… which is camping, and this change is meant to weaken that.
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Looking for ways to adapt?
Because I don't see adapting in this thread.
Deja Vu shaves off 5 seconds, and only on marked generators. So you do get an extra downside, and you don't get the entire time loss back.
But if you wanna play it that way, why not bring in Monstrous Shrine and make hook timers take 58 seconds?
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The person you're talking to is playing the game as intended. If it weren't intended, it would be impossible.
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This always gets trotted out whenever a change is made people don't like.
But did it occur to you that perhaps this change is also intended?
EDIT: Also, 'if it weren't intended, it would be impossible' is a really dumb take in general, on account of emergent gameplay, bugs and glitches. Especially in DBD.
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Y’all are grown adults T_T stop arguing like children neither are right now drop it
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What are you talking about? I don't care about the ten second thing. It's fine. My issue is with you claiming that wraith player just playing the game is somehow playing in an unintended fashion. That's flat out wrong. It seems like you just want killers to not have options or play how you want. They're just playing hit and run. It's hardly a bug or glitch or whatever. It's a play style that's been in the game for six years or whatever. If it were unintended they would have somehow made injuring different survivors impossible. Which is ridiculous.
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Except camping for the extra hookstate is part of the strategy he was talking about, and that's getting nerfed now, so clearly it's not intended to be this strong. And if it becomes completely unviable, then it's evidently not intended at all.
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When survivors are greeding gens it's good play to secure the hook state. Giving survivors extra time to reset doesn't mean it is unintended. It just means they want to make it easier. It's not a black and white thing. If they didn't want people to do it they would simply make it impossible.
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Raising the hook timer isn't the best thing either, I agree. However it's the easier fix sadly until BHVR starts properly balancing killer powers and maps.
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Scrolled to fast, looked like crash bandicoot. New killer confirmed???
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Deja vu & Resilience was among highest pick-rate perks in dev data as well. I am lazy to go back to old dev images but i believe deja vu was 6th most used in dev stats. I do not remember pick-rate of resilience. it was either #4 or #8. they show pick-rate of perks after Made For This was nerfed.
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🤣🤣
Crash Bandicoot chapter in dbd. Anything possible
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On paper the increased hook timer shouldn't be too much of a problem, but now that I have seen it in practise, it feels like the killer has little to fall back against prepared survivors. Like clockwork one gen after the other is falling, and they most stay injured to gread their Resilience to the max. having now all the time in the world to let their friend hang from the hook just a little longer, and if you manage to apply some pressure, down/hook three and hunt the last, one of the slugs under gurantee has UB.
This is the kinda games I am facing right now basically constantly and besides tunneling I really have no answer to the pressure the survivors mount up on the killer these days. Sure, sometimes the game throws pups at me, but thats usually apparent within the first 2min of the game, but against serious survivors its pretty miserable.
I am sure that some clever one will quickly jump in and claim "uwu .. .you just got one bad game against UB and now come crying", but I assure you, thats not whats happening here.
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Strangely we actually got what was on that paper. Nothing has changed for us (a person was even left to go into second stage again at that). Whether or not it's because we're getting potatoes after being away for so long we don't know, but survivors aren't being any more efficient than before (they weren't less either though bar that one game).
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What mental gymnastics is this where standing by the hook for 60 seconds is supposedly some giga brain play? Go chase someone off of a gen and they don't even make that progress.
This is the exact scenario that increasing the hook timer is supposed to target: make the killer think that maybe, just maybe standing by the hook for a full minute or more is probably not the ideal use of their time.
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Yeah, I've been saying since before 6.1 released that hook times should be matched to gen times. This is a good step in that direction, even if I still feel it should be 90 seconds.
Still, this is the first time ever that hook times have been increased since the game launched. Gen times have gone up at least twice, and long, long before hook timer was changed. This was way too overdue.
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The Hook timer was 45 seconds until about halfway through 2017. It got changed with the same patch they removed instant gens and 0 Hook moris.
Still the first change in AGES but it's still funny to think about.
I think 90s hooks would be far too long, that's the same time as a generator. Increasing the hook timer by the same amount the gens were increased is a good spot imo.
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Killers mad because survivors are doing gens while they’re doing nothing next to the hook 😱😱
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Oh that's a long time ago then. I looked for details but I can't find info on the wiki or otherwise about previous objective times.
I know originally gens were 60 seconds I think? So I just assumed 60 seconds hooks were always in play.
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my dear brother in Christ, neither you or your average killer player you are playing against will notice this change. However, players on higher skill level will be severely impacted and surprise, it has nothing to do with camping :D
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If you're looking for anything related to generators, look on the wiki's page called "generators". If you're looking for anything related to hooks, look on the wiki's page called "hooks". It's that simple, really.
Generator repair requirements:
- 1.0.0: 65 charges
- 1.2.1: 70 charges
- 1.5.0: 80 charges
- 6.1.0: 90 charges
Hook stages:
- 1.0.0: 45 seconds each
- 1.5.3: 60 seconds each
- 8.2.0: 70 seconds each
Not sure how you couldn't find any of that, it's not hidden information.
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From what I can tell it didnt do anything. Nothing gameplay wise has changed because of 10 more hook seconds.
Stop camping1
